Jr. Gent and Jr. Statesman Concerns

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Originally posted by DocStram
<br />You talk with your wallet. I'll be purchasing Barons. Maybe, one day, CSUSA will finally get it.
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I don't think they really care, if they would, there should have been more response to all these messages posted here. When Nils was still around here, he did respond much faster and often. I just participated in the last group buy for CSUSA, and have Statesman jr on order. This was my first CSUSA order after the screwed up threads on the Gent Jr some two years ago. Guess, I return them if I don't like the nib, but I just want see it close up.
 
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Originally posted by Mudder
<br />
Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />Rather than string out a bunch of quotes, I'll just reply.
Mudder: My research is only beginning. I hope to post some meaningful findings later. What I posted is good information but it was second hand.
As to drawing, I once saw one of those shows on TV about how things are made and got my 'drawing' information from that. I do believe, however, that centerless grinding would be much more accurate.
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I would hope that a person with the literary background that you want us to believe you have would have at least checked his facts.

I hope you can post some meaningful findings too.[B)]
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Mudder, I believe it was meaningful. It came from qualified folks and I do not doubt the information or it's accuracy. I was only stating, for the record, it was not originated with me and came from others.
 
Originally posted by Mudder
<br />
Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />
Mudder, I believe it was meaningful.
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Then you are in the minority.
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I don't want into another rock throwing contest.
Maybe the kinder and gentler you could edit that post to call it your opinion that I am in the minority. Stating that as an absolute fact without supporting evidence is so harsh I'm in pain. [;)]
 
Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />
Originally posted by Mudder
<br />
Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />
Mudder, I believe it was meaningful.
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Then you are in the minority.
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I don't want into another rock throwing contest.
Maybe the kinder and gentler you could edit that post to call it your opinion that I am in the minority. Stating that as an absolute fact without supporting evidence is so harsh I'm in pain. [;)]
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It's information I received second hand so I believe it to be accurate [:D]
 
I understand your post, but one thing doesn't make sense. Why would the company overseas go through the expense that is involved with changing the molds needed when they didn't have to?
I have personally shown the new nib and old nib to several people and everyone chooses the old nib. So...What is it going to take? The majority of end users and turners agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing.
 
Originally posted by Ron Mc
<br />I understand your post, but one thing doesn't make sense. Why would the company overseas go through the expense that is involved with changing the molds needed when they didn't have to?
I have personally shown the new nib and old nib to several people and everyone chooses the old nib. So...What is it going to take? The majority of end users and turners agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing.
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A very large loss in sales ($$$$). Nothing short of that will get the message across or change their minds IHMO.
 
George is right. If everyone who dislikes the new nib style stops buying kits with it, they will get the message. I will still buy the Jr. Statesman, but only the fountain pen. I do plan to buy some full size Statesman and Gentleman rollerballs to see how they sell. But, I will be buying a lot more Barons than in the past.
 
Actually if we really want to get their attention. Stop buying ALL the kits until they say Uncle. Obviously this thread has not gotten their attention.
 
Who knows? Maybe Eric is fighting tooth and nail with management over the issue. [;)] My guess is they now know how we feel, but they have invested a lot in the change and don't want to accept the loss. Only time will tell if they change course based on our buying habits. I can assure you that I am done buying these rollerball kits until the bullet nose is gone. The Baron is a completely acceptable substitute.
 
since the tooling probably still exists, they should offer both nibs for sale and after a reasonable amount of time, either keep both or winner take all depending on sales totals only.personally I like the Baron nib followed by old style and dislike the new offering.
Herper
 
I called CSUSA and told them how I felt. Who knows if they'll even remember the call? But, maybe if we all make a quick phone call they'll get the message. It doesn't have to be an ugly phone call. Why not just politely let them know how you feel?
 
Originally posted by Ron Mc
<br /> The majority of end users and turners agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing.
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Does anyone seriously think that the only people who buy from them are posting in this thread? To make a statemnt like the majority of users agree would be a far fetched statement unless you actually have access to some sort of survey that would include a cross section of all their customers, not just the few who have posted in this thread. Heck, how many different people have posted in this thread vs the number of members on IAP? How about the number of posters in this thread vs the number of CSUSA customers who purchased these kits in the last year?
 
Mikey,
Your absolutely right. I should have stated:
"The majority of my end users and turners, that have posted in this specific thread, agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing." [;)]
 
Originally posted by airrat
<br />Actually if we really want to get their attention. Stop buying ALL the kits until they say Uncle. Obviously this thread has not gotten their attention.
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Because of this forum, and others, we are the most vocal. However, it is unlikely that in numbers we represent the bulk of their sales.
 
Originally posted by Ron Mc
<br />I understand your post, but one thing doesn't make sense. Why would the company overseas go through the expense that is involved with changing the molds needed when they didn't have to?
I have personally shown the new nib and old nib to several people and everyone chooses the old nib. So...What is it going to take? The majority of end users and turners agree that the new nib just isn't cosmetically appealing.
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It is my understanding that the designs come from the companies here and the overseas factories only make what they are told to do.
 
Originally posted by woodpens
<br />Who knows? Maybe Eric is fighting tooth and nail with management over the issue. [;)] My guess is they now know how we feel, but they have invested a lot in the change and don't want to accept the loss. Only time will tell if they change course based on our buying habits. I can assure you that I am done buying these rollerball kits until the bullet nose is gone. The Baron is a completely acceptable substitute.
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As you say, Jim, "who knows?". Eric has been quiet lately.
 
Originally posted by DocStram
<br />I called CSUSA and told them how I felt. Who knows if they'll even remember the call? But, maybe if we all make a quick phone call they'll get the message. It doesn't have to be an ugly phone call. Why not just politely let them know how you feel?
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If we have to be polite, does that mean we can't tell them what the new rollerball nib really looks like?[;)]
 
Hey everyone,

First, thanks to everyone for your comments- I want to assure you all that I have read every single one and I am not the only person in the company to do so. We take what you say seriously, we really do want to offer the best pens possible and feedback is invaluable to us in doing so. I have not replied to the group as a whole because I wanted to see where the comments would go, the group is a great community and I know that you will all let your opinions be heard.

Personally I still like the new nib much more than the old. All of the talk here has been about asthetics, and I agree that the old nib looks marginally better than the new, but when it comes to functionality I think the new nib wins hands down. After writing with the new one I can't stand using the old ones anymore- the main reason is the diameter of the nib, I think the old one tapered too much. I have one of each here at my desk and every single person I ask to hold one in each hand picks the new nib everytime. No one has ever picked the old nib as a better pen nib. I don't even want to use the old one anymore. Has anyone else reviewed the nib on it's functionality rather than the way it looks? I understand that a large part of selling pens is the way the pen looks, but it seems to me that is mostly determined by the material and the turning job. The other half of selling a pen is the heft, balance, etc. of the pen and I think that selling the new nib should be easier than the old if you can get one in the customer's hand. I must admit ignorance here, I don't sell pens so I could be totally off my rocker.

These are my personal thoughts and feelings feelings and I am just curious if you all hate the new nib (well, the 86% who have voted against it!) just because of looks or if you have even compared the two when writing?

That being said, we are in meetings constantly about our pens, among other things, and we'll use your comments and other feedback from customers not active in this forum, to help us decide what to do with this pen. We will seriously be considering changing our nib, either back to the old one or perhaps a new design that looks like the old one but functions more like the new. We appreciate all of your input and I wanted to let you all know that we are not ignoring you, or any of our customers.

Also, I am curious, many of you say that the baron's nib is the best roller ball nib (even better than our old nib), I have actually never turned a Baron and I wonder why you think so. From the photos the nibs look identical to our old nibs.
Thanks for your help, I do appreciate it!
 
Originally posted by Mikey
Does anyone seriously think that the only people who buy from them are posting in this thread?
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I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who buy from them have never even <b>heard</b> of this website, much less posted here. Most customers probably won't even know there was a change until after purchase, and they surely won't know about the "controversy" surrounding them. Most of those folks will just accept the change (even if they don't like it) because they don't know any better. I know that I bought from them for a long time before I knew this place existed.
Originally posted by ericatcraft
I understand that a large part of selling pens is the way the pen looks, but it seems to me that is mostly determined by the material and the turning job. The other half of selling a pen is the heft, balance, etc. of the pen and I think that selling the new nib should be easier than the old if you can get one in the customer's hand.
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Actually, I'd say it's more like 90% of selling a pen is the way it looks. Has anyone ever actually tried to use, long term, a pen that has decorative beads and coves turned on it? I have, and I can say they are darned uncomfortable to work with over the long term. However, they sell pens because they look good. It's all about the "Wow!" factor. It doesn't matter how much more functional it is, the customer is almost always going to go on looks. Besides, I shouldn't have to "talk" a customer into liking a pen. It should speak for itself.
 
Thanks for commenting, Eric. The nib design is a matter personal taste. I don't like the new one either. Even though I have switched to the Statesman and Jr. Gent II from the Baron, I admit, the Baron has a certain elegance missing from the S&G pens. My personal carry pen is a Baron and the nib feels nice in the hand. The faceted appearance is what sets it off.
Have you (your company) decided to not revisit the drill bit issue with the Gent II ? I believe the conclusion about varying materials is miles off base. If it were correct, you would reccomend an (apparently) oversized bit for every kit. You don't. As far as I know, all the others are properly sized and work just fine in a variety of woods and materials.
 
I am completely new to pen turning and don't know what the old style is like, but I turned my first Jr. Gentleman last week and like it. with the exception of the rollerball getting stuck in the nib I like the design of it. Reminds me of a round nose bullet.
 
Eric,
Why not sell BOTH styles and let you customers make the decision? [?]. I know stocking inventory is a concern; however, over time one of the two will win out or both will sell equally and the company will still be profitable. Isn't it always a win-win situation when ALL customers are satisfied? Case in point, when Coca Cola came out with their "New Coke" they did not stop offering "Coke Classic". What ever happened to "New Coke"? People want a choice!

Respectfully submitted,
Tom
 
Eric, your response is much appreciated. I think you are absolutely correct about functionality of the nib regarding the taper. There is too much room on the old nib that often results in cross-threading when screwing the cap on. If the new nib solves that problem, that's great. It is just the tip of the nib that bothers many of us. A new design that combines the new functionality with a straight tapered tip would be ideal in my opinion.

Thanks again for listening to your customers.
 
Hi Eric ,
Thanks for the feedback. Okay I feel like the odd ball now, I am one of the few who like the new nib and I have had no problem with my sales, go figure. Actually I have had no repeat customer make any comment on the nib change other than, it looks unique and that most of the people who buy pens of this quality from me want something unique.

As nibs go, I do like the Baron nib in the tapered look, it felt better in my hand, but that was the only thing I liked about the Baron and they are not commonly available in Canada.

The last thing I want to see Eric is a Flip Flop by CSUSA on hardware, I am still finding VI Jr Gent hardware in my supply and it has gotten mixed with my V II stock. I also know that on a few occasions quality and fit problems lot to lot in some kits have cost me a kit or two, not happy about that.

I want to commend CSUSA for making the pens kits of choice for me, I seriously would have not gotten into pen sales with out having the quality of hardware on my work that you sell. My expectation is that CSUSA will listen to the voices out here that have the experience of knowing what sells a pen and also what makes a great design. CSUSA has worked hard to develop a great reputation and I have confidence that they will follow through.

I also know that it takes time to make changes and it costs money....what I would like to continue to see is a few new interesting kits annually available in the top plating. What I do not want to see is variation within a kit without notification or the opportunity to exchange what I have for hardware improvements as they happen. You can look at my purchase records and see I do spend a fair amount with CSUSA, and that I burn down my hardware at a fair rate, but having changes between lots in a particular design without notification causes me more problems than what the nib looks like.

I will say and support you in that every single time I have called regarding a quality issue CSUSA has come through and supported my request 100% every time. I have to say for me aside from the quality of the hardware in the kits I purchase , the level of over the phone customer service is added confidence in using your products.
Thanks Eric and CSUSA

Jim on Pen Street[:)]
 
Hi,

Leevis, please don't take my post personnal as probably many unconditionnal CSU defender will do but where is the market study, where is the consultation on their custommer. Did you see any comment or warning or their site telling that the nib was changing?. How many of those receive a kit that don't correspond to what they ordered. Anywhere where their non IAP custummer where warn about anything? <b>They did not care about us nor anyone else</b>. Even the photo on their web site did not show the change and i think that a little "photo is not representative of the kit" is very very easy to put. We are not all their pen business but I think this group is very well representative of the whole penturning community and 87% did not liked it. 100 % of my custommer did not liked it. The worst of all is that many of us just fell like we are bullsh..ted on this whole matter. Good try Eric, but no i don't see any problem with the old nib and it did write dam well. People don't like it period and by the sound of your post, i don't think you really want or <b>CAN</b> bring back the old nib (wich i'm more and more certain). I have never see anyone here complaining about the old nib and as i say we are pretty representative so why (really why) the change?. When you have a busines, appologies and listening is something, care and respect for your cutommers is an other thing. Last post for me on this subject as i'm tired of loosing my time on a sterile discussion, i prefer go in my shop and turn pens,unfortunately with your competitor kits.

Alfred
 
Frank,

The drill bit issue is not in my hands at the moment. I know that Rex (our resident professional and vice president of the company) is looking into it and the part of my original post regarding the bit is me paraphrasing him; I hope I did not misrepresent his thoughts when I made my post. I know that we try and find the best drill bit for the job and one that we can easily maintain in stock or allow customers to find locally. The 10.5mm bit is one I have heard him talk about but it is hard to find a reliable supply of such and odd size bit... basically I don't know what will happen with the issue but I know that we (the company) are thinking about it. I can't guarantee that we'll change our recommendation but I can guarantee that we will recommend the bit that we truly believe is the best all around fit. Your feedback, and that of others regarding the issue, has been helpful and Rex is aware of the sizes you've all quoted. Hope that helps, sorry I don't have any hard answers for you at this time.
 
Originally posted by arioux
<br />Leevis, please don't take my post personnal as probably many unconditionnal CSU defender will do but where is the market study, where is the consultation on their custommer.
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I think you misunderstood my post. It was not a "defend CSUSA" post (if you re-read the last part of my post, you'll see I actually disagree with their assertion that function and aesthetics weight equally). My point was that, even though the overwhelming majority of those posting here do not like the change (myself included), realistically, it will probably have little impact on CSUSA's volume of sales.
 
Originally posted by arioux
<br />Hi,

Leevis, please don't take my post personnal as probably many unconditionnal CSU defender will do but where is the market study, where is the consultation on their custommer. Did you see any comment or warning or their site telling that the nib was changing?. How many of those receive a kit that don't correspond to what they ordered. Anywhere where their non IAP custummer where warn about anything? <b>They did not care about us nor anyone else</b>. Even the photo on their web site did not show the change and i think that a little "photo is not representative of the kit" is very very easy to put. We are not all their pen business but I think this group is very well representative of the whole penturning community and 87% did not liked it. 100 % of my custommer did not liked it. The worst of all is that many of us just fell like we are bullsh..ted on this whole matter. Good try Eric, but no i don't see any problem with the old nib and it did write dam well. People don't like it period and by the sound of your post, i don't think you really want or <b>CAN</b> bring back the old nib (wich i'm more and more certain). I have never see anyone here complaining about the old nib and as i say we are pretty representative so why (really why) the change?. When you have a busines, appologies and listening is something, care and respect for your cutommers is an other thing. Last post for me on this subject as i'm tired of loosing my time on a sterile discussion, i prefer go in my shop and turn pens,unfortunately with your competitor kits.

Alfred
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Not to be negative but I don't think you can throw out that 87% don't like it and that represents a large portion of the pen turning community. First off even if you wanted to say that all the IAP members are a large representation of turners, that survey you quote only has 77 respondants so far (there are over 3,300 IAP members according to the member list) which means a mind blowing 2% of the IAP members have voted. The 100% of your customers that you asked, how many is that (5, 10, 100, 1,000)? When I say 100% of my customers that would be like a whopping 20 at the moment (just started turning last month). Did you give them an option between the new an old, did you point out the difference, did you possibly influence their comments by showing how you felt about the new kits?

From a business perspective you don't retool a factory or change molds because 77 people aren't pleased. If they fixed the issue with the cartridge sticking eventually this noise will blow over. It would probably cost them more to get rid of the new stock they have purchased than the decreased sales from the members who aren't happy. What would make them change are returns and lower sales, because if they can't move the stock than something will have to give. Every day more and more people are getting into pen turning and they won't even know the difference between the old style and new. I for example have never seen or used the old sytle, but I do like the fact that the new style is thicker on the bottom (based on the catalog picture), makes it easier for me to hold.

You can please some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time. I commend Craft Supply and Eric for even posting on this forum. How many other organizations do that? I know I can't even get a phone call back from PSI. Just my $0.02.
 
I thank Eric for posting once again. I will say this about the Baron pen. I like the nib because it is faceted and I can get a better grip on it because it is what I would consider a small pen. That being said, it is still every skinny to me and more worthy of being a woman's pen. I think it is far from being the perfect nib. I actually like the nib shape on the Gents pens, probably because it is a lot bigger.

What I don't understand about all the hype here is that from the pictures I have seen, the Lotus pen looks more like the &lt;cough&gt; symbol than does the new Jr Gent look. yet I don't see anyone adding that kit into this conversation at all.
 
Sorry, gotta do the annoying engineer thing....

Actually SandKing, any sample in excess of 30 data points is considered statistically sound, regardless of the eventual population size. 77 respondants is good enough for me. The question should be "what is the Confidence Level for the mean of 87%?" So what I think we're missing is the margin of error in the 87% statement. Of course all this assumes we all agree on what the words "like" and "dislike" mean, and the responses all mean the same thing... [:D] But 30 results is all it takes statistically.

As for the rest of you coots.... You know what? I enjoy pen turning. No, I love it. It feels, smells, looks and sounds right to my heart and soul. It is quick reward, artistic yet technical. I can choose to whine about just darn near anything (and sometimes do!), but I exercise my choices when I buy something. If I don't like it, I stop buying it. Enough of us do that and the supplier will not be in business or will change the way they do business. As the customer we are in control. Period.
 
If I remember correctly from my stat classes the sample size could be considered statistically sound, but within that sample size of 30 you would really need a good spread of people/users. A 2% response rate is pretty poor and I would tend to argue that this sample can be skewed. It may very well be that most users of this kit really hate the new nibs, I just think that the margin of error could be large. That being said, I've been wrong before and will be wrong again!!![;)]
 
Hi,

Since i started this, let me get in again. For the statistic purpose, we should not take all IAP user, but assume that 100 % of the poll respondant are using this kit and that 87% of the kits user that respond to the poll did not like it. As for my 100% custummer, i sell between 1000 and 1500 pens a year. Just did a big show here in Montreal, sharing a space with a bowl turner. I had 50 jr gent (old nib) 6 (new nib)in my display. Trafic for the last 4 days before christmas was around 30,000 (215,000 for the 17 days of the show). Sold 37 jr (old nib) sold 0 that's zero (new nib). Everyone ( i estimate close to 1000 that stopped by our boot) that took both in their hand quickly put back the one with the new nib back on the table. This is fact, not statistics. Did not want to go into my personnal business but i just wanted to add some credibility to my post. I know it seem like i'm kind of bashing CSU and mabe i put a little too much on but i'm dam frustrated about them right now and this is the best place to ventilate. Going back to the shop turning bottle stopper, at leat the nib still the same[}:)]

Alfred
 
Gotcha Alfred. Congrats on your success, I applaud the sales. I hope to be as successful as you some day so I can quit the day job!!! Seems like a rough day in the shop beats a good day at work lately. I find myself spending lots of time on this website during working hours [;)] I can't get over the traffic at that show, was there a lot of pen competition? I would say that you're a good sample of the end users and what they may like. It might be a little skewed b/c of how many of the old kits you had, but I would agree that the end user may not like this new style. It also can do with the pen itself (weight, color, wood selection, etc) but you would be the person who would know b/c I'm sure they commented. I hope Eric is paying attention to that as well and not just IAP members unsatisfied with the style.
 
ok, I just did as Eric suggested and tried the new nib just for feel and comfort. I have arthritis in my hands so I use a variety of pen shapes and sizes, depending on how I feel. This was done on an ok feeling day and yes the feel was better on the new nib. I do think that if they can put that feel nto a nib that looks like the old old they would have a true winner that could please more people.
Herper
 
Originally posted by ericatcraft
<br />Frank,

The drill bit issue is not in my hands at the moment. I know that Rex (our resident professional and vice president of the company) is looking into it and the part of my original post regarding the bit is me paraphrasing him; I hope I did not misrepresent his thoughts when I made my post. I know that we try and find the best drill bit for the job and one that we can easily maintain in stock or allow customers to find locally. The 10.5mm bit is one I have heard him talk about but it is hard to find a reliable supply of such and odd size bit... basically I don't know what will happen with the issue but I know that we (the company) are thinking about it. I can't guarantee that we'll change our recommendation but I can guarantee that we will recommend the bit that we truly believe is the best all around fit. Your feedback, and that of others regarding the issue, has been helpful and Rex is aware of the sizes you've all quoted. Hope that helps, sorry I don't have any hard answers for you at this time.
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Eric, thanks again. The below is from a friend who is a master, really a master's-master professional woodworker. I haven't done my tests yet but I suspect my findings will correspond to what is said below.
&lt;&lt;&lt;frank, the guys are correct about being able to get different sized holes from a given bit.....but for such things as pilot holes, clearance holes, dowel holes,ect. in wood it`s not really relevent.....doing a "test" on a woodshop grade drillpress(under 5k) and testing with a set of calipers you`re most likely not going to see a difference in hole diameter.......if you do wait an hour the check again, you`ll get a different reading......if like bruce you`re building rocket ships out of weird alloys then it`ll matter but for joe building cabinets or furniture no&gt;&gt;&gt;
 
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UH OH...


Originally posted by ericatcraft
Thanks to those of you who brought this poll to my attention, I am still new at this and sometimes don't realize there are polls, etc. that require my attention. I am one of the few who actually like the new nib as much as the old nib (I don't really prefer one over the other)- I think that it is much easier to write with.
I have passed your suggestions along to the people here who are in charge of what we sell and make the decisions regarding our pen kits and I will post a thread if I find out anything new. Thanks again.
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SOURCE: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20004&whichpage=2#207324


Originally posted by ericatcraft
<br />Hey everyone,

...Personally I still like the new nib much more than the old. All of the talk here has been about asthetics...
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SOURCE: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20257&whichpage=7#211013

[;)]

I am from the school, if it ain't broke, take it apart and figure out how it has lasted so long, but in this case... I have a hard time believing that this new nib was produced for any reason other than a manufacturer change or machining process change. I have the inkling Something is the supply area of the kit was modified to force the adjustment of the nib.

I am a major fan of the quality of the CSUSA kits. They are very well made and feel substantial. However, I have had way too many problems with mismatched kits, threading issues, and inconsistancy between kits that I am hesitant to make them a sole staple in my line.

Remember the evolution of the Jr's. From the beginning... Baron sized bits and tubes, to larger... New bits and bushings required... numerous complaints about caps that wouldn't thread... new coupler created that fixed the issue... misdrilled nib holes requiring "roadside" maintenance to get the refill to fit. Drill bit sizes in question... Now new nib that looks like a weenie. I ain't never seen no weenie pens in Stylus or similiar. And all this a higher price than that of the competitor...

I just want to make pens with the little free time that I have. I don't want to mess with ordering an item that needs to be modified, altered, sent back, called about, or causes someone to be aroused [:0]

Phew... Glad that's over.

Fangar
 
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