Quality vs Luxury

[Kaspar]

True, and how many recalls have they issued in the last year?????

You think that's really about quality problems? No, it's about The Unicorn Rider and Government Motors (GM) keeping their $70 an hour pay scale for the UAW and taking out Non-Union Toyota, which has been a Made in The USA product for a while now.

 

[Smitty37]

You might be right

Not quite. It is meeting ONE definition of 'quality'.



I disagree on the product that does not meet it's own standard not
being a quality product.. Your example of the VW and the Mercedes is
a good example. The $80,000 Mercedes is still a higher quality vehicle
than the $30,000 VW, even if it misses it's own spec by 2 mph. (provided
that there is no other serious problem) Whether you're talking of higher
quality materials, better safety testing, higher performance engine etc..
there is a higher degree of excellence in the aggregate. Now, whether
this higher degree is worth the extra money or even desired is another
matter, but there is no question that the two vehicles have a different
level of quality.

There are too many 'quality' areas under discussion here. A Rolex that
doesn't work is of poor quality design or poor quality workmanship. If it
is a poor design, the product should never have been released. If it is
poor workmanship, there is poor quality control.

Quality as a degree of excellence is not a luxury, it is an external standard
applied to the company or product by the consumer.
The consumer decides what they consider acceptable (and yes, that can be
a moving target) and the company attempts to fill the need when they
design, market and manufacture their product. In some cases, the company
will pre-emptively determine the degree of excellence that will go into
the product, but this is still based on consumer need/preference.



A quality control problem can be changed. Poor quality workmanship can
be changed. Poor quality design can be changed. Better quality control
cannot fix a poor quality design.

And defining quality as simply 'meeting spec' will never allow you to
achieve any higher degree of excellence than what was already built into
the design to begin with.. because by your definition, you are already
producing a quality product.

I refuse to settle for a product whose definition of 'quality' is that it
meets it's own low standards. It needs to meet MY standards. It needs to meet your tastes, and every product you buy that is subjected to QC meets only its own specifications. It might by accident also meet yours, if so you buy it. It is offered for sale attempting to have set specifications for itself that will be acceptable to enough people to make it profitable.



The word 'quality' has already been corrupted to the point where it is
almost meaningless. Perhaps it is time for new terms. On this point we are in agreement completely..we wouldn't be having this debate if that were not so, I happen to believe this has already caused (or at least contributed to) us (the USA) a lot of grief and loss of important industry.(plural)

This time I'm really leaving....but the fact that there are so many different ideas of what quality is tells me the country better start having this debate. When I was a young man if someone told me something was high quality it meant that it was well made and did what it was supposed to do. Now people tell me that high quality means it costs a lot and has lots of bells and whistles that I may not need or want....

The original Zippo lighter is my idea of a quality product...hasn't changed in about 70 years, best guarantee in the world...is well made, and works. Available at many different prices...but they all work and the inside is always the same.

 

[ed4copies]

Hey Eric!! Good to see you post!

Japan has a financial problem--has for a decade. But the durability and general suitability for the purpose (which some of us call quality) has become a standard in many industries.

China CAN produce products that also have those "qualities". Nearly every copier and computer printer that has come into the USA in the last decade is from China. Japanese companies---Chinese production.

They all work MUCH better than equipment made twenty years ago in Japan, or equipment made thirty years ago in Miami, Fl (the only US manufacturer I recall). So, yes the Chinese CAN make "good" stuff. And, I hope someday soon they make good pen components.

I do believe we are slightly off target when we aim at "Made in China" as the villain. I prefer to consider "Made like crud" as the villain.

I will not be surprised to see "Made in India, VietNam or Korea" on pen components in the future. I will try to continue to open those samples with an equally open mind and test them. IF they "screw together right", they will get my full consideration. IF not, they are not good enough for MY customer.

I now understand how a "Quality" umbrella can turn inside-out in a 20 mph wind. The "Quality control" folks thought it only needed to survive a gentle breeze of 5 mph, so it met spec!! To THEM it was a quality product.
To me, it quickly became useless garbage.

 

[ed4copies]

Ok, I'm done. Where's my animated gif file of the guy beating the horse?

I believe we can now just refer to THT ("Tenderized Horse Threads")----it can be our own, IAP inside joke!!

Congrats to Smitty for STARTING our first THT!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Moosewatcher]

Your discussion reminds me of the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance" by Robert Pirsig. A teacher of creative and technical writing at a small college, he became engrossed in the question of what defines good writing, and what in general defines good, or "quality". His philosophical investigations eventually drove him insane, and he was subjected to electroshock treatment which permanently changed his personality. Be carefull! They don't have lathes in the mental wards.


Ken

 

[terryf]

Rolex vs Timex ???

Now we're comparing apples to blueberries. Automatic vs Quartz cannot be compared fairly. A Rolex will never keep time even close to a Timex and will never be able to. The standard for Rolex is -4+6 second per day. The standard for Timex is -0+0 seconds per day.

Rolex is not a luxury item. It tells time just the same as any other wrist watch and in fact does a lot less than most Timex watches can do. A Casio Protrek Tripsensor is more luxurious than a Rolex and its probably a better quality product too.

 

[JerrySambrook]

Is it now....we lost steel, automobiles, and a lot of other products to overseas producers largely because we didn't know what quality was and our competitors did. I don't think that's too funny.

We lost most of these things due to one thing only PRICE

You are now hearing from someone who has seen many jobs personally lost because of outsourcing to the cheapest competitor

For almost 30 years, I have been in the aircraft industry all the way from a machine operator, machinist (there is a difference) to an CERTIFIED ASME LEVEL I, II, And III layout inspector with radiographics as well. I worked my way up the ladder and into design work, getting two degrees on the way.
My last job was to create the two systems to allow the F35 aircraft to fly in the vertical mode. and they both do so flawlessly!

Quality is not JUST about meeting specs, but is about exceeding them without undue stress on other factors, such as cost. One and only one portion of quality has to due with MEETING specs. There is also appearance.
From YOUR definition earlier, if it functions, and only functions, then it is quality. This is bunk.

If I were a betting man, Smitty, I would wager you worked in one of three industries, or better yet places.
Ma Bell/ATT, General Motors or some other american car company, or IBM.
This is the philosophy that these companies tried to keep slaming down our throats, and yet in the end, during the 70's and 8-0's it came back to bite them BIG TIME. They did not want to listen to the consumer, and so it opened up the market for the cheaper, and sometimes less quality items to come into the market.

If you worked for one of the three areas above, then your last statement I quoted is true. If you did not, then the chances you lost to competitors is price.
If you want to further discuss this in a one on one forum, please pm me and I will gladly send you my number, but so far, most of what has been inundated about quality here is really BUMK

Sincerely
Jerry Sambrook

 

[JerrySambrook]

Smitty, you have been around for a while, so you must remember when the steels that first came over from the east were very inferior. The cars rusted worse than Dodges did, and the amount of time they spent in the shop was greater on a percentage basis.
The Japanese DID learn to make things better, and less expensive at the same time. So during the 80's they did start to outdo the US industries, not just in price, but in a quality product as well.

If I go all the way back to what your original premise is, then I have a few questions to ask,
1) you commented that a transmission just needs to put the cartridge in and out. Do you really think if it is not smooth, or does not lock out the cartridge that is is a quality product because it performs the simple function? I am very willing to bet that if you put two identical pens out, and one had a smooth transmission, and the other did not, then the smooth transmission would sell.
2) plating was another item brought up. A plating has more qualities to it than thickness. It also has to have durability, and appearance. Some of this is the type of plating used, how it is applied, and what is underneath this.
There have been quite a few times I have tried a "cheap" kit and found the prep work under ot be very poor, to the point that there were scratches, pinhols and pockmarks. but the plating was sufficient. does this make it a quality product? I have also been making pens back in the very early 90s, and remeber things like three piece pencil kits, tapered and multi step tubes, etc, and how much we paid then for kits. The platings wore off on these in a month or less, but met the spec of the manufacturer then, Is this a quality product?
3) Do you really think because a VW does 82 instead of 80 that is has more quality than the Mercedes? what about ride, durability, other functions? It is more than ONE item that makes quality, not just one.

And as a quality or test person, I really do hope you can see this

Jerry

 

[jttheclockman]

We lost most of these things due to one thing only PRICE

You are now hearing from someone who has seen many jobs personally lost because of outsourcing to the cheapest competitor

For almost 30 years, I have been in the aircraft industry all the way from a machine operator, machinist (there is a difference) to an CERTIFIED ASME LEVEL I, II, And III layout inspector with radiographics as well. I worked my way up the ladder and into design work, getting two degrees on the way.
My last job was to create the two systems to allow the F35 aircraft to fly in the vertical mode. and they both do so flawlessly!

Quality is not JUST about meeting specs, but is about exceeding them without undue stress on other factors, such as cost. One and only one portion of quality has to due with MEETING specs. There is also appearance.
From YOUR definition earlier, if it functions, and only functions, then it is quality. This is bunk.

If I were a betting man, Smitty, I would wager you worked in one of three industries, or better yet places.
Ma Bell/ATT, General Motors or some other american car company, or IBM.
This is the philosophy that these companies tried to keep slaming down our throats, and yet in the end, during the 70's and 8-0's it came back to bite them BIG TIME. They did not want to listen to the consumer, and so it opened up the market for the cheaper, and sometimes less quality items to come into the market.

If you worked for one of the three areas above, then your last statement I quoted is true. If you did not, then the chances you lost to competitors is price.
If you want to further discuss this in a one on one forum, please pm me and I will gladly send you my number, but so far, most of what has been inundated about quality here is really BUMK

Sincerely
Jerry Sambrook

I agree with Jerry and he just reiterated what I had said back in post #62. Cost is the driving factor in this discussion which I can not believe took up this much bandwidth and for what??? Wow.

 

[sefali]

If I go all the way back to what your original premise is, then I have a few questions to ask,
1) you commented that a transmission just needs to put the cartridge in and out. Do you really think if it is not smooth, or does not lock out the cartridge that is is a quality product because it performs the simple function? If that's all spec calls for, yes. I am very willing to bet that if you put two identical pens out, and one had a smooth transmission, and the other did not, then the smooth transmission would sell. Can be attributed to taste, or preference, or luxury over quality.
2) plating was another item brought up. A plating has more qualities to it than thickness. It also has to have durability, and appearance. Some of this is the type of plating used, how it is applied, and what is underneath this.
There have been quite a few times I have tried a "cheap" kit and found the prep work under ot be very poor, to the point that there were scratches, pinhols and pockmarks. but the plating was sufficient. does this make it a quality product? If spec only calls for a certain thickness of plating, and it's met, yes. 1 micron of gold over a pock mark, is still 1 micron of gold. I have also been making pens back in the very early 90s, and remeber things like three piece pencil kits, tapered and multi step tubes, etc, and how much we paid then for kits. The platings wore off on these in a month or less, but met the spec of the manufacturer then, Is this a quality product? If manufacturer's specs did not call for longer lasting platings then it's irrelevant.
3) Do you really think because a VW does 82 instead of 80 that is has more quality than the Mercedes? what about ride, durability, other functions? It is more than ONE item that makes quality, not just one.

And as a quality or test person, I really do hope you can see this

Jerry

I took the liberty to answer some of the questions, since Smitty is no longer participating. Answers based on all of Smitty's replies so far. I didn't answer the VW/Benz ?, because this discussion has always been about cheap slimlines, so no point.

 

[sefali]

Is it now....we lost steel, automobiles, and a lot of other products to overseas producers largely because we didn't know what quality was and our competitors did. I don't think that's too funny.

As you love to say, Wrong. That had nothing to do with not knowing what quality was, and everything to do with not delivering quality, or not delivering it at a competitive price.

 

[mharris]

Kit names??

This thread is enlightening on quality versus luxury etc. I am just wondering if anyone can provide names of manufacturers or companies that sell solid, functional, not 'cheap' meaning metal that will rub off, items from china or places where products may be known to not be the best quality. I'm just looking to step up from some of the slimline pens that seem to not be top of the line. The wall Street from Woodcraft seems like a nice pen but I'm just looking for names that you guys have actually purchased and customers were satisfied and sold well.
Thanks! You can then continue your conversation about what quality means

 

[jttheclockman]

This thread is enlightening on quality versus luxury etc. I am just wondering if anyone can provide names of manufacturers or companies that sell solid, functional, not 'cheap' meaning metal that will rub off, items from china or places where products may be known to not be the best quality. I'm just looking to step up from some of the slimline pens that seem to not be top of the line. The wall Street from Woodcraft seems like a nice pen but I'm just looking for names that you guys have actually purchased and customers were satisfied and sold well.
Thanks! You can then continue your conversation about what quality means

You resurrected a 2010 thread. Almost 9 years ago. Do you know how much the industry has changed in that time?? Alot. You are far better off starting your own thread and will get more response. I will add so many vendors today and so many kits to choose from. Platings have come a long way so unless you are going for titanium and stainless then all are about equal. Look at price and it will tell you quality right away. Anywhere from $4 to $100+ kits.

Oh yea welcome to the site. Happy turning.