wudnhed
Member
Originally posted by ed4copies
<br />Oh, then I was using my time WELL!!!
Almost forgot: I second the "HEY DOC, good to see you!!"[][
Ditto, and miss ya Doc!
Moderators and controversy
- Thread starter Dario
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Ditto, and miss ya Doc!
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Randy_
Member
Seems like both you and Dario missed the point, Gerry!! The thread was locked precisely because the administrators determined that the discussion was or would become disruptive and they "WANTED" it discontinued. You will remember that a mod even politely asked for members to limit the discussion to the original topic...a pen blank...and quit mad-mouthing the mods and their decisions. And you will also remember that the request was ignored by a few individuals who felt they were above the rules.
On some forums I frequent, there are explicitly stated rules that reopening discussions in locked threads is forbidden and violators are subject to immediate banning and on many other forums it is an accepted if unwritten expression of respect for the decisions of the moderating staff to let sleeping dogs lie.
IMO, Jeff has shown remarkable restraint and tolerance for a questionable decision by Dario and suspect that it was a coin toss as to whether or not this thread should be locked and some private warning issued and I suspect that Dario probably got the benefit of the doubt because he is a well respected member of IAP.
In retrospect, I will acknowledge that this thread has produced some good discussion and members have been reasonably well behaved. That fact, however, does not change my opinion that reopening the discussions in locked threads is discourteous and disrespectful of the decisions of the moderating staff. I don't know that this wasn't done, but I think that the only circumstance under which a locked thread should receive a second hearing is after a "PRIVATE" request to the administration is made and granted for permission to do so.
Dario
Member
Randy,
I understand all that you said and you have very good and valid points.
As I said before, I thought of it and knew that by doing so, I am sticking my head out potentially on harms way...still I believe (then and still does) it is better to start this thread than not. In essence, I didn't miss the point in that regard and I became a "rogue" in my own way (Rebel with a cause? []). Believe me, the intent is good though.
People may have vented a bit (me included) but in the long run...I believe it is for the better.
I understand all that you said and you have very good and valid points.
As I said before, I thought of it and knew that by doing so, I am sticking my head out potentially on harms way...still I believe (then and still does) it is better to start this thread than not. In essence, I didn't miss the point in that regard and I became a "rogue" in my own way (Rebel with a cause? [
]). Believe me, the intent is good though.People may have vented a bit (me included) but in the long run...I believe it is for the better.
A lot of sleeping dogs should be left alone, but this wasn't one of them.
Do I like controversy? Not particularly. Do I want this place to operate the way the members want it to? YES, absolutely. Sometimes it takes a Dario to get everyone to throw their cards on the table. I knew that his intent was not to start a huge battle, but rather to discuss. I am sure that if it had gotten out of hand, he would have been one of the first to step in and calm things down.
The situation where someone opens up a new topic on a closed subject for the sole purpose of seeing the fireworks gets handled differently. Maybe it's an arrogant viewpoint, but I think I can tell the difference between that and what Dario did here.
Do I like controversy? Not particularly. Do I want this place to operate the way the members want it to? YES, absolutely. Sometimes it takes a Dario to get everyone to throw their cards on the table. I knew that his intent was not to start a huge battle, but rather to discuss. I am sure that if it had gotten out of hand, he would have been one of the first to step in and calm things down.
The situation where someone opens up a new topic on a closed subject for the sole purpose of seeing the fireworks gets handled differently. Maybe it's an arrogant viewpoint, but I think I can tell the difference between that and what Dario did here.
gketell
Local Chapter Leader
And that is exactly why we all love IAP, Jeff.
Thanks to you and your team for being such reasonable and open folks!!
GK
Thanks to you and your team for being such reasonable and open folks!!
GK
gerryr
Member
Since Jeff has already posted a response to Randy, I will restrain myself.
wdcav1952
Activities Manager Emeritus
I'm with you on this, Gerry. The only thing I would add is that Jeff posted outstanding response to Randy.
RogerGarrett
Member
If there is one thing I have learned in nearly 20 years of teaching in higher education, it is that, regardless of university policy, such policy is only good if it is enforced with zero tolerance. The problem is that zero tolerance is rarely a good thing - it doesn't allow for the nuances of every unique situation - complete with every nuance and twist. Thus, zero tolerance is rarely invoked, and, when it is, it is rarely enforced!!
Of course we should respect and respond to a moderator's request. But we don't do that always and in every instance - because it is contrary to the free association of ideas, thoughts, and opinions. Sometimes, sa in a court of law, protocol is broken to assert a point that is necessary - and, as with a courtroom, a judge (a human being) will take a moment to consider the break in protocol. It happens a lot. In fact, it happens ona daily, probably hourly basis! Therefore, the idea that "reopening the discussions in locked threads is discourteous and disrespectful of the decisions of the moderating staff" may be correct by the rule, but it is contrary to normal, everyday, human interaction - at least normal in a free and open society. And frankly, it is contrary to even those situations which demand that such rules be followed (courtroom).
Dario's post was well accepted by all because he has a reputation of careful, thoughtful, considerate behavior over a long period of time. That track record gives him more flexibility and more leeway than a person who has not demonstrated such positive behavior. Why? People want to trust - and they will trust someone who has been around a long time and shown consistent postings.
The old cliche', rules are meant to be broken, comes into play simply because it always will.
Best wishes,
Roger Garrett
Of course we should respect and respond to a moderator's request. But we don't do that always and in every instance - because it is contrary to the free association of ideas, thoughts, and opinions. Sometimes, sa in a court of law, protocol is broken to assert a point that is necessary - and, as with a courtroom, a judge (a human being) will take a moment to consider the break in protocol. It happens a lot. In fact, it happens ona daily, probably hourly basis! Therefore, the idea that "reopening the discussions in locked threads is discourteous and disrespectful of the decisions of the moderating staff" may be correct by the rule, but it is contrary to normal, everyday, human interaction - at least normal in a free and open society. And frankly, it is contrary to even those situations which demand that such rules be followed (courtroom).
Dario's post was well accepted by all because he has a reputation of careful, thoughtful, considerate behavior over a long period of time. That track record gives him more flexibility and more leeway than a person who has not demonstrated such positive behavior. Why? People want to trust - and they will trust someone who has been around a long time and shown consistent postings.
The old cliche', rules are meant to be broken, comes into play simply because it always will.
Best wishes,
Roger Garrett
JimGo
Member
Here ya go, Ed...wouldn't want you to miss out or anything...
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24584&whichpage=4
wdcav1952
Activities Manager Emeritus
OK, it is time to dust off the attorney jokes!!!!!!!!!!! [}
][]
Rifleman1776
Member
Yer no fun. Stick a needle in and wiggle it. [:0][
]Actually, I see very little point in this whole discussion.
Ron in Drums PA
Member
I been reading this thread with great interest and I guess it's time I chime in, especially since it was my topic that may have started this.
When Curtis stepped in and questioned the reasoning behind me posting Eagles pen blank his timing was perfect. I explained my intent and he took action that he thought was necessary. That is what Mods are supposed to do.
It is interesting to note that the topic took twists and turns and evolved into an interesting thread.
For the most part, the majority of the people who visit here are mature and know when to walk away form a conflict.
IAP is a good place to hang out.
When Curtis stepped in and questioned the reasoning behind me posting Eagles pen blank his timing was perfect. I explained my intent and he took action that he thought was necessary. That is what Mods are supposed to do.
It is interesting to note that the topic took twists and turns and evolved into an interesting thread.
For the most part, the majority of the people who visit here are mature and know when to walk away form a conflict.
IAP is a good place to hang out.
Ron is right on. That topic and this one took interesting twists and exposed some things that might not have surfaced otherwise. I really appreciate that.
We're going to engineer a few changes in the way things operate here to address some of these issues. One thing we are going to TRY to do is put more consistency and structure behind moderation and in the rare cases when it's needed, discipline. This is something I've been working on for a long time, but other issues keep pushing it down the list.
I'll keep you all informed as we progress toward a these changes. I think you'll like where we end up.
We're going to engineer a few changes in the way things operate here to address some of these issues. One thing we are going to TRY to do is put more consistency and structure behind moderation and in the rare cases when it's needed, discipline. This is something I've been working on for a long time, but other issues keep pushing it down the list.
I'll keep you all informed as we progress toward a these changes. I think you'll like where we end up.
wdcav1952
Activities Manager Emeritus
Heck Jeff, I like where we are now. This is one of the reasons I like to hang out here. You listen to feedback and keep improving the site.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
DITTO!!!
GaryMGg
Member
Hell, I thought both you two just came here 'cause your gluttons for punishment. []
]
Ron in Drums PA
Member
I thought you where a copier salesman, dittos are old technology, get with the times!
gerryr
Member
That was a good one, Ron.[)]
)]
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Laughed so hard I turned "Ditto purple!!"
(Only the REALLY old farts will get that one - like Ron!!)
(Only the REALLY old farts will get that one - like Ron!!)
M
Mudder
Guest
Although I was alive when Kennedy was president I don't consider myself an "old fart". Just remember one thing Mr. Brown (with the exceptionally light Durango) no matter how old I am, I'll never be as old as you.
http://www.officemuseum.com/Ditto_Model_E41_div_of_Bell__Howell.jpg
I'm old enough to remember when they were called mimeograph machines - and I, too, have suffered the ignominy of purple fingers!
gerryr
Member
What, has this become an "old" contest? I remember 5 cent Coke in 6 ounce bottles from a machine that was full of cold water. Top that![]
]JimGo
Member
Wow Gerry, I saw those things in the Coke museum!
Ron in Drums PA
Member
Do any of you guys remember the smell of a <s>ditto</s> mimeograph machines?
Gerry, I pumped gas when it was 19.9 cents a gallon. I was required to clean both the front and rear windshield of every car that pulled in and ask if they want me to check their oil. My boss would have a canary if he didn't see me open the hood of every car.
I even remember when there was 9 planets, but due to the current budget cuts and layoffs, we now only have 8!
Gerry, I pumped gas when it was 19.9 cents a gallon. I was required to clean both the front and rear windshield of every car that pulled in and ask if they want me to check their oil. My boss would have a canary if he didn't see me open the hood of every car.
I even remember when there was 9 planets, but due to the current budget cuts and layoffs, we now only have 8!
gerryr
Member
I remember that smell. It was, uh, unique.[xx(]
alamocdc
Member
Ron, I only knew them as mimeograph machines. And the smell of freshly mimeographed papers was one of my favorites. I used to volunteer to run the copies just so I could smeel it... okay, it's not like y'all didn't already know I was a bit weird.[
]My grandfather owned full service gas stations until he retired. He had at least one of the cold water bath Coke machines (maybe he just kept taking it with him to the new station). Anyway, the 6 ounce bottles hung on rails and dangled in the water. You would have to snake the bottle through the rail maze to get it out (after depositing your nickel, of course). When I was in High School I worked for him, and every gas purchase regardless of amount (16.9 cents/gallon) came with a clean windshield, oil level check, and correctly adjusted tire pressure.
Of course back then we still left our doors unlocked and a kid could ride his bicycle 5 miles to the swimming pool on the other side of town without mom and dad giving it a second thought. For the sake of my grandchildren, I truly miss those days.
I don't want to cast any aspersions on some of the "old timers" who obviously suffer from CRS, but the bottles were 6-1/2 ounces. []
]
Ron in Drums PA
Member
Originally posted by alamocdc
<br />
Ron, I only knew them as mimeograph machines. And the smell of freshly mimeographed papers was one of my favorites. I used to volunteer to run the copies just so I could smeel it... okay, it's not like y'all didn't already know I was a bit weird.[
My grandfather owned full service gas stations until he retired. He had at least one of the cold water bath Coke machines (maybe he just kept taking it with him to the new station). Anyway, the 6 ounce bottles hung on rails and dangled in the water. You would have to snake the bottle through the rail maze to get it out (after depositing your nickel, of course). When I was in High School I worked for him, and every gas purchase regardless of amount (16.9 cents/gallon) came with a clean windshield, oil level check, and correctly adjusted tire pressure.
Of course back then we still left our doors unlocked and a kid could ride his bicycle 5 miles to the swimming pool on the other side of town without mom and dad giving it a second thought. For the sake of my grandchildren, I truly miss those days.
Okay Billy, You're old...
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Ah, yes, my friend, but it DOES give you something to which to aspire!![:0][:0][:0]
mdburn_em
Member
Ron and Billy,
4 miles (3.5 minutes) from here, down the highway, they wash the windows...all of them, they will ask the ladies if they want the oil checked.
Nobody locks their cars, takes the keys out or locks their houses. My mom doesn't have a key to the house and if she had one, she'd have had to put a lock on the door(s).
Tourists freak out because they don't know why all those people keep waving to them as they pass on the highway.
Don't try and pull off the road to eat your lunch. You'll keep getting interrupted by folks stopping to ask if you need help, a ride and if it's at night, a place to sleep until the garage opens in the morning.
It's not all gone.
It's why I moved back.
4 miles (3.5 minutes) from here, down the highway, they wash the windows...all of them, they will ask the ladies if they want the oil checked.
Nobody locks their cars, takes the keys out or locks their houses. My mom doesn't have a key to the house and if she had one, she'd have had to put a lock on the door(s).
Tourists freak out because they don't know why all those people keep waving to them as they pass on the highway.
Don't try and pull off the road to eat your lunch. You'll keep getting interrupted by folks stopping to ask if you need help, a ride and if it's at night, a place to sleep until the garage opens in the morning.
It's not all gone.
It's why I moved back.
woodbutcher
Member
Mark, where do you live? I need to buy some land there!
Roy99664
Member
Over moderated? Under moderated? I don't feel qualified to say. I do know, however, that without this site I probably wouldn't be participating in this fantastic hobby. I would have lost interest long ago. Knowing that there are others that share my passion keeps me interested. I enjoy reading the posts, learning new things, and viewing the new pictures. Keep up the good work! And, thanks!
Yes I remember those old Coke machines, and, no we still don't lock our doors up here. []
Yes I remember those old Coke machines, and, no we still don't lock our doors up here. [
]
wdcav1952
Activities Manager Emeritus
Jim,
You might find Montana just a mite colder in winter than Florida. [
]
Ron in Drums PA
Member
Jim
Sounds like heaven.
The town I live was once the same way, and it was only a five years ago when it changed. My area was once listed as one of the top 10 safest towns in USA. No longer, I miss it.
It's funny you posted this because my wife keeps on telling me that we need to move to Montana when we retire.
I can tell you why it changed, but that is too political for this thread/forum.
mdburn_em
Member
Jim,
The summers are great. Winters can be a <s>bi</s> er, nasty.
I really appreciate Jeff and the people who take on the unenviable task of moderating. The fact this thread got past the first page and people have been able to "work the kinks out" here, demonstrates why I like this site so much. Due to the winter and my school schedule, I couldn't turn from last August until May but I felt like I could stay in touch, learn and keep the fires stoked by hanging around the rapscallions on this site.
The summers are great. Winters can be a <s>bi</s> er, nasty.
I really appreciate Jeff and the people who take on the unenviable task of moderating. The fact this thread got past the first page and people have been able to "work the kinks out" here, demonstrates why I like this site so much. Due to the winter and my school schedule, I couldn't turn from last August until May but I felt like I could stay in touch, learn and keep the fires stoked by hanging around the rapscallions on this site.
alamocdc
Member
I'd move there in a heart beat... if the winters weren't so dad blame cold! I've heard MT was like that... as well as some small towns in the desert southwest. Hmmm, I could move there...
gerryr
Member
I live about 250 miles from Mark, which out here means we're almost neighbors.[] The middle school our son attended still has a rule on their books that if a student rides a horse to school, the school has to provide a place for it to graze while the student is in school.[:0] We thought about testing it, but it's about 7 miles one way to the school so decided against it.
] The middle school our son attended still has a rule on their books that if a student rides a horse to school, the school has to provide a place for it to graze while the student is in school.[:0] We thought about testing it, but it's about 7 miles one way to the school so decided against it.mdburn_em
Member
Hey Gerry,
I think there's still a law on the books that when someone is released from prison, they're to be provided with a saddle.
Not for me though...I'm 0 for 7 on horse riding...well, the riding is fine it's the rather rapid dismount that's painful. [B)]
I think there's still a law on the books that when someone is released from prison, they're to be provided with a saddle.
Not for me though...I'm 0 for 7 on horse riding...well, the riding is fine it's the rather rapid dismount that's painful. [B)]
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