Moderators and controversy

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Originally posted by jeff
<br />Let's hear what you all feel is effective moderation.
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My suggestion: One moderator for any given thread. If a moderator is posting for the reason of moderation in a thread the other moderators should respect the decision(s) of that moderator.

Another suggestion that would help the moderators do their job:

If a comment was not directed at you (a member) then keep quite about it! Let the person that the comment was directed at handle the comment in the way they see fit. If you just can't let the comment go by, report it via PM to a moderator or Jeff.
 
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Hi all,
I've read all the posts in this topic and in Ron's topic about his blank, I will not post about this because I wil stay neutral ( as you know in Belgium we have two different communities and we are familiar with compromises [B)])
But I like to tell you something ;
This site is a great site ! When I take my membership I don't no if I should stay long on this place, but now every morning when I go to my computer I log in and read the new posts.
If I had no membership here, probably I should never have turning one pen. It's thanks to what I read here that I'm now able to do that. I'm not a great penturner, my turnings are more bowls, vases and other turned pieces. But what I can do in penturning I learned it here.
I had also the opportunity to meet nice people, ready to share their skills with others, I've made a couple of friends too.
I wish we could have in Belgium a forum like this, but our country is too small. That's the reason why I'm member in other forums around the world. There are good ones, like here, but there are others where it's not funny. Here is a lot of activity, every day new posts, while on some other forums you have a post from time to time.
We are all of us just men with our opinions and statements, let us just stay what we are here, WOODTURNERS [:)]
Have nice turnings,
clem
 
OK Guys, there is an exchange over in the Eagle thread that shows how difficult it is to moderate a forum. Here it is. I have removed teh names so no one thinks I am picking on anyone. Obviously you can go to that thread and see who it is.

Originally posted by ****
<br />
Originally posted by ****
Please do not imply that is exactly what he would do anyone. I received a different treatment when it came to shell casings
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This IS the type of post that's NOT NEEDED. I don't know much history but I know the history between these two is bad.
Without the ability to defend himself, NONE of us should saying anything further about the MAN personally. Talk about his skill all we want, but leave HIM out.

Please.

Respectfully,
****
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My first reaction as a moderator is to remove the first person's post as being potentially inflamatory. However, for those who do not believe anything should be removed unless it is a direct personal attack, what would you do?

The first person relaying his experience. Is this a direct personal attack? Should a moderator such as myself delete it or let it stay? Please overlook the names of the players and look only at the meat of the message.
 
Curtis,

As far as I see it...it is still just an exchange of information/views. Nothing there constitute an attack (yet). I know it is closing a potential flare up but as I said...most of the time people actually know to back off before it reaches that point. Shows my faith to this group which maybe misplaced [}:)] lol.

I think what we need is an aggressive campaign to educate members what acts are not acceptable...then implement the punishment (ban if needed) for violations. As Jeff said...it takes 2 to tango...hit all that participates. I don't think too many will take the risk...we love this place too much [;)]

Just make sure that the punishment is equitable AND implemented fairly to everyone.

BTW, this can also solve the Critique forum question...let it open for everyone, just let them know the rules and consequences for violating the rules.

If this works, you will hardly have to do much moderating...we will self police...the way it should be to begin with.
 
Originally posted by Dario
<br />... I think what we need is an aggressive campaign to educate members what acts are not acceptable...then implement the punishment (ban if needed) for violations. As Jeff said...it takes 2 to tango...hit all that participates. I don't think too many will take the risk...we love this place too much [;)]
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Dario - nice idea, but someone will ALWAYS be unhappy with the interpretation of the rules or the punishment, and it is absolutely, positively impossible to take out the personal relationship component of that. Once that happens, the "friends of the punished" or the "friends of the victim" band together, email me and the mods or pile on in the forum.

We have a bunch of rules, but a lot of them boil down into one thing: No personal attacks. DEFINE THAT! It's impossible because everyone has a different idea of what it is. Until you can break that down into absolutes, including what words you can string together in what particular order, you will always have people who disagree with the rules or the interpretation.

I've gotten several emails in the last few hours from people who say they read personal attacks in some of these recent topics. Do you see them? I don't, but others do. So, right this minute, several people are unhappy that I'm not banning this or that person or sending emails warning them to leave someone alone. You guys have no idea how much time this takes and how frustrating it is.
 
It may not be an attack, but unless person two ("This IS the type of post that's NOT NEEDED") is a moderator I would say they are over stepping. Let the moderators moderate.
 
FWIW, Cozee and I will discuss this as adults because we can control our tempers and emotions and maintain respect for one another even if it turns out we end up disagreeing.
We may or may not agree, but if we disagree, we will do it amicably.
I sent Jeff a PM <b>AND</b> I posted part of my rationale because I wanted to discuss it openly with Greg. This community needs to make a decision as to whether we will stick to the craft OR discuss the crafter. I say the crafter is off-limits because NO ONE has thick enough skin to deal with it.

How many of you guys have witnessed fights on other forums because two guys who were friends were giving each other sh*t and a stranger jumped in to defend one of 'em?!?

Scott, I see your point yet I don't know if I can agree because I agree with Dario that we as a community should help keep things right. The moderators and Jeff can tell me if I'm over the line and I will abide by the rules.

Regards,
Gary
 
Community Standards. That is what defines the boundaries.

Unfortunately the desire to not offend anyone (or not to feel offended) leads to very restrictive acceptable behavior. To the point that even if you do not realize you were insensitive towards someone that lack of knowledge does not diminish your fault.

Maybe we need sensitivity training?
 
As a small business owner and salesman, I receive "sensitivity training" every day. If I SAY the right things, people BUY from me, if not, they don't. So, if I like eating and sleeping under a roof, it's best to learn "sensitivity".

I received an e-mail last night referring to sensitivity training, as large business/government requires apparently. Believe me, the statements made by the e-mailer over time would NOT entice me to think he holds ME in very high regard.

I'm not sure I have said this publicly, but I believe that you can SAY anything you want to about me. While I may resent it, I have the option of IGNORING it. It takes TWO to make an argument. And, as I have said to numerous people, YOU can't throw a rock and HIT me!!! So, my physical well-being is intact!

Jimmie Kimmel had an interesting quote the other night. A "nastygram" had been sent to him, stating he was uneducated and stupid (or words to that effect). He read the piece publicly, then showed it. There were misspellings! He simply countered with, "When accusing someone of being uneducated, it is best to spell the words correctly, or your meaning can get lost!" (paraphrased, my memory is not that good).

As we used to say, "Consider the source!"[:0][:0] No rocks will hit me, let people SAY whatever they wish.
 
Originally posted by jeff
[brI've gotten several emails in the last few hours from people who say they read personal attacks in some of these recent topics. Do you see them? I don't, but others do. So, right this minute, several people are unhappy that I'm not banning this or that person or sending emails warning them to leave someone alone. You guys have no idea how much time this takes and how frustrating it is.
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I'm glad I don't have your job!
 
Originally posted by JimGo
<br />
Originally posted by jeff
[brI've gotten several emails in the last few hours from people who say they read personal attacks in some of these recent topics. Do you see them? I don't, but others do. So, right this minute, several people are unhappy that I'm not banning this or that person or sending emails warning them to leave someone alone. You guys have no idea how much time this takes and how frustrating it is.
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I'm glad I don't have your job!
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Agreed. [:)]

What I have a hard time understanding and maybe because I am a little old school is, when I grew up in my house, I knew the rules, it was pops rules or the door. Being the youngest, I learned a lot easier after seeing my brother get knocked out by pops! My kids grew up under the same rules, My rules, the door or the back yard and we settle this.

We are losing sight of whose house this is. Who are we to question the owner and how he runs his business. We visit this site and enjoy it for what it is. You don't like, you know where the door is.
 
Anthony,

Jeff TRIES to accomodate the "majority". I applaud his efforts. But, the "Rules", like all rules, are subject to interpretation.

That's what keeps the court system in business - INTERPRETING the "perfectly clear" legislation that made the RULE.

Jeff tries to be legislature and court system all in one - it ain't easy!

And, Jeff, while we sometimes disagree - I respect your efforts.
 
Jeff,

What if you create a "jury" panel from the members? Maybe you make an initial pool and then randomly select from that pool for each case.

You and the moderators bring the case to the "jury" who in turn will basically decide whether the alledged offender is guilty or not and decide on the appropriate punishment (by majority vote say). You implement after (the executioner [:D]).

I think if the group knows that a good jury is formed, there will be less forming of a rouge "pack" later whatever the outcome is.

Just a suggestion.
 
Dario,

What's a "rouge" pack? Is that a pack of something women used to put on their faces?[:D]

Sorry, the debil made me do it.[}:)]
 
Originally posted by gerryr
<br />Dario,

What's a "rouge" pack? Is that a pack of something women used to put on their faces?[:D]

Sorry, the debil made me do it.[}:)]
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I think you got that right [:I]...you "rogue"! [}:)]
 
The answer to all the problems here is very obvious, and it deeply suprises me to know that none of you thought of it before I, but I suppose my heightened inteliganse cannot be helped.

You see, we must kill Eagle, and burn all his pens, all his projects, and his ideas. Only then will we reach the perfection that we all seek so selflessy and fairly.

It's a brilliant solution! However, none of you have the foresight and leadership to realize the wonders that can be shared by an electric chair.
C'mon, admit it, after seeing his mixture of imagination, craftsmanship, and dedication, you're all worried that Eagle might be able to worm himself out of the, erm, solution and come back at you with a vengance.
Isn't that right, Dario? I know why you've never suggested Eagle's demise, don't tell me you never thought of throwing him into a pool of angry sharks.

To be honest, I think much of the blame can be put on one of our most deceptive members and leaders, jeff for example, who's always trying to uphold the peace. *sigh* What is the internet coming to? Equality? Justice? Moderation? What the heaven would we accomplish with that kind of thinking?
It was Jeff's fault that this Eagle controversy stuff started anyways. If he'd just thrown Eagle into a black hole like I suggested way back then, all of this could've been avoided...

The Mods...
You know, always on their feet, ready for a problem or argument that will start up, always waisting their time...
If they'd simply let the problem explode, then we the decent members of IAP could ban together and kill the obvious controversial members.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, we gotta have mods that worry about the feelings and dignity of others, weak mods that apologize just when a beautiful storm has been triggered.

Really, I thought this was the IAP, I'm terribly dissapointed in many members whom I would purposfully name simply to generate bad feelings, but it's become obvious that the mods have gone soft and might shut me down.

Terribly dissapointed...

I'm gonna get you, Eagle, and your pretty pens too!
 
Can someone point me to the original thread which was locked????? I am fascinated by this discussion - but I can't find the thread that started it all. I need to be well-informed!

Thanks.

Best wishes,
Roger Garrett
 
Originally posted by RogerGarrett
<br />Can someone point me to the original thread which was locked????? I am fascinated by this discussion - but I can't find the thread that started it all. I need to be well-informed!

Thanks.

Best wishes,
Roger Garrett
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Roger,

It is unlocked now.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24549
 
Thanks Dario,

I read all five pages.

Fascinating really. Just fascinating.

I was a member of a listserv that was moderated only to the extent that if someone said or did something that could be determined illegal - or they just kept spamming, then they were booted. There was no such thing as a locked thread.

I rather like this format better.

But regarding the particular thread - no opinion. They've all been given, and mine wouldn't mean anything to anyone.

That really was a cool pen blank.

BTW - can someone point me to the original thread regarding Eagle and his departure? Is it in the archives? I didn't even know he left. But maybe I should have - since I haven't seen a post from him in a long time.

Darn - he was always nice to me!

*sigh*

Best wishes,
Roger Garrett
 
Originally posted by Dario
<br />Jeff,

What if you create a "jury" panel from the members? Maybe you make an initial pool and then randomly select from that pool for each case.

You and the moderators bring the case to the "jury" who in turn will basically decide whether the alledged offender is guilty or not and decide on the appropriate punishment (by majority vote say). You implement after (the executioner [:D]).

I think if the group knows that a good jury is formed, there will be less forming of a rouge "pack" later whatever the outcome is.

Just a suggestion.
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I've thought about that approach. In fact I've had a rough outline of how it would work sitting here on my desktop for a while.

One thing I notice is the rapid pace here at which (1) things go wrong, (2) people expect action. It takes time to work through the jury process. I guess the solution would be to post a note in a topic when it's locked indicating that it's being looked at. I'm sure even THAT would annoy some people.

Regardless, that's probably the direction we should head. It would give us a little more structure, which could provide a little more legitimacy to the process of discipline, and take the load of me [8D]
 
Originally posted by ed4copies
<br />This comment courtesy of "the brilliant and the intellectually gifted!"[:0][:0][:0]
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Jeff runs a great site, and while things do get nit picky and uncomfortable, (%99 of the time caused by a button called "enter" being hit too soon) as Curtis showed, he is ready to apologize for a simple overreaction.

The mods hit it a bit too quickly THIS time, and besides the apology, it's no big deal anyways.

There's no reason for you mere mortals to make the mods look like the bad guys, there are plenty of us exceptionally smart and very good looking people here to do that.


BTW, that's a nice churchhill on the homepage, Roger.[;)]
 
Originally posted by chitswood
BTW, that's a nice churchhill on the homepage, Roger.[;)]
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Son of a gun - didn't even notice they featured it on today's homepage. Thanks for the heads up Derek!

Regarding moderators - I kind of like Dario's idea regarding a jury. The membership could vote on the "jury" membership after nominations are made once every 6 months - with no opportunity to continue after one term (6 months or a year) - until another term has gone by - and then be voted back on. But this is a moderator's headache to oversee. Trust me - I serve on both university wide and department wide committees - elected and appointed - at my university. What a political quagmire! [xx(]

Whatever is decided - it might take some time to set up. But - I agree with the majority on one thing - this is an issue that should probably be addressed. However - one very cool thing about this website is that the moderators are asking the questions and open to suggestions - and the membership is responding openly, honestly, and eagerly. This is a sign of a VERY healthy membership - and that only comes from good moderators and good members. Pat yourselves on the back folks!

Best wishes,
Roger Garrett
 
Wow - I tried to edit my last reply - because of an error in my suggestion - to clean it up a bit - and I receive a message that I may not edit my post in this forum.

What the hell is THAT all about???

Best,
Roger Garrett
 
Forum time limits have been in place for almost a year. This is very typical on many forums. It helps preserve the integrity of the flow of conversation by not allowing people to go back and change the intent of their post. That has been a problem here in the past. We've had members get ticked off and go back and delete dozens of their posts as a parting gift to the rest of us.

The edit time in casual conversation is 30 minutes. That's usually enough to recognize an error and make the fix. That said, I realize that in some cases, honest mistakes don't show up until later. Unfortunately, the software time limit is across the board and can't be overridden or set for a single user.

I will gladly make editorial (but not basic content) changes in a post if you'll send me an email.
 
WRT a jury of our peers and the speed at which things happen I suggested something earlier elsewhere that may be reasonable IF the software allows you to do it.

Some forums have a notification button that sends a message to the moderators with the thread in question auto-linked.
So, IF something like that can be programmed to the interface as an Alert and IF let's say 5-6 users send the moderator team an alert, the thread is auto-locked and hidden until the moderators can look at it and deal with it.
This could work because only the moderators and the individual sender know that an alert has been sent. With all the different personalities here, what's really that chance that so many of us will find something offensive or an attack unless it is?
Even if we err, we err on the side of caution.
The thread can be easily brought back if none of the moderators sees a problem.
Moreover, if some user{s} disabuse the alert button -- that is, chicken little hits the panic button too often -- it's disabled for their account. No one else has to know that's happened (unless they make it publicly known).

It's just more code. [}:)][;)]

Gary
 
Originally posted by GaryMGg
<br />It's just more code. [}:)][;)]
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That's Funny!

I will be installing such a mod soon. Not the multi-submission part, but an easier way to report a questionable post.
 
I'm not sure that I agree with the jury idea. I think that a forum like this works best as a dictatorship. Jeff has done a masterful job of running and maintaining this site. I am comfortable submitting to his authority.

jeff
 
Originally posted by jeffj13
<br />I'm not sure that I agree with the jury idea. I think that a forum like this works best as a dictatorship. Jeff has done a masterful job of running and maintaining this site. I am comfortable submitting to his authority.

jeff
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I do too...but the jury idea was supposed to lift some of the "weight" off Jeff's (and the moderators) shoulders. Please read his post prior to that one.
 
Frankly, Dario, I'm still surprised that you even started this thread. You are known as one of the most stable, level-headed, practical and nicest people on this (or other) forum(s). The subject was bound to set off a firestorm. I don't see the point. It is what it is. Jeff 'owns' the site and that closes the door to most further discussion on who and how it should be run. Jeff and I have disagreed several times but I always am sensitive to the fact that he runs things whether I like the way he does it or not. With a few exceptions, I do like the way he runs things. As you know, on another forum (not a pen forum),that we both belong to, the moderation is an effort of a team of three. The members 'own' the forum. But, in reality, there isn't much difference in the outcome.
I respectfully suggest that a "Fini" be put on this thread as, IMHO, it serves no purpose.
 
Frank,

I did think before posting this...and maybe made the wrong decision.

My rationale is that if there is a problem it has to be addressed. Most of the time I will stay silent but I do care for this forum a lot and (in this case) for me is not right (again maybe I am mistaken).

I will repeat that despite the recent events, I still believe this is the best forum around (which I consider my cyber home). I am in no way challenging Jeff's way of running it.

Would I act similar on a different forum given the same situation? Maybe not...maybe because I don't give as much care there as I do here but mainly because I know Jeff listens and that is one reason why I chose this forum as home.

I felt this way about another forum before...but had to move and leave my friends because it doesn't feel like home anymore. Over the years, i've lost contact with so many friends. Moving is my loss really, and would hate to have to do it again.

Like the Eagle thread...I hope good thing(s) come out of this one too. [^]
 
I think Dario is correct in starting this, if he hadn't someone else probably would, like me. The topic that caused this was locked, so there was no way to discuss what went on, other than start a new topic. I think there's been a good exchange of ideas, and I don't recall anyone telling Jeff that he has to change how the site is run. There have been some suggestions, but that's all they were. The site belongs to Jeff so he can do what he wants with those suggestions. If you don't like the subject Frank, you don't need to read it.
 
Originally posted by clement
<br />Hi all,
I've read all the posts in this topic and in Ron's topic about his blank, I will not post about this because I wil stay neutral ( as you know in Belgium we have two different communities and we are familiar with compromises [B)])
But I like to tell you something ;
This site is a great site ! When I take my membership I don't no if I should stay long on this place, but now every morning when I go to my computer I log in and read the new posts.
If I had no membership here, probably I should never have turning one pen. It's thanks to what I read here that I'm now able to do that. I'm not a great penturner, my turnings are more bowls, vases and other turned pieces. But what I can do in penturning I learned it here.
I had also the opportunity to meet nice people, ready to share their skills with others, I've made a couple of friends too.
I wish we could have in Belgium a forum like this, but our country is too small. That's the reason why I'm member in other forums around the world. There are good ones, like here, but there are others where it's not funny. Here is a lot of activity, every day new posts, while on some other forums you have a post from time to time.
We are all of us just men with our opinions and statements, let us just stay what we are here, WOODTURNERS [:)]
Have nice turnings,
clem
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Except for making the bowls, I feel exactly the same way. Thanks Clement and thanks IAP[:D]
 
Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />Frankly, Dario, I'm still surprised that you even started this thread. You are known as one of the most stable, level-headed, practical and nicest people on this (or other) forum(s). The subject was bound to set off a firestorm. I don't see the point. It is what it is. Jeff 'owns' the site and that closes the door to most further discussion on who and how it should be run. Jeff and I have disagreed several times but I always am sensitive to the fact that he runs things whether I like the way he does it or not. With a few exceptions, I do like the way he runs things. As you know, on another forum (not a pen forum),that we both belong to, the moderation is an effort of a team of three. The members 'own' the forum. But, in reality, there isn't much difference in the outcome.
I respectfully suggest that a "Fini" be put on this thread as, IMHO, it serves no purpose.
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Frankly, Frank, I'm surprised that you're frankly surprised that Dario was frank enough to start this thread. Whether Dario is one of the most stable, level-headed, practical and nicest people on this forum isn't the issue. (Doesn't Cav hold that honor??) Accusing Dario of "starting a firestorm" is, in itself, worthy of starting one. Besides, since when does "seeing the point" of a thread matter? Some of the best threads in IAP started off without a point.
Get the point?
[:D]
 
Hey Al, long time no "see"! Since you've been gone I've been told I'm not even intelligent appearing! [:D] Thanks, JimGo. [;)] I may be considered to have a flat head, but a level one is questioned in some corners. [8D]
 
Originally posted by wdcav1952
<br />Hey Al, long time no "see"! Since you've been gone I've been told I'm not even intelligent appearing! [:D] Thanks, JimGo. [;)] I may be considered to have a flat head, but a level one is questioned in some corners. [8D]
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How could I have missed that????[:0][:0][:0][:0]

I always try to agree with JimGo whenever I can!!!!![:p][:p][:p]


HMMMMMMmmmmmmm.[}:)][}:)][;)][;)]
 
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