Supercilious Pain in the Nether Regions Post (Caut

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wdcav1952

Activities Manager Emeritus
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Thanks to R2 for providing the title for this post. From one occasionally good bloke to another, I appreciate his input.

A former adversary on this site whom I now call a cyber-friend asked me about my forays into corrections with regards to spelling and grammar. Once I explained my thoughts on the subject, this person suggested that I explain my rationale in a post. Although I delayed the post, I was inspired to post this due to the ill-will I received from some members engendered by my posting with respect to Armacielli’s post. First off, unlike some members, I only claim to speak for myself rather than the entire group. Second, if I offend Armacielli by using his post to illustrate my reasoning, I apologize without reservation.

Armacielli identified himself as a college student, and in an earlier post identified himself as a Forensic Science student. Now I understand that television shows do not imitate reality to any great extent. However, I do believe that a forensic report submitted to a court with numerous mistakes would not be helpful to the DA’s case. Christian stated that he had a disabling health event at an early age. If so, he is to be congratulated for recovering and showing the determination to make it to college and being accepted into a demanding course of study. Also, if I unknowingly teased him without any knowledge of the issue, I again apologize. Still, Christian likely knows better than most that he has to produce excellent work to succeed in his chosen field of study. OK, enough picking on Armacielli.

A number of people here are interested in selling their pens. On occasion, this will involve presenting a bid, talking to the person who possibly could be ordering a significant number of pens, or other interactions with potential customers. I will have to ask you to trust me on this one; there are people out there who pay attention to the details of business. I have been given resumes turned in on torn out spiral notebook paper written in ballpoint ink. I do not think I am the only employer who chose to discard a resume such as this. I also do not think I am the only person who believes that you should be able to spell the name of the pens you are marketing. Trust me, there are people out there who know how to spell Emperor.

What on earth does this have to do with pen turning? Most of us spend an inordinate amount of time turning our pens, checking our results with a caliper, sanding and micro meshing to a near-perfect surface, and finishing to the longest lasting highest shining finish we can achieve. Would you show up to present your pens in a torn turning smock with wood shavings in your eyebrows? My question is this: Why not show the same care in your use of the English language in your presentations?

To return to R2's question, if I tried to correct all syntax, grammatical or spelling errors I would have the highest posts count possible to achieve. I try in my own way, perhaps gratingly at times, to occasionally point out errors in hopes of inspiring someone out there to improve their way of presenting themselves to others. Is it fair that some employers and/or buyers judge you by your appearance and manner of speaking? In a word, no. Does it happen? Of course it does, and it always will. So, just like many of us are constantly striving to improve our pens, well you get the idea.

As noted above, I speak only for myself, and do not claim to express the opinions of others.
 
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Very well spoken. I agree with what you say and please feel free to correct anything that I write. I sometimes type way too fast and don't proofread before posting.[:p]
 
Cav, I can appreciate your post and its good intentions. My best friend (and his 17 year old daughter) used to continually try and correct my grammar. They both gave up! I am what I am. Has this hurt me financially? I am sure it has. I can turn a screwdriver, troubleshoot a circuit, check a 90 degree angle by eye and do other mechanical things my intellectually superior best friend could not possible do. We graduated high school together way back in 1974. He graduated number 4 and me, 781 out of about 1000. I drove him crazy and he drove me crazy. What’s the point of all this? I cannot change him, he cannot change me, but we still enjoy each others company after all these years.
 
OK, I had to do that and because Cav is a friend he knows how it was meant. I agree completely with what you said. There have been times in the past couple of years when I couldn't even figure out what the poster was talking about because of typos and bad grammar.
 
Cav,
Being spelling and grammar challenged, at times I struggle in the forum. Being corrected for the most part is appreciated and at times it is fun. There is a fine line where people can feel picked on and I am sure at times humiliated. Being correct in spelling and grammar does nothing to show the personality behind the words. With you and I, as the saying goes no blood no foul. But when people do not know the personality and intent feelings can get hurt. At the same time for those that have a great command of the English language can probably find my rambling to be just as frustrating.

Is there a solution? People should not take things personally until they know the intent or personality behind the words. Many of us know someone that is known for hard cutting words. The funny part about that is once I got to know the person and personality behind the words I found that the blunt words were just that, someone calling a spade a spade as they see it and no malice was meant.

What is all my rambling about? Simple, people try to ready too much into things and have thin skin and take offence to things that are not meant as it was perceived. In other word chill out and enjoy the forum!:D

Oh and Cav, nice note even for a dentist![:0]

Mike
 
Originally posted by wdcav1952

Although I delayed the post, I was inspired to post this due to the ill-will I received from some members engendered by my posting with respect to Armacielli’s post.

I agree completely with your sentiments, Cav. I have a question for you, however. What does 'engendered' mean? (I'm being serious - it's sometimes difficult to tell tone on a posting, so I thought it best to make that clear)

My definition of 'engendered' doesn't fit your usage - can you give me a synonym? Seems like a good 'word of the day' to learn! :)

(And for those of you who don't try a word-of-the-day, I suggest you try it - or at least a word-of-the-week! My class and I certainly had fun with it!)
 
Just a follow-up on Cav's posting. Grammar and spelling are incredibly important when applying for one of those job things. I personally pitch any cover letter/resume that makes me cringe! Proper use and attention to details in your presentation will directly affect how you are perceived and what people will think you are capable of doing. Please do take it seriously!

I'm just glad their is never been nothing for Cav to get after me for!;)
 
Cav I really do appreciate what you have had the courage to say and I am grateful that you apologised to Armacielli.

As a teacher I fully recognise the importance of spelling and grammar and take personal care with what and how I write. However, no matter what the critics may say there are people, even intelligent people, who because of the influences in their lives find spelling and grammar difficult,

I think I may have mentioned in another posting that all people learn their mother tongue, first and foremost in the home, and then later through the influences of common community usage. School should at least try to bring all children to an understanding of standard rules and accepted usage. It doesn't always happen. In some cases the influence of family and community is so strong that no amount of rule learning will overcome "incorrect usage".

There are of course, other problems people have with language. Being a non- native speaker is perhaps the best example. Neurological insult is another.
In my case I have suffered some hypoxia as a result of surgery. I try hard to be vigilant but sometimes I just have mental blocks and things slip through. (Eyehpoe tnghis getbteer)

I am not making excuses for cases where accepted standards are not met. I do, however, believe that an understanding of language acquisition and some tolerance towards mistakes is needed.
 
Well said, Cav. I wouldn't buy anything in a jewelry store that had typos and grammatical errors on the box. Anyone looking to buy a high end pen falls into two categories:

1) People who don't care about grammar/spelling/context/etc., so there's no harm in making sure that the presentation is well-worded.
2) People who do care about grammar/spelling/context/etc., and those are going to be lost sales.

Now, as far as everyday conversation, errors irritate me personally, but that's just me, and I make my share of them so I have no room to talk. I think that as long as a person is at least making an effort to learn, they'll get better eventually, but there's always going to be a learning curve that may never straighten out.

The best writers and authors I can think of still rely on editors and proofreaders, otherwise they'd never publish anything, and none of us has the luxury of having a staff to catch a boo boo. At least paying attention to the inline spell checker here can keep most people out of trouble, although contextually, 'can have you bunch of a context words out of', and the red squiggly lines won't save you. Yoda could type here all day and nothing would seem amiss. :)

Maybe a good solution would be to enable the red squiggly lines in the posted message, rather than just the input boxes used while creating a post. That way when someone posts an error, it's there in the public eye for all to see, and the person might be more inclined to edit the mistake. heh...that'd take some pressure off Cav! Anyone who actually leaves a word misspelled would then be fair game for a good word nerd thrashing. [:p]
 
Cav ha<s>d</s>s corrected me <s>several </s> many times and I never <s>tokk a fence</s>thought he was mean cause him still my favoritr prisen dentest.
 
Now that the foolishness is out of the way,I was reared in a house that spoke 4 languages,my dads english was very broken but his Spanish and Italian were beautiful,my mom had the thickest New York Jewish accent you could have and both sets of grandparents spoke no english.This is not an excuse its just the fact that I picked up bad habits early in life.Environment has a lot to do with some of our grammar and spelling.Cav I consider us friends so you go right ahead and continue to correct my spelling and grammar,at my age I'm still learning every day.
 
I fully agree with you Cav. However, I have become somewhat of a hypocrite in my criticism of bad English, spoken or written. I was fairly good at one time. I used to correct my English teachers in HS and even college back in the mid '60s (I could prove it and I was a little arrogant too) and could diagram sentences with the best.

Having been in Japan for 23 plus years and fairly fluent here, it is hard for me to speak in English as fluently as I did pre-Japan. It is hard for me to construct sentences verbally and orally as I did in my younger days. The correct words just don't come to mind at the instant they are needed. There have been several times that I did not post something I started because suddenly I could not remember the correct word. At times it works, at times it doesn't.

This is not peculiar to me either. Many of my now retired co-workers warned me of this some years ago. Part of the problem is that we often intermix our work language with our native language. It is much easier to say "mikan" than "tangerine" or "eki" than "train station" in every day conversation even in English.

The grammar syntax of Japanese, or other languages for that matter, become ingrained to the point that natural usage of native languages become affected. Many people from different churches that I visit when Stateside comment that my wife and I are interesting and great speakers for missionaries. The point behind this is that many people who reside in other cultures very long see a decrease in native language ability. What makes it strange is that understanding the nuances of the native language are easy and this is noted by people; but the problem is that we can't always speak and write as well in our native language as we can understand. This often produces a puzzlement to others who observe this conundrum.

It is frustrating at times knowing that I know something is not quite right, but I just can't figure what it is or do anything about it - so I just give up and do nothing.

Even in other languages, these problems exist. The Osaka dialect is considered by other Japanese to be the laughing stock of Japanese dialects. However, the Osaka area people communicate much more effectively than those with perfect grammar and intonations. (That was learned from 14 years of experience in living there.)

I realize that some people don't care and some are just ignorant, but some do, some want to learn and some try hard. I appreciate your striving to help. I also hope others take it in this light.
 
Originally posted by maxwell_smart007

Originally posted by wdcav1952

Although I delayed the post, I was inspired to post this due to the ill-will I received from some members engendered by my posting with respect to Armacielli’s post.

I agree completely with your sentiments, Cav. I have a question for you, however. What does 'engendered' mean? (I'm being serious - it's sometimes difficult to tell tone on a posting, so I thought it best to make that clear)

My definition of 'engendered' doesn't fit your usage - can you give me a synonym? Seems like a good 'word of the day' to learn! :)

(And for those of you who don't try a word-of-the-day, I suggest you try it - or at least a word-of-the-week! My class and I certainly had fun with it!)

Andrew, as well as the others who have posted on this thread, thank you for taking the time to post. (Even Roy and Gerry. :D ) Andrew, your comment that tone is difficult to tell from the written posting is an excellent point. From Dictionary.com I got this definition for engendered:

v. tr.

1. To bring into existence; give rise to: "Every cloud engenders not a storm" (Shakespeare).

2. To procreate; propagate.

v. intr.
To come into existence; originate.

Although perhaps an awkward word choice, I believe it fits.

Lee, as I do not speak a second language, I was totally unaware of the points you raised, and find them to be fascinating.

Karl, your two points summarized my entire post with a LOT less reading. Thanks for saving reading time! ;)

Again, whether people agree with me or not, thanks to all who took the time to post as well as those who took the time to read.
 
Originally posted by leehljp

What makes it strange is that understanding the nuances of the native language are easy and this is noted by people; but the problem is that we can't always speak and write as well in our native language as we can understand. This often produces a puzzlement to others who observe this conundrum.

Good post Cav.

I agree with Hank 100% especially the quoted part above. I've observed this to be true even in my native land (Philippines). I actually can write better in English than Tagalog/Filipino. I speak well, but my written local language (Tagalog) is plain awful! I figure the same is true with some "local" Americans.

You may not believe it but the official instructional language in the Philippines is English. We have more English subjects than Filipino (from elementary to college). Students are (in a way) forced to learn it "properly" though I struggled with it and some of my lowest grades are in my English subjects.

I think some people take their language for granted sometimes (I am guilty of this too). Once they can communicate, they accept that as sufficient enough and not strive to perfect it.

Again, these are just my thoughts. No study to support it and I am not an expert. ;)
 
Cav,

What a great thought. I happened to stumble on this thread and found it fascinating. I always enjoy your "corrections," as I am a former English Education major in college. I gave it up to enter the high paying field of Law Enforcement/U.S. Military (I know, what DO I do with all that money?) I am a firm believer that a well written document will receive much more attention and credibility than a poorly written one. In my line of work, however, I am forced, almost daily, to acquiesce to the institutional writing "style" of my job and give up on the rules of modern English. It is frustrating, and I have at times argued with persons of superior position. I usually loose such arguments, but at least I fight the battle.
I also currently work in a multi-lingual area (I'm stationed in Germany) and have to have things translated back and forth from English and German. I know that it can be quite difficult.
All that being said, I have never come across a person who corrected grammer et al like Cav does who does it maliciously. When either myself or a co-worker get involved in a "language discussion," it is usually in good fun.
Thanks all, and thanks for this wonderful forum where we all can learn so much besides just how to turn wood into dust!

Don
 
Cav, very interesting and enlightening post. I agree with all that has been said, that the way we talk and speak has a great influence on the way we are perceived by others. I must confess that my fingers get tangled in the keyboard and I don't always proof what I have typed before I post so I figure I'm fair game.
Along the same line, something that grates on me here lately are some of the "new" words that are being used daily, such as "signage" and "functionality". If these are truly the correct form instead of sign and function, would someone please enlighten me.
 
Cav,
Thanks for the explanation of your position on written grammar and communication skills. More importantly, thanks for your tireless efforts to improve the writing quality of the messages that are posted here, and by extension of that effort, to improve the overall quality of how pen makers communicate with potential customers. Possibly I'm reading too much into your previous posts, but it is my observation that you take some pleasure in your avocation of promoting linguistic excellence; especially when you find the not infrequent opportunity to correct Ed.

Before becoming a copywriter, editor, and senior executive in the printing and publishing industry, I was a failed English teacher. I welcome your corrections to my posts. I pledge to be as precise in my IAP message writing as I would be in my opening letter of an annual report. No, not really, I'm just exaggerating for effect. I'll still make frequent perfunctory errors.

Your mission of convincing pen turners to be as careful with the details of their language as they are with the details of crafting pens is laudable. A well crafted and creative sales message envisages a innovative and well made pen; quality begets quality.
 
From the title, I thought this was a thread about me. Fortunately, it was a well-crafted set of observations for each of us to consider. Thanks, William (for it not being about me!). [8D]
 
Originally posted by MLKWoodWorking

Cav,


Is there a solution? People should not take things personally until they know the intent or personality behind the words. Many of us know someone that is known for hard cutting words. The funny part about that is once I got to know the person and personality behind the words I found that the blunt words were just that, someone calling a spade a spade as they see it and no malice was meant.

What is all my rambling about? Simple, people try to ready too much into things and have thin skin and take offence to things that are not meant as it was perceived. In other word chill out and enjoy the forum!:D

Mike

I totally agree with you Mike. When I joined this group I lurked for a while. Not only was I trying to soak in all the great penturning info, I was also trying to "get to know" the different personalities on the site. Anyone who reads thru the site can see that William, Al, Ed and sometimes even Lou [}:)];) among many others have great personalities and wouldn't intentionally hurt anyone's feelings. You might also consider, sometimes people are just having a bad day and may post or read into something that normally they wouldn't.

William, I'm glad you made this post. I have felt its been bothering you for a while. You can correct me anytime my friend and there will be no offense taken by me, Lord knows I need it[:p]
 
I know what Lee is talking about. I'm fluent in Russian. And while I don't use it every day, the effects are appearant in my life.

I can't write in cursive in English to save my life. And I can't print worth a damn in Russian. It's like a portion of my brain has said "okay, we'll let you do Russian in cursive and English in print, but that's it. No switching." I can read both ways fine in both languages.

Also, speaking multiple languages, you find words that fit situations better and if you aren't careful, you start using them all in one sentence even though the languages are different.
 
Originally posted by Dario
Good post Cav.

I agree with Hank 100% especially the quoted part above. I've observed this to be true even in my native land (Philippines). I actually can write better in English than Tagalog/Filipino. I speak well, but my written local language (Tagalog) is plain awful! I figure the same is true with some "local" Americans.

You may not believe it but the official instructional language in the Philippines is English. We have more English subjects than Filipino (from elementary to college). Students are (in a way) forced to learn it "properly" though I struggled with it and some of my lowest grades are in my English subjects.

I think some people take their language for granted sometimes (I am guilty of this too). Once they can communicate, they accept that as sufficient enough and not strive to perfect it.

Again, these are just my thoughts. No study to support it and I am not an expert. ;)
Not sure of your age Dario, But the education in the Philippines has appearently changed over the year. My wife and daughter are both Pinays (I think that's the right word). My wife's education was mostly in English (1960-70's). My daughter's (who was there for a year or so in her teens) education was almost entirely Tagalog (2006). She would come home with headaches from trying to keep up with what was being said (and she was fluent at the time).

I only know a couple words and phrases.
 
Cav,

As you know, your corrections are always welcome (even when misdirected):D:D:D:D

I have learned to ignore YOURS. But, then, I am a much more generous reader than you.;);););)

Seriously, thanks to all who have supported Cav. And to those who disagree, we hope to respect your right to appear stupid. Ain't America grate????
 
Good post;

I've often been told that my command of the English language is lacking at best.
I wish I had studied harder in English class instead of ogling the pretty girl that usually sat next to me. I try, to be correct but I'm not always successful and I don't mind being corrected. I already know of two major faults. My sentences tend to run on and on with no structure. And, I, tend, to, use, way, too, many, comma's, in, my, sentences. :D (note to self: Let's see if this one pushes him over the edge).

Of course this is all tongue-in-cheek because I consider Cav a "cyber-friend" and I know he can take some light hearted ribbing.
2008221172947_poke.gif
 
Cav, great post and well put. I've been fighting the same battle with my son. He has the worst spelling and grammar from any college graduate I've ever seen. I attribute it to one of his elementary school teachers that told us she doesn't worry about spelling, "computer spell checkers will take care of that". Now as an Army Officer I'm afraid it may hurt his career. Only time will tell.
 
Originally posted by Russianwolf

Originally posted by Dario
Good post Cav.

I agree with Hank 100% especially the quoted part above. I've observed this to be true even in my native land (Philippines). I actually can write better in English than Tagalog/Filipino. I speak well, but my written local language (Tagalog) is plain awful! I figure the same is true with some "local" Americans.

You may not believe it but the official instructional language in the Philippines is English. We have more English subjects than Filipino (from elementary to college). Students are (in a way) forced to learn it "properly" though I struggled with it and some of my lowest grades are in my English subjects.

I think some people take their language for granted sometimes (I am guilty of this too). Once they can communicate, they accept that as sufficient enough and not strive to perfect it.

Again, these are just my thoughts. No study to support it and I am not an expert. ;)
Not sure of your age Dario, But the education in the Philippines has appearently changed over the year. My wife and daughter are both Pinays (I think that's the right word). My wife's education was mostly in English (1960-70's). My daughter's (who was there for a year or so in her teens) education was almost entirely Tagalog (2006). She would come home with headaches from trying to keep up with what was being said (and she was fluent at the time).

I only know a couple words and phrases.


"Pinay" is a shortcut for Filipina and it is a common, accepted word.

I am not sure when the change happened but I moved here in 1991 and English was still the medium of instruction then. LOML graduated 1996 and it was still English.

It is possibly done by politicians to drum up nationality. While there is nothing wrong with that, I believe that being fluent in English helps a lot when you go after "international" job opportunities. Sadly, Philippines' main "export" is manpower and finding jobs locally there is almost near impossible if you are not "connected" or really exceptional. In this case they just took away a possible edge of the new graduates to compete outside. right or wrong move depends on how you look at it.
 
Here's my take William.

In my business a single misspelled word can ruin a job worth a few thousand dollars. So, when I'm at work, I take extra ordinary care to make sure that not only is every word spelled correctly but that every sentence is grammatically correct.

But, when I’m typing a reply on a forum, I’m thinking faster than my finger can type. This, coupled with the fact, that this Chinese keyboard still has not learned to type what I think has caused me a great many problems. I’ll give you an example, in the first sentence of this paragraph the word finger should really be plural.

Disclaimer: All grammatical usage, unique forms of spelling and punctuation, is considered this owner’s artistic license is the sole property of this writer and may not be used without due compensation.
 
Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA

Disclaimer: All grammatical usage, unique forms of spelling and punctuation, is considered this owner’s artistic license is the sole property of this writer and may not be used without due compensation.

ROTFLMAO.. I must already be very deep in hock to you Ron! [B)]:D
 
Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA

Here's my take William.

In my business a single misspelled word can ruin a job worth a few thousand dollars. So, when I'm at work, I take extra ordinary care to make sure that not only is every word spelled correctly but that every sentence is grammatically correct.

But, when I’m typing a reply on a forum, I’m thinking faster than my finger can type. This, coupled with the fact, that this Chinese keyboard still has not learned to type what I think has caused me a great many problems. I’ll give you an example, in the first sentence of this paragraph the word finger should really be plural.

Disclaimer: All grammatical usage, unique forms of spelling and punctuation, is considered this owner’s artistic license is the sole property of this writer and may not be used without due compensation.

Ron, having seen your work in person and having been very patiently taught some bowl turning techniques by you, you have a permanent free pass on any corrections. :D
 
WOW, I didn't know Cav was working on CHARGING for his corrections!!!!


Geeze, I don't think they are WORTH MUCH!!!!

(In fact, a few members have mentioned "worthless", but I don't know "less than what???")
 
Irony of the situation is that I'm the first one (especially when I was in High school) to point out a misused word. My mother is notorious for using "lay" in leiu of "lie", and every time she does I let her know. My Sr year of HS my Writing and Composition class had a jar where every time someone made a grammatic error the offender had to donate $.25 to the jar. B/c the class would decide how the collected funds would be used at the end of the year everyone was on the lookout for the slightest slip of the tongue. Eventually everything we learned was used to correct every violating member of the student body. So I'm no less guilty of grammar correction than you(but more in speach than in written form).

but I digress. I'm all about flawless fluency at school, and it's quite stressful. I knew I had made the majority of those mistakes as I made them, but I chose not to correct them b/c I come here to relax, not stress about my spelling. I even thought "I would call myself out on that post." as I posted it.

As stated, intended tone is hard to determine from the written word. Had a buddy of mine made the same comment in your intended tone. I'd have given him a playful jab in the shoulder. I misread your intentions, and from now on I shall take your comments with the appropriate quantity of salt
( consider this a playful jab on the shoulder)

Regarding my "debilitating health event" it is really a much smaller deal than it sounds. While it is indeed a miracle that I've recovered so well, I doubt I could find anyone who could tell that I've had any health problems w/o prior knowledge. As of now, the very very slightly diminshed mobility of the left hand is the only residual effect.the better side of having a brain tumor is that the state of Ohio sees it as a disabily and pays a very healthy portion of my tuition

So in conclusion, Cav, no harm done.
 
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Cav,
I've read through this thread with great interest... I've always gotten a kick out of your "corrections" and the ribbing returned from the "Correctee" or in some cases not so much ribbing.

When I graduated from high school some 48 years ago, you could have all the answers correct on an exam, and because of mispelled words or bad grammer, you could still not get a passing grade. It was a small high school, but the English language was considered very important. I learned to type on the old mechanical typewriters, so that when I went into the Navy and began to work in the communication field, it was imperative that we type correctly... often I would have to retype on teletype, a five letter code group message.. this was a message that conisted of 5 random letters, space, 5 random letters, etc.. across the line for 10 groupings, then return and repeat... one letter typed incorrectly and the message could not be decrypted. These messages could be up to 5 pages long, first page of 10 lines, second through fifth up to 20 lines per page.. I learned to feel a mistyped letter and still do today.

Chris mentioned that his mother often uses lay in lieu of lie... my mother was valdictorian in her high school in 1936, but her use of the English language has always been painful for me.

Hopefully, I can stay out of the line of your sights with my spelling and diction, but if not, I'll take your corrections with a sense of humor.
 
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