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Thanks, Ed, I ran out of fingers and toes to count the views of the thread! [:eek:)]

George, I have to say I disagree with your interpretation of the division on the site. Having said that, what is important is that you see the division. Whether that is important to me, or any of the other "old timers" doesn't matter. However, we can't really make you feel at home. Frankly, you seem to be doing well at making yourself a part of the forum. Posting your work and writing a tutorial are good ways of doing that.

The post count someone mentioned has been tossed around from time to time. Lots of us consider it interesting to see who joins the HAC (Hot Air Club) Hey, I joined way before Dario, and English is his second language. Check out his post count! [;)] Some have had the post count removed from their profile, others, like me, don't consider it important enough to worry about.

As far as fights, hey, we have had a bunch, and will have more. So what? I have made friends from those I had fights with, and have a great time teasing back and forth with other members. Families fight, spouses fight, so why should be be surprised when we fight?

I still love this site, and visit it very regularly, even on my gov't computer at work. (Shhhh!)

Now, let's sit back and wait for Scott's tutorial, which I personally believe he should sign his name to and claim full credit for.
 
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Originally posted by Texatdurango

To me, there is a clear division on this forum... the newbies and the elders.
Click to expand...

Well if this is , i was in the first category for a while and felt in the second the day i wrote my first answer to a newbie. That day, i really felt like be a real part of this forum, shearing someting with someone else that did'nt know, even if i knew that for probably 95% of the other member this was a very basic question. I WAS SHEARING SOMETHING.
Many comments where about the fact that many new user don't use the search engine.
1 - I found out about it when someone told me (and i was not upset but proud to see we add one
2 - The more i learned about pen turning, the easier it was for me to sturcture my search because i add a better idea of the terms and words to use.

Sometimes, the key words for a good search have noting in common with the question and the knowledge of a person will help her/him to make a good search, this is why IMHO newbies like i was have trouble finding the good answer. So while the volunter get something organized, i suggest that when we answer a question that could have been find with a good search, we end our answer with:

"If you use the search button at the top of the page with these words "bla bla bla" you will find more details."

This will point a newbie to the search engine, give him/her a new tool and shoul'nt hurt anyones feelings.

Now all you funny guys, don't tell me that the "bla bla bla" search don't work, try it you will find at least one topics[}:)]


Just my .02 cents (Canadian cents are a little less but getting closer[:D])

Alfred

P.S. Jeff, if you ever need a translator (french[:D]) i'm in
 
Originally posted by arioux

"If you use the search button at the top of the page with these words "bla bla bla" you will find more details."

Hey, the search for bla bla bla came up with 2378 topics! This search engine really works!

Les in Alberta
200771325954_Alberta.gif
<br />
"What's YOUR Carbon Footprint?"
Click to expand...
 
Not to put too fine of a point on it... but it's interesting that none of the "elders" see a division but most of the "short timers" do! I almost hate to use the term "Clic" and don't even know if I spelled it correctly, but would that give a better idea to what a new comer might see in the forum?

Based on some emails I have received, I know I'm not the only newbie who sees this, perhaps I'm one of the few who aren't too bashful to discuss it.

Ron don't take everything so personal! I was not directing my comments towards you, and there isn't a thing in the world that I think you or anyone else owes me. You misread my post by a country mile! But you do confirm one of my points that some may need to see their names up in lights so perhaps attaching the authors names to articles might be wise after all.

As far as dating articles, I was referring to not glumping them into years.

George...up in the mountains with no wifi for a while... bye for now!
 
I've been here less than 2 years and I'm an "elder?" Because some of us correspond or actually talk on the telephone to one another outside this forum, that makes it a clique? Being in Montana I guess I could claim the same thing about the people who get together at one of the Bubbasville meetings or any one of the other gatherings of penturners which always take place in areas where there are quite a few penturners. When I first joined it was obvious to me that some people knew each other outside this forum. I was jealous that they had friends that shared a common interest in making pens, but I didn't get upset about it and I never thought there was some exclusive group that had an impenetrable wall around it. I've made friends through this forum although I have actually only met two in person, Anthony and Scott. I've become friends with these people for various reasons. With Anthony it was because I bought nibs from and peppered him with questions about fountain pens. In Scott's case it was because he was looking for photos of pencils for an article he was writing and I sent him a couple. With Lou Metcalf it was because I offered what I thought might be helpful suggestions about photography when I found out he's partially color blind. With Eagle it was because he called me about a pen I posted a long time ago. And with every other person it was because one of us started a dialog through the message system on this site about something. I would suggest that rather than seeing things that I and some others don't see that you take the initiative and contact someone through the site. If you have a question about how someone did something, send them a message through the site rather than posting the question. I don't guarantee that it will work but it did for me and I know it has for others as well.
 
Okay, I know that wasn't nice but I'm just trying to improve the number of posts in this thread. That's important, too, ya know.[:D]
 
That's afterall what tells us how important and meaningful this discussion is and how much affect it will have on our forum's environment - vis a vis the unintended, I'm almost sure, division between newbies and oldies and other cliques of wannabees in the forum.

I've learned much reading this masterpiece of ...... Let's say, I'm sure we've all learned a lot of things. I'm not sure how much we learned about methods of sharing that learning. I mean other than pontificating from on high, deigning to share a few crumbs with the masses, how has all this gabble done anything to help. I've seen any number of instances in this thread where certain people have been put down for voicing their asked for opinions and others again join in diminishing their input by acclamation more than reason.

I see no reason to hope our manners or behaviors will improve or change!
[:D]FWIW.........[:0]
 
George,

There is one subject that has not been named but it is quite evident within some of the posts here - "<b>Attitude</b>".

A person's attitude during the writing of a post - conditions the questions; The way something is written subconsciously or consciously invites positive or negative response from others.

When someone is frustrated or not able to accomplish a method that they have read about, (even though others daily accomplish that very thing) - then for some, something in their attitude drives them to write statements like "This method or wood or finish is not all its cracked up to be because I tried it" - when in fact many many have been successful. Something in the "Attitude" drives the questions . And those questions drive the response from those that know it does work!

<b>This is not a Newbie / Elder problem.</b> It is an attitude problem!

A recent problem where a person put his CA pen in his pants pocket and proclaimed that CA is not all its cracked up to be - is a prime example. The responses and dialogs were not a Elder/newbie problem at its root, but an Attitude and personal value problem that ended up blaming "elders versus newbies".

I read several people's CA articles and Russ's too. <b> I am DUMB! It took me 1 and 1/2 years to become consistent with CA application,</b> overcoming white spots, splotches, smoothness, clarity and getting a beautiful shine. I KNEW it could be done, but I couldn't do it. I It wasn't the fault of CA, sandpaper, lathe or bushing out of round, but my own inexperience. I owned up to the fact that it wasn't CA's fault or someone else's fault but my own. (And I have been working with wood since I was a kid in the '50s.) I fought the CA problems and wrestled with them. I listened to people here. In the end, it came down to enough of my own personal experience plus following other people's guidelines until I could "get the feel and experience" and recognize the potential problems before they started. I KNEW that I wanted a CA finish and stayed with it.

I never, in 1 1/2 years, felt that that others were wrong or that they didn't have high enough standards as I was expecting. <b>In my inexperience, I never even gave the first thought that there was a newbie/elder distinction here. </b>

I have noted distinct differences in the way people help on this forum. One guy came here and said that he had been looking and looking and would love to do pen making but could not afford it. I think there were enough personal donations that got him started. As a self proclaimed long term newbie, no one treated me in a condescending manner. (If they did, I am just dumb enough that I didn't notice. [;)] ) I have been raked over the coals on a couple of occasions, but it wasn't a newbie / elder problem, but rather viewpoint, and I know the difference well enough to accept it as that.
 
Well said Hank.

I too don't see a division but will say that friendship (or at least reputation) does influence some people's posts. I know since I too am like that at times. I received a few emails about my post (not believing about the division). Familiarity with the "elder's" attitude may also affect posts.

Then again this happens all the time in the real world too. I would treat my friend (or family) a bit more special than a stranger and I won't deny that. I guess that is the same in forums as well.

Like the real world, I can know a person for years and not become his friend or can meet a person and be friends with him/her in minutes.

BTW, I hope "elder" as coined here doesn't mean post count...I am feeling older than my years already and don't want to add more to it [:D][}:)].
 
I wish to make things clear.

I do not see a click on this forum. I never have. Personally, I think that people who say there is a click, or an inpenetrable wall here, are choosing to make that wall. It is attitude as has been mentioned. The people who are accused as being in a high and mighty group are the ones who are most helpful, are the ones who have challenged me consistently. They speak the truth, when the truth might not be pleasant.

Some people get offended when the crap they speak/show is called for what it is.

I see people whose experience and pens make me listen more closely when they speak. Cav--you are in the "EF(IAP) Hutton" group too. Gerry, you are too. I sincerely apologize if I offended you by including your name. Your pens always have that WOW factor and I someday hope my pens will have the quality yours consistently display.
 
I'm with Mark ... what click?

Does that make me an elder, too? COOL!!! :D

Seriously ... I don't agree with the statement "most of the newer people see it" ... I'm newer people, and by my count in this thread, most of the newer people are NOT seeing this division. I see some people who seem to have chips on their shoulders, though. Now THAT is a division I see. A select few seem to be constantly battling for credibility (or whatever it is they're looking for). It's unfortunate, because credibility isn't fought for, it's earned with respect. It's not easy to respect someone who kicks and screams. Some people pull it off, but it's (imho) a much tougher road.

This place is by FAR the most heated forum I visit. BY FAR. I visit 3 other places regularly and one of them has a pretty wide reputation for being volatile. This place far outshines that one in terms of flare ups. We have lots of people who spout off only later to be corrected, and that's fine. It's part of IAP's charm and the group dynamic. It's not my favorite environment, for sure, but the bigger thing here is that IAP also has such a wealth of helpful information. It's information that is so valuable that it's worth the occasional flare up. I think the spirit of this thread is to try to make sure it stays that way.

Division or not, it's what this place is, and it's how it works. Nobody is forced to like it. Participation is completely voluntary. Selfless act or egotistical posts, it's the way this place is and will be for as long as the majority of it's membership finds it helpful. I guess what I'm saying is that this place works the way it is and new members either like it and find a way to participate all on their own or they don't like it and move on. This is only in reference to the click/division metioned. If we can make things easier for the new folks to find, i'm all in favor of that. I don't want to sound like it shouldn't change, appropriate change can be good.

I think the best advice I ever got was this: Welcome, take what you like and leave the rest.

.... re-reading before hitting send .... not my most elloquent, but i think it'll do :)
 
All this reminds me of the saying <b>"Those of you who think you know </b><b>it all are annoying to those of us who do."[;)][;)] </b>

Les in Alberta
2007713162714_Alberta.gif
<br />
"What's YOUR Carbon Footprint?"
 
well put Jason. i would also have to say this is the most volatile forum i visit as well. i'm a member of 3 or 4 others. but i think the volatility is a function of the number of members here. i love to tell my wife about the flare-ups here. she gets a kick out of it and has a hard time believing that grown men and women get into arguments over penturning on the internet... it's pretty silly when you think about it.

but the rewards of this site far outweigh any negative aspects. whenever the wife sees me on the computer, she asks, "you talking to your 'friends' again?"

elders, newbies, intermediaries, whatever we are, we're all part of a great group...

and Thumbs, I've never seen anyone post 4 times in a row, that's impressive. [;)]
 
The argument about whether there is or is not a division is not going to be resolved. Since it can't be resolved, my question to those who say there is a clique or division or whatever you want to call it, is what it is that you want or expect of those on the other side of this perceived divide?
 
I propose two new cliques, one for those who believe we have cliques, and the other for.....wait, that won't work.....

I guess I am a "Newbie" and I have probably asked a few of the stupid questions, I have also received some very valuable advice in areas where I had/have very little experience. The foundation of knowledge and talent here is incredible and actually begs to be tapped.

Three things hopefully we can ALL remember:
1)when someone says "Wow, you're good" that there are in fact two "o"'s in good
2)respect can only be earned, not demanded
3)those who look for offense will most likely find it everywhere they look.

my $0.02....and thanks for the insightful and entertaining thread![:D]
 
If questions are not asked and answers given,what else is this forum good for? I admit it is tiring to see the same old questions over and over again, but to the one asking it is a new adventure. I have asked few questions on this forum or on any other for that matter. It is certainly not because of my brilliance, someone else asked at the time I too needed the answer. To add to that I was in an industrial accident in 1993 and recieved life changing injuries. I have permanent brain damage (as if it isn't obvious[:D]). I am in pain 24/7 neck and back w/ migrain headaches. I will guarantee you there are days when my attitude is not good. I type like old people pole vault. I have learned so much from the people on this site. I still learn today and have been turning pens nearly 5 yrs. I am proud of my work but haven't posted pictures because I don't know how. I cannot focus and retain info like before I was injured. This too adds to frustration. I visit this site nearly every day, often more than once. I try to help a turner new or seasoned if an assist is asked and I feel I have a good answer. The real good news is I'm on some new and improved medicine. My point is this..If when I first signed on a FAQ would have been greatly appreciated. However I would hope a new turner with a question would not be sent to time out for asking what to them is a new and valid question. I see the experienced folks here as teachers and the inexperienced as students.
 
Tsk, tsk, Travis, and you call yourself a student. Check your word usage. [;)]

Personally, perhaps since I started the thread, I think it is serving a good purpose. If you think it is a waist(sic) of bandwidth, don't click on it. If it serves to clear the air and bring some of us closer together in our mindsets, I don't see it as a waste of bandwidth at all.
 
Howdy! I will put my nickle in the pot in on this. I was not going to post at first because I am out of bandaides. There seems to be 2 topics here: repeat questions and cliques. I am almost the newest member. The first week after I found this site, I read thread after thread because they were fascinating. I learned alot. Someone mentioned the search engine. I found more info. I opened the tutorials. I learned more. I had several issues tonight while I was working on a pen. I found a solution to the main problem and a way to keep it from happening again all in some 2006 post. (Thanks ED!) I used the search engine. It was easy.

Are there cliques...I do not think so. If there are, I don't really care. I felt like there were people that wanted to help and those that did not. Just like every other group. I noticed that as a percentage, a minority of the people that read a post post a reply. They seem to be the same folks time after time. They are also the ones that have provided the most help to us rookies. They are the reason I signed up. I figured that if there was something I needed and could not fine, someone in this group would know. Someday, I will not be the rookie. I will be able to say: "I had the same issue and here is how I fixed it". If I had found a site like this when I first started turning, I might have saved some disasters and the dent in my wife's bmw. Probably not but I can dream.
 
Originally posted by DocStram
<br />...... don't mean to sound snobbish ... but, I like to think of myself a one-man clique. [;)]
Al
"Eschew Obfuscation, Espouse Elucidation"
Click to expand...

. . . one-man clique: If the shoe fits! [8D]

"Eschew Obfuscation, Espouse Elucidation": Now that's clear as mud! [:D]
 
I just don't see a problem. The flare-ups are hilarious[:D]

I read article after article before I ever even joined. I was impressed with the knowledge available to me. I skimmed the entire library and all the videos. Not even looking for an answer to something specific but just to see if there was anything that peaked my interests. I would make a note and then review it later to see if something in that article or video could be applied to my technique or benefit my work in some way. I learned a lot the first couple months. I can't wait till the next tutorial gets posted. Even if it is something I have never done or am just not ready to go there yet I still skim them all. You never know what treasures you will find.

And as far as the cliques go, who cares. I would skim the library and find a tutorial by JOHN DOE (names omitted to prevent starting something new), then another and yet another still. I would start to see a couple of names of folks who post lots, nothing wrong with that. Maybe the folks doing all the posting know the same stuff every one else does but were the few who were courteous enough to put down the gouge and make a tutorial that presented data in a way that was easy for them to understand and hopefully equally beneficial to those who are new to the craft or have limited experience with a certain technique/method. I think those who took the time to create a well-prepared tutorial deserve a little respect, they did it for free, nobody forced them, and they could have been making pens instead.[:D] They are not high and mighty about it either, they actually get involved in day-to-day conversations and questions on the website. The end of their articles always say this is what has worked for me (disclaimer that it may not work or be comfortable for you).

Often I will read articles on things I have already worked on myself and find lots of information I already knew. I remember how I learned the hard way and how the information contained in that resource could have saved me some frustration and take joy in the fact that knowing it WILL save someone else a similar frustration. Sometimes I even think I could have made that, but then realize the reason I didn't and somebody else did was because I was just too lazy.[8D]

I like the way this forum works. The flare-ups keep me awake after reading 10 articles that are mostly technical. It is a lot like the real world, you cannot please everyone.

My problem is I never seem to shut-up[:eek:)]
 
Originally posted by gerryr
<br />The argument about whether there is or is not a division is not going to be resolved. Since it can't be resolved, my question to those who say there is a clique or division or whatever you want to call it, is what it is that you want or expect of those on the other side of this perceived divide?
Click to expand...

Excellent question, Gerry. Unfortunately, I cannot even attempt to answer it since I don't feel that there is a divide. Check out the great post by EeyorIs21. I don't think Robert as a new member worries about a divide, clique or whatever. He is more interesting in obtaining information about pen-turning.

So, let me re-toss out Gerry's question: Just what is expected from those on the other side of the perceived divide?
 
IMHO - felt no clickishness - felt like a newbie because I WAS new and KNEW so little about turning - respect all opinions - and tried, failed but kept trying all or most techniques written or suggested on this site. Great group and the info is limitless. If a newbie asks questions that has been asked before and your tired of it, skip it, no biggie, someone else will take the time to answer. That's why I love this site, someone will step up to the plate. Thanks everyone for being you and sharing your knowledge!
 
Hmmmmm. Clicks no. Groups yes. First group is those that have access to the site throughout the whole day which includes some of the "senior" members as well as some "newer" members. The other group which I am part of is the group that checks into the site when they can and this also includes "senior" members and "junior" members. I don't see a problem.[:D]
As for the "newbie" questions. Again I don't see a problem. Yes the search function exists but as somebody else mentioned (I'm not going to go back and look up who) sometimes it is a great way to get to know the new people and sometimes little new tricks come out in those threads. If you're not interested then no peeking.[;)]
 
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