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wdcav1952

wdcav1952

Activities Manager Emeritus
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Some years ago, before this forum had even started, I joined the Yahoo Penturners Group. At that point, I knew how to make a gouge live up to its name and very little else about turning. I asked a couple of questions, and the moderator of the site, Rich K, told me to go through the files before asking questions. Yes, it hurt my feelings, and I pouted for a day or two. Then, I started researching all of the information available on the site. Rich taught me a very valuable lesson.

Our site here has a library available. New turners as well as those who have a lot of experience, will find a wealth of information there. Take some time, forget instant gratification, and read through the library. Join the Yahoo Group, and read the files. Trust me, you will get answers to questions you haven't even though of yet. Russ' site also offers an amazing amount of free information.

Cut off the TV and curl up with some good files; you won't regret it, and by golly you will learn some things.

FWIW,
 
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I would like to take this thread as an opportunity to go a little further.

I read dozens of posts that say "I don't want to make a mistake (or take the time or one of a dozen reasons). but could someone tell me how to ___? Or what is the best way to ___? Recognizing that there is a value in having a forum full of experienced turners is a valuable resource, I feel that many folks are looking for the instant gratification rather than enjoying the pursuit of a hobby...or eve a source of income.

In general, I avoid responding to these questions unless there is some indication that the turner has tried... has experimented... has considered some alternatives. Those who want all of the answers spoonfed will never get the joy of discovery. You will be forever enslaved to having a guide rather than following your intelligence, your intuition and taking some risks. You will never hear your name associated with a valuable learning, like Ed Davidson's bottle stopper turning method or Don Ward's CA finish.

Pen making should be an adventure with some excellent side trips and some that don't pan out. If you want a foolproof method of stabilizing a punky blank because you don't want to ruin an Emperor, experiment on inexpensive kits... or even on tubes that never beome kits. Do you want to know what finish is best for a specific wood, try several. Some say CA and blackwood don't mix. Tohers use it all the time. How can you know the answer for you if you consistently look for a quick answer.

I don't post this as a criticism as much as a wake up call. If you want the answers to all of your questions without having to do the work, you are unlikely to ever find true satisfaction in the hobby... and yoiu will likely find your wait out of it as quickly as you entered. I've seen it happen hundreds of times on this forum alone.
 
I got the same treatment from Rich, he does have that effect on people [:D]
So glad as well. After reading ALL the info, I felt like I had gained years of knowledge in a week and found out how little I actually knew. [:)] Should be manditory reading.
 
Not to pile on here, however the thoughts above are highly valid points.
And, while I hold to the theories postulated by Cav & DCB, I regret to say even
when I provide mandatory reading to staff, I have to read them a cliff-notes version to
be certain the `shall' statements are not missed. Sad but true.

One of these days, maybe I'll write a `how-to search' tutorial.
It's one thing many folks have trouble making work.

Gary
 
Cav, you did the same thing to me. Thank you [:D]

By the way, I only pouted for like 3 minutes, you little baby.
 
I agree whole-heartedly. And I also think this should be a "sticky."

Adding to the above, a person's attitude, as it comes across in the post, plays a big part in the answer received and there are exceptions even then.
 
Originally posted by Tuba707
<br />Cav, you did the same thing to me. Thank you [:D]

By the way, I only pouted for like 3 minutes, you little baby.
Click to expand...

LOL, thanks Joel. FWIW, Rich was a bit more, shall we say, DIRECT than I tried to be. I hoped that you would take my advice in the spirit that it was intended, and am gratified to see that you did. BTW, I actually am a big baby! [:D]
 
Cav, this is very strange. It so happens that at exactly the same time last night you posted this, Ed and I were talking about this very same subject. (No, don't even try great minds think alike..[:D])

A sticky is a good idea, but if a new member will not do any research or search the archives what makes you think that they will read a sticky????

In lieu of a different site like TPWU, what if ya'll ask to have a new section made just for new penmakers or posters? Those questions can or should be posted there. This should at least help cut down on the clutter in the other forums, yet still maintain the integrity of the IAP as it is now.

(Edited for spelling - before Cav got it)
 
Great topic. Ed, those diapers are very comfy, but they cost $92 each.

Regarding the library... I agree with Lou, that digging for information is far more interesting and productive than having it handed to you. I've learned more by stumbling on something during a search for something else than by asking questions.

However, I am not happy with the way we lay out information. It's not too easy to dig. Many people have pointed this out to me, and my response has always been to ask them to volunteer to organize what we have, write FAQs, etc. As you see, we still are in the same situation.

So, I'll say it here - let's make it a project to organize the information we have and generate new stuff. I'd love to have FAQs as thorough and detailed as Y! does. All we need are some volunteers to make it happen.

On the other hand... maybe we simply need pointers to Y!'s FAQ, Russ' pages, etc. That would be as simple as putting links on the front page.

Thoughts??
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Some of the best lessons I've learned where from the mistakes I've made. Not only on the lathe but in life too. Truthfully, a person can learn more by their mistakes than their successes.

I figure I must be a genius by now with all the mistakes and screw ups I've made. With any luck I may even get smarter[:)][:D][8D]
 
I think you guys are being a little hard. All of the replies so far have been from seasoned pro's (perhaps except Dawn). And we all were newbies once. I love to experiment but sometimes I do ask questions that have been asked thousands of times before. I'm not too lazy to look either. Loads of us are as fresh to computers and forums as we are to penmaking. Perhaps when a question like that comes up then one of us could put a link to the subject and how they found it. You could of course just ignore it, now that you know how it's done[8D]
 
Originally posted by jeff
<br />Regarding the library... I agree with Lou, that digging for information is far more interesting and productive than having it handed to you. I've learned more by stumbling on something during a search for something else than by asking questions.

However, I am not happy with the way we lay out information. It's not too easy to dig. Many people have pointed this out to me, and my response has always been to ask them to volunteer to organize what we have, write FAQs, etc. As you see, we still are in the same situation.

So, I'll say it here - let's make it a project to organize the information we have and generate new stuff. I'd love to have FAQs as thorough and detailed as Y! does. All we need are some volunteers to make it happen.

On the other hand... maybe we simply need pointers to Y!'s FAQ, Russ' pages, etc. That would be as simple as putting links on the front page.

Thoughts??
Click to expand...

Jeff,
I will offer some of my time to help with this, I also think things could be organized differently and hopefully better. But I am not good at the search function at all! [:I] I tried for a long time yesterday to find info on a problem I have with a FP and never found it, but I knew it had been discussed before.
When I joined here I was quilty of "asking before seaching" as I think ALOT of us did. And thanks to folks like JimGo and Dario that were patient enough to help get get started learning where to look. So anyway sign me up Jeff!
 
Originally posted by skiprat
<br />I think you guys are being a little hard. All of the replies so far have been from seasoned pro's (perhaps except Dawn). And we all were newbies once. ...
Click to expand...

Yes we were, Skip. However, when I first arrived here by chance a little over two years ago, I asked my share of questions. More often than not, I was politely told (at least I took it politely) that the information was available via searching the forum. Yes, sometimes I had to figure out how to properly enter the parameters of my search, and include archives, but I would eventually find the desired information and move on. And even with my memory, I never forgot what I located and found this to be invaluable. Occasionally, one of our members would include the desired thread as a link and this was appreciated as well. Moreover, several of our members told me to experiment for myself and see what I could come up with. This I did and when I posted my attempts and failures, one of them would contact me with hints or suggestions. I found this to be even more meaningful b/c I had first hand experience on which to build. Such experiences only make us grow in our selected endeavor.

Not meant as disagreement, just my take on this point. This is also not meant to dissuade our new members from seeking assistance where needed. It is meant to encourage them to search the wealth of information that already exists on this site (and others). I guarantee they will find something unexpected and the time spent will be reflected in their future turnings.
 
Many people do not know about the search function or how to go about using it. It also does not help when you do use the search and get little ditties like this:

<b>Microsoft OLE DB Provider for SQL Server error '80040e31'

Timeout expired

/forum/search_mssql.asp, line 156
</b>
When I see someone ask a question that I recall being covered before I do a search and post the link (when the search works for me [;)]).
 
Originally posted by skiprat
<br />I think you guys are being a little hard. All of the replies so far have been from seasoned pro's (perhaps except Dawn)
Click to expand...
As a relative neophyte I'll take exception to that as well.
I've been at this since Dec. '06 and wrt pen-making, 98% of what I know I owe to y'all.
....Perhaps when a question comes up one of us could put a link to the subject and how they found it...[8D]
Click to expand...
I will commit to working on a Search How-to since I'm pretty geeky [:p].
Jeff, if you can create a means for a support group to post links that you could verify, filter and approve, I'll volunteer to do my part to help others find known info.

I urge EVERYONE to go thru EVERY file in the Library. I've done that and gotten a world of learnin' from it. [8D]

I urge EVERYONE to go to the Forums home page and go thru the Critiques in the Inactive Forums. There's more knowledge buried in it than you can shake a penblank at. [:D][;)] [8D]

Gary
 
Jeff,

I would be glad to assist in an organization project.

As a "newbie", I have successfully searched for information on this site (although I work in the computer field and am familiar with search functions), however, sometimes it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. As an example, when I was searching for the mystical "perfect finish", a search for CA/BLO yielded a tremendous number of opinions, with some direction mixed in. The library was a great help, but I was also looking for others practical successes (and failures) to round out the information found in the Library.

I recognize that everyone here is obviously passionate about what we do. However, when trying to learn about a process that I wanted to try, it was sometimes daunting to be confronted with such a broad range of information, much of it conflicting.

I don't know what the best presentation method may be, but I am more than willing to help out.

BTW, I am now consistently using a CA/BLO finish with great results, due in large part to the information I found at this site. However, I continue to find that I am at this site on a regular basis searching for the perfect finish. While, intellectually, I recognize that this may be tilting at windmills, I continue in my quest undaunted.

Eskimo
 
I'll play Devil's advocate, here...

Much of this is very well intended. I agree with it, but not 100%. Even the subjects that get asked 500 times a month are still evolutionary. I'm all in favor of encouraging people to search before you ask. But if there is something new to add to the subject, where is the opportunity to update what a person finds when they're told to search?

The benefit of people asking the same questions over and over again is that the answers can remain fresh. The people who DO venture out and try new things will ultimately discover some new information that should be shared with the collective. Currently, the most common opportunity for this new information to be added to the collective is when someone asks that same old question. If we're encouraging people to find their own answers, it would be good if there was a way to keep the stockpile of information from going stale.

It really cuts down on the chatter of a board when people are discouraged from asking the same mundane questions. Wether that's good or bad is up to the group as a whole, but it seems to me like this place would really quiet down.
 
The advanced search is a piece of crap. Fortunately, it's not my code [:D] Standard search uses a completely different approach and doesn't time out very often.

So are we looking to form a "content support group"?? That would be really nice. I'd like to see a group like that work on overall content development including creating FAQs, etc., assembling a list of links, "motivating" authors to write articles and tutorials, etc. In the first year of our existence we got dozens of new articles. We've had about three in the last year. This site is all about education and we need to get back at it.

How about this... If you want to participate, send me an email. Once we get a handful of you, I'll create a forum for you to use as a workspace.
 
Originally posted by jeff
<br />The advanced search is a piece of crap. Fortunately, it's not my code [:D] Standard search uses a completely different approach and doesn't time out very often.

We've had about three in the last year. This site is all about education and we need to get back at it.

How about this... If you want to participate, send me an email. Once we get a handful of you, I'll create a forum for you to use as a workspace.
Click to expand...



As one who has had virtually NO success with the search function, this piece of information is VERY valuable!!! In the future, I will attempt to avoid the advanced search which, I thought, was more specific and should yield BETTER results. But, alas, I have read the "timeout" message MANY times.

Regarding the tutorials, I would be happy to volunteer to write a couple - I am in the midst of "Peppermills" now. Does this topic belong on a penturning site?????

I'd certainly make it available to the IAP if you want it, I thought it really did NOT belong here.

YOUR CHOICE!!!![:D][:D][:D]
 
Out here in the west where we have lots of horses and not a lot of water anymore, we have a saying about leading horses to water. Unfortunately, the same applies here. You can have the greatest, most up-to-date, most complete library of articles and information that's very easy to use, but you can't force anyone to use it. Some people are just basically lazy and want everything handed to them. As long as it's easier to post a question than look for something, you'll get the same questions being asked over and over again. I don't think there's any way to overcome that.
 
I am fairly new to this site and pen turning and have learned to use the library, articles, and posts. I have labored in the search mode and sometimes I found what I was looking for and sometimes I never found it at all. However, in the act of never finding what I was looking for I found so much other good information that the pain of not finding was diminished by the great other stuff I found.

I do think a FAQ section would be very helpful to newbies. Probably could be organized along the same topics as our forum topics. If I were not so computer challenged I would volunteer.

On the other hand, people learn in different ways and have different personalities. Some folks are detailed linear thinkers and research comes as second nature. Other folks are high energy riskers and their minds move too fast for tedious research and they will probably never do it. They are not lazy, it's just not the way they learn. So, I agree with Gerry that some will never do it because it's just not in their nature and does not fit their behavior patterns.
However, any help like has been mentioned in this thread will be a benefit to a lot of people and I hope enough geek types volunteer to help us non-geek folks find answers. I do like this site!
 
Originally posted by gerryr
<br />... Some people are just basically lazy and want everything handed to them. As long as it's easier to post a question than look for something, you'll get the same questions being asked over and over again...
Click to expand...
Jery, this is not directed at you, I'm just using your comment as an example since it is shared by so many.

Just something for everyone to think about before applying too many labels to the newbies.

Ever notice how silly, repetative or simple some of the questions seem? Almost to the point of... "I can't believe someone would ask such a question"! Ever wonder why? Ever think that some folks just want to be part of the forum?

They don't have anything to contribute yet as far as sage advice, sharing techniques or assisting others, <b>so the ONLY way they have of interacting is to ask questions!</b>

If you go to great lengths to discourage newbies from asking questions, you will run a lot of new members and potential new friends away, is that what ya'll really want?

Guys, does it really bust your chops to have to answer a question that has been asked 713 times before? If so, just skip over the posts, but come on... don't cripple the new folks from participating the only way they know how!

Think back.... to when you joined the forum, remember how excited you were when you posted and folks replied to YOU? Made you feel like you were one of the guys didn't it?

So, do you want to have a clear division of veterans/newbies or would you rather have new mwmbers feel as if they are welcome and part of the cyber family?

Just think about it a while, it might make sense!

George
 
Originally posted by Texatdurango
<br />Guys, does it really bust your chops to have to answer a question that has been asked 713 times before? If so, just skip over the posts, but come on... don't cripple the new folks from participating the only way they know how!

George
Click to expand...


George,

You have valid points but I think there is also a double edge sword here. How welcome would a newbie feel if he asked the question for the 714th time and everyone skipped over his post and there was no replies?

I remember when I started; I remember lurking for weeks reading the articles and absorbing all the information that I could before I made my first post. I remember asking a question and being asked if I had bothered to search the archives because my answer was there. I posted that I had, and even posted a couple links that I had found but were not the answerers that I was looking for. I show that I tried to find the answer myself but failed and then a member showed me where it was and we have become good friends.

I think the crux of this thread is to let folks know that they should at least take the time to search for the answer themselves before they post a question that has been asked 713 times before.
 
I agree with Jason and George.

Though we want to encourage everyone to learn how to use the search function...we also want to keep updating answers to previous questions. New products come out, new application of old products are discovered, new twists can be added to an old procedure, etc. I cannot count the times that I've seen same questions that got fresh answers and ideas.

I also agree that a forum is a place where people "talk" and if the newbies get shy asking questions, the forum may die. Old timers may know other members well enough to post BS over anything (like yours truly [:D] ) but that is a luxury new comers don't have. We need all the fresh blood to come out and if asking questions (even if asked a million times before) will open the door for them...I would encourage them to do so.

There is of course a happy medium for all these and as far as I am concerned...the forum is GREAT as it is right now. [:)]
 
Scott (Mudder): I remember when I started; I remember lurking for weeks reading the articles and absorbing all the information that I could before I made my first post. I remember asking a question and being asked if I had bothered to search the archives because my answer was there. I posted that I had, and even posted a couple links that I had found but were not the answerers that I was looking for. I show that I tried to find the answer myself but failed and then a member showed me where it was and we have become good friends.

Scott was one of two people that pointed me to this forum almost 3 years ago, and his answer above was very similar to my experience. When I have a problem, I usually go to the search or archives first, or to the links and articles on the home page of IAP. (BTW, I started with the article links on the home page and still go to those often.)

To me, the greatest benefits that I have received have been the 1. searches and links, 2. the journey of experiences -both failures and discoveries, 3. people's answers and usually in that order. I really appreciate answers and help, <b> but good questions usually reflect that the problem has been researched and solutions have been attempted. </b> I learned this from some great teachers and my dad a long time ago.

Good inquiries for help don't make blanket statements - that some well used method is a failure because one or several people cannot duplicate it. That reflects arrogance, and most experienced people, who could help, will stay away from helping. Or it will start a flame war . . . or bring out the painful truth. [;)]

Lou wrote on the first page of this post: Pen making should be an adventure with some excellent side trips and some that don't pan out. &lt;snip&gt; How can you know the answer for you if you consistently look for a quick answer.

For me, <b>the journey of pen making</b> is/has been as much fun as the finished product. I loved Old Griz's, Lou's and many other's beautifully designed and finished pens. I am no where near those standards, but the journey to get that level is as much fun as the finished product. I am kinda glad that journey's end is still far off, because I know that I am going to discover a lot more between now and then!

Yep, ask questions, but let the content of the questions reflect that "some" effort, desire and thought has been attempted before hand.
 
This thread has certainly matured.

I enjoy good discussions, thanks to all for some good reading.[:D][:D][:D]

But, it's not the FIRST time this topic has been discussed, either.[:0][:0][:0]
 
Yep, ask questions, but let the content of the questions reflect that "some" effort, desire and thought has been attempted before hand.

Now that should be a sticky!!
 
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