Scary Health Bill proposal

[ed4copies]

Rob,

I greatly admire your attitude and wish you luck.

BUT, nobody lives COMFORTABLY on $15,184 per year.

You can LIVE, but not very comfortably.

 

[Russianwolf]

I'm guessing you work for a very large company.

Nope, very small one that takes care of it's staff. 12 employees all together. They understand that taking the stress of something like this off the employees back benefits them in the long run (higher moral, higher performance, less distraction due to health worries, etc.)

Premiums aren't based on the Gross Rev, but I compared the cost to that since the tax penalty will be based on income or revenue. A better idea, would be that the penalty be a fixed dollar amount per employee in the company, but since when is the Gov. logical?

 

[ed4copies]

Then 12 people are creating 7.2 million dollars of revenue. You are very productive people.

THAT IS using technology WELL!!! And you deserve to be rewarded. And you, apparently, ARE.

ALL good things!!!

 

[rjwolfe3]

I greatly admire your attitude and wish you luck.

BUT, nobody lives COMFORTABLY on $15,184 per year.

You can LIVE, but not very comfortably.

But that's my point, you can live on it. You don't have to have all the fancy things that everyone wants. You need shelter, clothes, and food. Everything else is optional. There are so many people that want to live above their means. Instead of saving up to buy something they just whip out the old plastic and charge it. Then when they lose there jobs, and let's face it it could happen to anyone, then they can't pay all of that credit back. I am one of those people and I have just recently began to realize that. My wife refuses to work. She uses the excuse that there are no good jobs out there. But that minimum wage would come in handy when I am robbing Peter to pay Paul. I make a lot of dumb choices and I will be making more in the future but I am trying to learn from them and not run to the government expecting a handout. And for the record I have received government help and it was one of the lowest points in my life. When a man can't provide for his family it should slap him in the face and make him wake up and realize that things have to change.

 

[jimbob91577]

At my job I pay $78.91 every two weeks for my health insurance. My employer pays $413.44. I have a choice of several different companies or not having insurance at all. I also have the choice of having a Health Savings Account of which I have not partaken yet. To be honest my insurance sucks but it is better then nothing...

Amazing isn't it - between you and your employer, your cost of health insurance for the year is $12,800. Consider that for a moment - and then consider: do you get $12,800 worth of services a year from your health insurance company?

In my case that number is $13,250 - but I also have a $500/2000 deductible on health, with 80/20 coverage afterwards, and $50 deductibles on Vision, Dental, and Prescription afterwards - on my family so before the insurance kicks in I have to pay at least $500 per person up to $2000 for the family each year. Thus my total cost of insurance is anywhere from $13,250 if I don't go to the doctor, dentist, eye doctor, or have prescriptions - but typically runs $15,000-$15,500 a year after taking the kids to the dentist, mine and my wife's eye appointments, my prescriptions, and doctor visits and such.

I have an FSA that we use to cover most of the deductible amounts, but it still comes out of my pocket every year...

In my opinion the problems with the health care industry stem from government involvement, malpractice and malpractice claims/awards, and abuse of the system by people that shouldn't be entitled to it. I'm sorry if your country doesn't have good health care, I'd recommend that you work to change it, but please don't come to my country and expect to get free health coverage at the expense of me, my neighbor, and my children.

 

[Russianwolf]

Then 12 people are creating 7.2 million dollars of revenue. You are very productive people.

THAT IS using technology WELL!!! And you deserve to be rewarded. And you, apparently, ARE.

ALL good things!!!

how did you get to 7.2 mil? didn't think I said anything other than the insurance cost was 3% of Gross Rev. Don't think I mentioned any other numbers in relation?

But we do do well with what we have.

 

[rjwolfe3]

Yep, forgot about the deductible and vision/dental insurance. My vision and dental come out of my union dues which are about $18 every two weeks. I have thought about canceling it all and putting the money in something that I could invest but knowing my history I would just waste that money. And I know that my health problems could get worse at any moment.

 

[DCBluesman]

Don't let others interpret for you, educate yourself. The most current text of HR 3200 can be found here.

 

[rjwolfe3]

I have a relative that worked for GM for many many years and just retired. He did not do well with his money and therefore is having a hard time with his retirement. With GM's problems they decided not to pay for his dental and vision during his retirement. He is still too young to get other health benefits so he is stuck. However here is the kicker, he is in this predicament because of choices he made. Good or bad. Should he then expect the government to step in and cover for his bad money decisions? He has nothing to show for working all of those years except for a pile of bills and a house full of stuff that he still owes money on.

 

[ed4copies]

Don't let others interpret for you, educate yourself. The most current text of HR 3200 can be found here.

GOOD idea!!!!!

The table of contents is 12 letter-size pages, but the twelfth is just a few sentences. Shouldn't take long to peruse.

 

[Russianwolf]

Rob, don't get me wrong. I don't like taking handouts either. I gave up all my credit cards more than a decade ago because I realized how much trouble they can be. If I can't pay cash for something, then I don't really need it.

I myself, for myself, would never go asking for anything. When I was without insurance but had Cobra for my wife, I didn't even think about going to a doctor when I was sick. I gritted my teeth and went back to doing what I had to to get us back on our feet, working any job I could find. But when it comes to those you love the most, you ask for whatever help you can. I won't let my wife suffer because I'm too proud to ask for help.

The thing is, the original idea (which may not be what makes it through in the bill) was a rather simple Gov. organized health insurance plan that everyone would qualify for. This isn't a handout, but a mandatory pooling of people that aren't otherwise covered by employer plans. The reason it's mandatory is to so 1)everyone has coverage in case something comes up, and 2) the healthy keep the cost down for the sick.


Would you rather pay $100 a month when you are health, have a job, and don't need it so that you can continue to pay $100 a month when you get sick AND lose your job. Or would you rather gamble by paying nothing now, and when you get sick have to pay $500 per month, job or not?

 

[Rojo22]

The difficulty is, if the government offers you insurance, only if your employer does NOT, WHY would employers continue to offer insurance??

QUOTE]


Ed

I dont want to be inflamatory here, and I dont want to single you out, but this statement was one that was debated on the local news the other night. The bill loosely states that if you offer NO health insurance to your employees, YOU WILL STILL have to contribute money to a fund to support the government plan, and right off the top of my head i cannot remember what the percentage of the wages were but, it was a pretty steep percentage that had to be contributed by the company for not offering healthcare to their employees. This is the thorn they will use to make companies conform to the "not offering health care option".

 

[rjwolfe3]

Mike, pm sent!

 

[igran7]

Joe,
Do you honestly think the government will stop at that? If this passes, I can promise you that in my lifetime all health care will be government run. If you have no problem with that and you think our government (either political side) does a great job of running things then I feel for you..

No sympathy needed Rob.
Obviously if the government plan comes to fruition then it will not be the plan for you. Your current plan may actually cost less, because generally speaking, competition breeds better prices for the consumer.

Nobody is suggesting that a government health plan is something everyone must partake in or else...It is merely an alternative to the existing health plans offered. If the government plan saves the consumer X amount of dollars then the big insurance companies will have to compete within the same general amount or go out of business. I suspect they will choose to compete which will be better for all of us.

I was in the military for 8 years, worked as a law enforcement officer for the government and as a police officer for local government for 12 years. During that time I basically had government run health care and it was fantastic. I now work in the private sector and have medical coverage through one of the large HMO's. The difference between the two is staggering. If I had my CHOICE between the two I would choose the government plan. Choice is a good thing.

Excuse my ignorance, I'm paraphrasing but you said the medical issues you have are your own fault and the government shouldn't bail you out. Rob, this is not welfare we are talking about, the government is not bailing anyone out. The proposed plan is only an option that you and I will have to pay for just like any other plan if we choose it. Those that can't afford private insurance will have the coverage they need for little or no cost.

 

[rjwolfe3]

'm paraphrasing but you said the medical issues you have are your own fault and the government shouldn't bail you out. Rob, this is not welfare we are talking about, the government is not bailing anyone out. The proposed plan is only an option that you and I will have to pay for just like any other plan if we choose it. Those that can't afford private insurance will have the coverage they need for little or no cost.

Actually was referring to the financial things being my fault. Although I am sure that if I ate better and exercised my health problems would not be as intense. However most of my health problems just happened.

But how is this not welfare? Free insurance is the same thing as free money. If you don't work for it then it is welfare. A government handout is just that - a handout. If you pay for it, then it is just another insurance plan.

Do you really think that once the government gets this passed that they will not then seek to control all of the health insurance business. They already have controlling interests in so many businesses as it is.

I currently work for the state government and I was in the military for 6 years. Neither of which had/have "government insurance". I paid for insurance for both and I had a choice over which company I went with. In both instances I asked around and read all of the info and then went with the best choice available in my eyes. It was better then nothing but I often wonder if I taken all of that money and invested it then where would I be now.

I have been trying to read over this Health Care bill that Lou linked and am finding it difficult to wade through all of the government speak. But it looks like in the future if this passes, you have to have insurance no matter what, whether it be through your employer or the government.

 

[snowman56]

Here is another site: Page 425 of Health Care Bill - Listen to this interview Fred Thompson's Radio Show interviewing Betsy McCaughey (pronounced Mc Coy). Or look it up on www.fredthompsonshow.com, under interviews. They say they will let you keep your own healthcare ins. but that is not true. It will all be government issue.

 

[Russianwolf]

Here is another site: Page 425 of Health Care Bill - Listen to this interview Fred Thompson's Radio Show interviewing Betsy McCaughey (pronounced Mc Coy). Or look it up on www.fredthompsonshow.com, under interviews. They say they will let you keep your own healthcare ins. but that is not true. It will all be government issue.

Bob, show us the section number that says that you can't keep your own insurance. Page numbers don't work.

 

[Paul in OKC]

A government mandated anything is not a good thing. You can not have government invovled and still have a competitive market in anything, let alone health care. Granted, I would not want to be without it, but where does it say it is a right that I should have it at others expense? Things here are not perfect, but the government is deffinately not the fix. Just more debt. Should it happen, what do you do when the hospital runs out of its allotted funds for the month? Wait? At least that is the way some say it will happen.
No thanks. How many of the uninsured are that way by choice. Maybe healthy and wealthy and wise =8^). What I hear is that out of the 52 million uninsured, this will only cover less than 20 million of those, so......

 

[igran7]

please be careful when reading or watching an interview on TV unless both sides are represented. I am not generally the paranoid type but I do know that it is not in the best interest for the top wealthy 2% to have this bill passed. Every nationally syndicated news personality makes over $250,000 year, insurance execs make 50 times that much, heck even most senators and congressmen make that much. So please take the comments with a grain of salt and inform yourself by reading from realiable sources.

If I were the only person in the world that sold pens I could charge any amount for the pen...and I would get whatever amount I deemed the pen was worth. If a hundred others sold pens I would obviously have to compete with what others were charging to stay in business. If 10,000 others sold pens then not only would I have to compete, but I would have to come up with something unique to draw in customers. Same thing holds true for every commodity, why is the issue of health care any different? If the government can do it for less then the private companies will have to compete or go out of business, and if the government can do it for less, then why can't the private companies? I for one am tired of being gouged by the high prices while the insurance companies continue to make astonomical amounts of money.

 

[wudnhed]

So do I assume then that the government run health care in Canada doesn't work? What regulations are there on the drugs and medical care available in Mexico? I am asking this because I really want to know.

I can't tell you what the regulations are but do know when you pass back thru customs they check all your bags pretty thoroughly. No you can't bring back stuff like Valium and such unless you have a valid prescription but others you can get is Prednizone, Volteran, Pennicilian, Zithromiacine just to name a few. I get 120 antibiotics for about $5. I get Volteran in pill and cream form, (for my arthritis), for about $5. When we sit waiting in the dental office, snowbirds always strike up conversations. Most of the Canadians dislike their healthcare system but then, most of us USAns dislike our healthcare system too..

 

[jkeithrussell]

If the government can do it for less then the private companies will have to compete or go out of business, and if the government can do it for less, then why can't the private companies?

Because the government doesn't have to make money to stay in business, but insurance companies do. The government takes money from taxpayers and/or prints money -- it doesn't have any incentive to make a profit. That, in a nutshell, is why it can be viewed as folly to say that the insurance companies will simply be in competition with the government. No business can compete with the government. How would you like to be in competition with the government selling pens when it can take your money to buy its kits and blanks, sell the pens for a loss (it's only fair that everyone should have a really nice pen), and tax you to make up the difference?

 

[Douglas Feehan]

Just wondering what everyone thinks a fair cost for health coverage should be. yearly?

 

[snowman56]

Look under "Audios" and then interviews for Betsy McCaughey interview to hear what she has to say about the bill. This is in the site: www.fredthompsonshow.com

 

[igran7]

Because the government doesn't have to make money to stay in business, but insurance companies do. The government takes money from taxpayers and/or prints money -- it doesn't have any incentive to make a profit. That, in a nutshell, is why it can be viewed as folly to say that the insurance companies will simply be in competition with the government. No business can compete with the government. How would you like to be in competition with the government selling pens when it can take your money to buy its kits and blanks, sell the pens for a loss (it's only fair that everyone should have a really nice pen), and tax you to make up the difference?

Good point! But when is enough enough? Obviously there is a huge problem or this would be a non-issue.
I think everyone should be intitled to make a profit and prosper, but when that profit is so huge most of us can't even imagine it...where do you draw the line?

 

[bitshird]

I've been watching this thread since this morning, I tend to agree with Paul, our Government mandating most any thing is a bad idea. I shouldn't Bit*h about insurance though, I'm on Medicare and have supplemental insurance. It cost's me 126.00 a month, my prescriptions cost me a total of 38.00 a month, with out it the costs would be close to 1800.00 per month, I worked for 45 years or there about and figure I've paid enough into Social Security Disability and Medicare that I really don't mind getting that care, nor does it make me feel like I'm freeloading or getting something for nothing.
If you need something to raise up against try the Pharmaceutical Industry, when you've finished giving them their justly deserved tongue lashing, then start on the Lawyers have you watched much TV lately, every 3rd commercial is for suing some drug company or doctor. When I cut my fingers off last year my wife drove me to the hospital, what a treat to sit in an Emergency Room waiting area with a Methhead that had rode a stolen 4 wheeler over a drainage ditch and cut his forehead on the handlebars, Oh and the Idiot that was there to get a splinter out of his hand he got loading lumber and not wearing gloves.
I sat and watched these two get waited on for an hour before I got in was I mad, Oh He## yes!! even the Methhead (yes I know for a fact he is, he lives about a mile away and has 3 cases pending) told the nurse to get me in cause I was leaking quite a bit.
THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS BROKEN !! but I don't think our Government is capable of fixing it, I love my Dr. she is a great person, She had to come to the hospital and tell the ER Dr. to quit screwing around and get me to a real hospital, She isn't even on staff there. Granted the two area hospitals are not much more than bandage stations, but this fool kept me in his ER for 8 freaking Hours Bleeding A LOT (but he did keep me well stoked on Morphine) and other than that didn't do much other than hook me to a monitor and ask how I was doing, For this great service this hospital charged my insurance a bit over 7,000.00 The hospital in Jackson that actually did something like get me a real DR. who operated and did the best he could with what was left their bill was only 11,000.00 an change.
so my question for the lets fix it crowd is what about this crap, If we do get some type of rationing lets see I have Diabetes, Heart Trouble, Asthma, and a few other minor annoyances, So this I'm assuming would put me WAAAAAAAy back at the end of the line, so I guess if all this rationing stuff were true, I would have been dead from that stupid Rocky Mountain Spotted Tick Fever a while back, That would really bum me out or not.
This End of life counseling does any one remember the movie Soylent Green??

 

[jeff]

Curtis will probably be ticked off that I didn't squash this thread. (Shhhh! don't tell him...) However this is an important topic and the discussion is reasonably civil, so carry on. Don't be nasty or inject blatant partisan politics.

 

[jkeithrussell]

Good point! But when is enough enough? Obviously there is a huge problem or this would be a non-issue.
I think everyone should be intitled to make a profit and prosper, but when that profit is so huge most of us can't even imagine it...where do you draw the line?

Well, I don't think the problem is how much the insurance companies make. To me, that's just a flash-button issue that the politicians exploit to stir up populism. The elderly are already covered by medicare. A lot of the uninsured (no, I don't know how many) choose to be uninsured. Younger people, single adults w/o children to support, perhaps some people who self-insure, etc. So we're talking about the government solving a problem of perhaps 10% (at most) of the total population being uninsured by taking over the entire industry. To me, that just seems a little disproportionate. I know there are people who are suffering hardships as a result of not being able to get quality health insurance, but surely we can fix that for a lot cheaper than the currently estimated 1.75 Trillion (in debt spending) in only 10 years, plus having the government running 1/6th of the economy. It's not an easy issue, and I don't pretend to have the answers, but I am very suspicious of this administration's rush to get this enormous program shoved through before it has been fully analyzed and considered by the public. Even the congressional budget office has said (twice) that the program is going to cost more and produce fewer savings than the current estimates (already 1.75T). The government is already closing in on 10Trillion in debt. I wonder where we draw the line on that.

 

[jkeithrussell]

If you need something to raise up against try the Pharmaceutical Industry, when you've finished giving them their justly deserved tongue lashing, then start on the Lawyers have you watched much TV lately, every 3rd commercial is for suing some drug company or doctor.

Ok, last one for me.

First, almost every state plus the federal courts already have caps on punitive damages for medical malpractice cases. It is a myth that we still have "jackpot justice," as the president said last week. If you doubt me, go try to find a lawyer to handle a medical malpractice case for you next time your surgeon leaves a sponge in your abdomen. I have friends in the business and they can only afford to take the most egregious cases.

Second, pharmaceutical companies are big, strong, wealthy, and powerful. They sometimes do very nasty things, and they sometimes produce wonderful products that improve people's lives. If your loved one was the recipient of one of their nasty deeds, I can promise you that you would need help getting any recourse out of the pharmaceutical companies--even if you were only seeking a modest amount. I guess you could hire your lawn crew to do it, but a good lawyer would be a better bet. The kind of lawyers who can go up against the pharmaceutical companies and win do not work for free, nor should they. A hard case against one of these companies can take years to produce any money and the 1/3 fee that everyone cries about is not unreasonable when you consider that the lawyer has been fronting all of the costs, taking all of the risks, and making nothing for possibly years on the case.

I can handle almost all of the differences of opinion about nearly every issue. But I do not like to see people falling for the "rich insurance execs" or "greedy trial lawyers" BS. Folks, that is just political populism. The politicians whip people up by making the average working stiffs think that some fat cat is out there living it up on your dime. You can look hard enough to find examples of it, but it is not the norm. That is why it bothered me to see our president perpetuate at least 2 of these harmful myths: first, that we have "jackpot justice," and second that doctors would give a child surgery because they make more money that way. Shameful, in my opinion. Pass your legislation on its merits, not with scare tactics and class warfare.

 

[hewunch]

please be careful when reading or watching an interview on TV unless both sides are represented. I am not generally the paranoid type but I do know that it is not in the best interest for the top wealthy 2% to have this bill passed. Every nationally syndicated news personality makes over $250,000 year, insurance execs make 50 times that much, heck even most senators and congressmen make that much. So please take the comments with a grain of salt and inform yourself by reading from realiable sources.

If I were the only person in the world that sold pens I could charge any amount for the pen...and I would get whatever amount I deemed the pen was worth. If a hundred others sold pens I would obviously have to compete with what others were charging to stay in business. If 10,000 others sold pens then not only would I have to compete, but I would have to come up with something unique to draw in customers. Same thing holds true for every commodity, why is the issue of health care any different? If the government can do it for less then the private companies will have to compete or go out of business, and if the government can do it for less, then why can't the private companies? I for one am tired of being gouged by the high prices while the insurance companies continue to make astonomical amounts of money.

The bigger question is what is the purpose of government? And I think that would change with our founding fathers to our current slate of politicians. See here is the deal with government spending. Basically when you purchase something you are concerned mostly with 2 things. Product and Price. And those things are affected by a host of other factors. For example, it would not matter if beer was on sale for $.25 a can, I would not buy it because I can't stand the stuff. But if Diet Caffeine-free Pepsi was $2 for a 2 liter and I was out and wanted some, I would buy it.
There are basically three types of transactions.
1. A personal transaction. IN this transaction you are concerned with both product and price. Hence my illustration about the Diet Pepsi. I would think most of us want to purchase pen kits of a certain quality or brand for the lowest price possible because that maximizes our profits.
2. Next you have a second hand or second party transaction. This is a transaction where you care about price, but not product. Say your office workers put in $5 a week into a hat, then at the end of the month you have $100, and your boss says, go get something with the $100 to give away to the person who we draw a name out of a hat. So you go to the mall and get a $100 stuffed Frog. In this transaction, you were not concerned about product only price.
3. Lastly you have a third party transaction. This is a transaction that is not for you or anyone you know (unlike the first 2). You are buying it and you don't really care how much it costs or what the quality is. By and large this is what the government does. Hence we have the government spending 2x what it should have on ham in California. And the $300 toilet seats etc. The government is fraught with waste. And if they take over more of health care (I say more because it already has a bunch with the soon to be bankrupt Medicare and Medicaid) it will have more waste not less.

So back to the original question, what is the role of government? Most of us could come up with a common set of roles (laws, police, military, etc.) but lawyers in the medical system are what got us to this place in the first place. And guess what our government is made up mostly of? Lawyers. WHO by the way, made the law that said that groups could only be formed within companies and people could not purchase insurance across state lines. Had that law not been written, we would have a COMPLETELY different type of health insurance system.

Oh and for those of us here over 50. Do you remember when Social Security was a fund that was off limits to the congress? DO you really think that these same people who couldn't keep their hands off Social Security will spend the money set aside for health wisely and on health? I am sorry, but I fear too many are giving those inside the beltway too much credit. Some might would, but as a group, well, not so much.

 

[Texatdurango]

I just read a few more posts including Jeffs where he is leaving this open, THANKS Jeff, I hope everyone can keep it civil and focus on the issue and not try to convince others to their way of thinking.

I have a few thoughts but I am being summoned to dinner, actually have already gotten the "last call" threat to start the grill so will be back later.

Please be decent so this will still be open when I get back.

 

[workinforwood]

I did not read all this thread. I just saw it now. I am originally Canadian. I know all about social medicine and how it works. I've read quite a bit about the USA plan, which would become my new plan from what it sounds like to me. It is the scariest most draconian plan I ever heard. It's way worse than Canada. I'm scared to death of it!!! The system is not broke. Leave it alone. The un-insured..most of them are that way by choice.

 

[workinforwood]

No sympathy needed Rob.
Obviously if the government plan comes to fruition then it will not be the plan for you. Your current plan may actually cost less, because generally speaking, competition breeds better prices for the consumer.

Nobody is suggesting that a government health plan is something everyone must partake in or else...It is merely an alternative to the existing health plans offered. If the government plan saves the consumer X amount of dollars then the big insurance companies will have to compete within the same general amount or go out of business. I suspect they will choose to compete which will be better for all of us.

.

Oh, actually, I'm sorry Ian but that is completely false information. Pretty sure page 331 in the bill is what you need to read. If your company wishes to maintain it's current health plan, that is acceptable. All companies that wish to maintain their current health plan WILL BE AUDITED. Says so right there. Any new employee can not be added to the existing health plan. If you leave your company and join a new company that has private insurance, you can not join their private plan. You must join the government plan. Therefore, eventually, all citizens must be on the government plan. This is because over time, with job switches, there will not be enough private plans in existance for the insurance companies to stay afloat. There will come a breaking point where they will fold. I know the President said that if you have a plan, you can keep the plan. Maybe he meant it or maybe he means you can keep it for now as to help the transition to 100% social medicine take place. If he meant it, he hasn't read the bill, which is 1000's of pages of very strange things. The most disturbing being the mandatory death counciling of senior citizens. Every 5 yrs the government will come to your house and tell you how you should kill yourself for the good of the country...how patriotic. I think that part is around page 1002.
I wish I was making this up.

 

[jimbob91577]

The bigger question is what is the purpose of government?

According to the constitution, our Federal Government has only two responsibilities: Infrastructure and National Defence. All other responsibilities fall to the states and/or to the people. The problem is we've relinquished our rights here and there and have allowed our federal government to grow and create new responsibilities that it should never have been allowed to have. We've allowed the federal government to create laws that erode key facets of the constitution and allowed our state governments to do much of the same. Compile that with the general lack of dealing with government coming from the general populous and you have the perfect storm for what has taken place and what will continue to take place in the future.

Socialized Medicine is just another symptom of the problem, and that is we've allowed our government to grow unchecked almost to the point that it is too late to do something about. It is no different than the English monarchy we rebelled against 230+ years ago in that the aristocrisy controlled the actions and behaviors of the common people, our aristocrisy, government, is beginning to control what we eat, drive, learn - and is ultimately taking away the choices, health care, smoking - that we as citizens can make for ourselves.

 

[seawolf]

Several years ago the government stepped into the medical arena and ordered that all items and services be amortized. As a result an aspirin costs 5.00 a band aid 35.00 and so on. The reasoning behind it was that not all patients could pay and Medicare and Medicaid would pay at a reduced rate.
As for end of life counseling I think Dr. Jack Kevorkian may be placed in charge of that department.
The government can currently decide if you live or die. Remember the lady in Florida not long ago who was denied food and water to the point of death.
If they pass this health care bill ( and they will ) I feel there needs to be another rider in it to the effect that if you show up at the ER for treatment of a non emergency then the full bill will be collected out of your own pocket. That way it will help to stop the fellow who got a splinter in his hand and the people who come in for a sniffle. ( self rationing? )
I may be a little cold hearted but I have always felt if a person wants to suicide it is their choice.
I am 55 years old and I may not live to draw social security or receive medical aid from any source other than the insurance I buy. If it gets rationed the oldies and the infirm will be the first to go. Other services will be cut back for premies, downes children, ect.
I don't have the answers but when it is my time I think I have lived right and will go to a better place.
Mark

 

[mdburn_em]

Many things of interest in this thread, not least of which is the civility.

I've got a friend that spends quite a bit of time in Thailand. He simply loves it there. Very low cost of living. He was telling me about the medical care there. First rate according to him. The doctors are trained in the U.S. and then go back there to practice. One thing, there is absolutely no lawsuits permitted for malpractice. No insurance either. You pay for what you get. I wish I could remember some of the figures he told me. Less than $1000 for major surgery. (If the swiss cheese I use for a brain is able to recall correctly.)

He said he would love to live there permanently, but the wife thought it was too far to see the grand kids.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

No mI have not read all 1000 pages and in truth only have read what Snowman posted, but here's a thought and if my reasoning is wrong I'll take the flack for it. It seems to me this guy that TWITTERED this has taken some privliage with the writen word.
Below in red telss me that 90% of what he said was taken out of contex

I don't know if any of you have been keeping up with the proposed health care bill, but this is what is supposedly on it right now. It seems pretty extreme and scary to me. What do you think?
This person has been reading the 1000 page house bill and posting it at
Twitter. You decide. http://healthcarehorserace.com/activism/07282009/rep-conyers-sees-no-need-to-read-health-care-bill/

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS
that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what
treatments and benefits you get -14 words out of a total page and section

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!4 words picked from 13 lines-lines 4-16

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC
benefits for you. You have no choice!My understanding is you do have a choice and these words are not in the proposal

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens,
illegal or otherwise If so I do dissagtee but lets read the whole section it might expand on that

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access to individuals' finances
and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!I think the IRS already has this and is part of the government correct me if I'm wrong

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your banks'
accounts for election funds transfer. anytime you fill out your Taxes and contribute THEY HAVE THIS SO WHAT'S NEW!

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in
unions & community orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating a HC Exchange to bring private HC plans
under Govt control.AGAIN ONLY 13 WORDS BUT HE QUOATS 7 LINES

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs for private HC plans
in the Exchange

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will
ration your Healthcare!THAT'S ASSUMMING A LOT ANGAIN OUT OF CONTEXT

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic-appropriate services.
Example: Translation for illegal aliens. MY GRANMOTHER SPOKE ITALIAN AND BROKEN ENGLISH AND AT TIMES NEEDED US TO HELP HER WITH FORMS SHE CAME OVER WHEN SHE WAS 2 THROUGH ELLIS ISLAND AND MOST CERTANLLY WAS AN AMERICAN WHO HAD SONS DIE FOR THIS COUNTRY SO YOUR TRANSLATION HAS HOLES IN IT
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups (i.e., ACORN & Americorps)
to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan. AGAIN HE USES 6 WORDS TO SUM UP 10 LINES, IS THIS IN CONTEXT

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels for Plans. #AARP members - your
health care will be rationed. TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT.

PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid-eligible individuals will be
automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice. THOSE WORDS WERE NEVER USED AND AGAIN AFTER ENROLLING YOU CAN OPT-OUT IF YOU MEET CERTAIN REQUIREMENTS.


PLEASE READ DOWN THE REST OF THESE AND SEE IF YOU SEE WHAT I SEE. YES THEIR ARE THINGS AS IT STANDS IN THE BILL THAT NEED CHANGING AND THE CONGRESS IS STILL IN THE PROCESS SO LETS ALL JUST SEE WHAT THEY MAY OR MAY NOT COME UP WITH ....

Guys sorry about the caps I must of hit the cap lock as I was typing.....

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No
"judicial review" against Govt Monopoly.

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what you
can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST automatically enroll employees into pub
opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for health care for part-time
employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY employer with a payroll of $400k and above who does
not provide pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Businesses with payroll between $251k & 400k who don't
provide pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according
to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual
taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195 HC Bill - Officers and employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have
access to ALL Americans' financial and personal records.

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be
treated as tax" Yes, it says that.

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician services for
Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors will all be paid the same, regardless of
what specialty you have.

PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of doctor's time, professional judgment,
etc. Literally value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131 Govt mandates and controls productivity for private HC
industries

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental and purchase of power driven
wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145. Treatment of certain cancer hospitals. Cancer patients:
welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what it deems
preventable readmissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors who treat a patient during initial admission
that results in a readmission will be penalized by the Govt.

Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells doctors
what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating
hospitals cannot expand

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT
community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!

Pg335 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates establishment of outcome-based
measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv Plans,
HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps into Govt plan

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people.!
WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory
Committee. Can you say HC by phone?

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think
Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct and consult regarding living wills,
durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of end of
life resources, guiding you in death. Excuse me???!?!?!?

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The
Govt has a say in how your life ends

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advance care planning consult" will be used
frequently as patient's health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "Advance care consultation" may include an ORDER for
end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end
of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will
have at end of life

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello,
ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. One monthly payment
to a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means
they will insert Govt into your marriage

Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining,
creating, rationing those same services.

WELCOME TO THE NEW AMERICA!!!!!

 

[bitshird]

Several years ago the government stepped into the medical arena and ordered that all items and services be amortized. As a result an aspirin costs 5.00 a band aid 35.00 and so on. The reasoning behind it was that not all patients could pay and Medicare and Medicaid would pay at a reduced rate.
As for end of life counseling I think Dr. Jack Kevorkian may be placed in charge of that department.
The government can currently decide if you live or die. Remember the lady in Florida not long ago who was denied food and water to the point of death.
If they pass this health care bill ( and they will ) I feel there needs to be another rider in it to the effect that if you show up at the ER for treatment of a non emergency then the full bill will be collected out of your own pocket. That way it will help to stop the fellow who got a splinter in his hand and the people who come in for a sniffle. ( self rationing? )
I may be a little cold hearted but I have always felt if a person wants to suicide it is their choice.
I am 55 years old and I may not live to draw social security or receive medical aid from any source other than the insurance I buy. If it gets rationed the oldies and the infirm will be the first to go. Other services will be cut back for premies, downes children, ect.
I don't have the answers but when it is my time I think I have lived right and will go to a better place.
Mark

Mark,
The thing about the lady in Florida Mrs. Terry Schaivo, was actually a right to die thing that her husband wanted her to be allowed to die and her parents wanted her to be kept alive, she had been brain dead (supposedly for several years 7 I think it was) My wife and I both have living wills with declarations stating under what conditions and for how long of a time we can be kept on life support, we did this right after I had heart surgery, just to avoid something like this.
But that is just about what the Government is proposing, I honestly don't see how any physician can allow that, I thought there was something in the Hippocratic Oath that forbid them to allow a person to suffer, by the same token they shall do no harm, so how do they justify lethal injections.
The Government needs to stay out of health care, when it comes down to my health, I really don't want some accountant looking at numbers to have the final vote on whether I get help or not.
I do know that there are way too many frauds going on with Medicare and worse in Medicaid, this is where most of the lowlife pill dealers get their prescription meds from to sell, we have a huge problem with that here in our part of Tennessee.
I think rather than force this down our throats, quite a bit of the Medicare costs could be off set by cutting down on the fraud.
I'm really not ready to get put in a box yet, but I'm afraid that if the health plan does and as you said will go through, I'll be near the top of the deny service list, just due to the expense of never ending blood work and twice yearly Cardiologist checkup usually one stint a year, year before last it was two.

 

[GaryMGg]

Good point! But when is enough enough? Obviously there is a huge problem or this would be a non-issue.
I think everyone should be intitled to make a profit and prosper, but when that profit is so huge most of us can't even imagine it...where do you draw the line?

Who is John Galt?

So long as you make your profit legally, ethically, and honestly -- e.g.: by doing what you say you'll do; by telling your employees, investors and partners a priori what you expect from them and what they can expect in return -- there should be no limit to what someone can earn.
So long as a producer meets those criteria, who has the right to tell them they're making too much?

Regards,
G

 

[bitshird]

Who is John Galt?


So long as a producer meets those criteria, who has the right to tell them they're making too much?

Regards,
G

Gary, perhaps a Constitutionally limited Government I didn't think we had one of those but I guess we are about to find out.

"The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces must be submitted to." --Thomas Jefferson

 

[NewLondon88]

The Government needs to stay out of health care, when it comes down to my health, I really don't want some accountant looking at numbers to have the final vote on whether I get help or not.

I think they call that an HMO.

I think rather than force this down our throats, quite a bit of the Medicare costs could be off set by cutting down on the fraud.

I think the problem with our health care system is the SYSTEM.

Insurance is supposed to be a pool of everyone's money to help defray
the cost of care for those who need it. Simple math tells you that most
people will pay in more than they take out.. otherwise the system would
collapse.

But health insurance SHOULD NEVER be a profit center. Everyone should
pay premiums into the pool, and those monies should be used to provide
reasonable care. Monies left over this year should be used to reduce the
premiums for next year. (monies set aside for unexpected circumstances
is reasonable, but it shouldn't be a profit)

Now .. getting into things like 'define reasonable' is where the lobbyists
come in. The drug companies alone sent over 50 lobbying firms to
Washington this week. Not 50 lobbyists .. 50 firms! That's just the drug
companies. That's just this week.

They're not there out of the goodness of their hearts.. and they're not
there for the benefit of you and I.

They're there because there is big money to be made with this new bill.
They're there because they want to make sure that the health care
system stays as profitable, confusing and screwed up as it is now.

ok, I'll shut up.