Jr. Gent and Jr. Statesman Concerns

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by Firefyter-emt
<br />BTW.. unless you have mic'd your bits to see if THEY are what you think, it's hard to go off saying that THEY are wrong. Try it sometime, drill holes and measure, and measure your bits too. Mine are from Woodcraft and they are no where near the exact size listed.

I have a wide varitey of bits from an equally wide variety of sources. Many I inherited that are 50-70 years old. This would make an interesting exercise. After the holidays, I will measure a couple of the more widely used sizes. I suspect near zero variation.

 

[DCBluesman]

Randy - I think it's a question worth asking, BUT, I actually think the newest additions to the Berea and CS USA product line have been fairly startard. (Not singling out PSI but I don't have enough experience to comment on them.)The Sedona uses the same tubes, bits and bushings as the Baron. The Sierra Vista uses the same tubes and bits as the Sierra, required only the purchase of a new set of bushings. The Junior's (Gent, Statesman, Emp) all use the same tubes and bits and several share the same bushings.

I agree that the older kits tend to suffer from the problem, but retooling for these styles, particularly when we are clamoring for them to invest in new designs, is probably not a practical matter.

There is a partial solution to this problem and it is not terribly expensive. Harbor Freight has a set of bits that covers most of our needs for metric, SAE and letter bits. The exceptions that cannot be handled with one of these bits can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. I'm just not following the problem with "wierd" bit sizes. After all, most of us tell folks that our pens are "custom" and "one of a kind". Well, it takes some tools to really DO that. In my (never) humble opinion.

 

[woodpens]

I'm glad CSU's customer service department is not made up of IAP members. We'd all be screwed.

I agree that the material can make a difference in the clearance of a hole. For example, using the recommended bit size for the cap of the Havana rollerball pen commonly requires me to ream out the hole some with a round file. However, if the wood is Cocobolo or another rosewood, the tube slips through the hole with no problem. Maybe this is a result of the wood expanding inside the hole after drilling. This problem is seen in a handful of different kits from CSU and Berea.

My preference would be that the manufacturers use a given wood type or material to determine the recommended drill bit size. That way we would know what kind of clearances to expect when we buy a new kit and the recommended bit for it. I realize that I work for an industry with high standards, but this is not rocket science. If you can actually hear the tube rattle inside the barrel when shaken, you have an unacceptable clearance.

 

[redfishsc]

The Jr Gent instruction sheet I just recieved earlier in the month indicated using a 25/64th drill bit (too small). The Catalog indicates a 27/64th. Both are WRONG I don't care what they say.

I drilled several types of woods with that bit and they were all too tight to fit the tube in, so I had to redrill them. I blew up a VERY NICE manzanita root burl. I called them and recommended to them that a Z drill bit, as Randy noted, will do the trick very nicely. They also are replacing the blank with an amboyna.

I had the same problem with the Big Gent--- the instruction sheet had me use to big of a drill bit and I wound up blowing through the blank at the end when turning. That was a while back. I also had a problem with the ONLY TWO GENTS I ordered, one of them was missing parts.

Good customer service, pathetic logistics in the instructions, kit packaging, and consistency. They are trying. I'm sure part of the problem is the fact that the kits are all imports, and we all know that China only makes QUALITY AND CONSISTENT products now don't we?[!]. If we ever wind up going to war against them I hope all their ammo is Grizzly ammo and all our ammo is good ol' MADE IN........ Germany or Japan.


Moral of the story: check all your parts to make sure you got them all before proceeding, make sure the drill they recommend is the right size, and call them and tell them politely but frankly when you find a problem, they will take care of you.

 

[Randy_]

.....There is a partial solution to this problem and it is not terribly expensive. Harbor Freight has a set of bits that covers most of our needs for <b>metric</b>, SAE and letter bits.....

Last time I checked, HF did not sell metric drill bits?? They do sell a 115 bit set for about $80 which, I suspect, is the set Lou is alluding to. That set has fractional bits in 1/64" increments to 1/2", number bits 1-60 and letter bits A-Z. Think you will have to go elsewhere for metric bits.

 

[bradbn4]

One thing I try out on pen kits I have not made before is to use a scrap lumber and test drill - pull out a tube and check the fit.

Also as I drill out each blank - I take a tube - and see how it fits. I don't use CA (I use a poly glue) - so I want a bit loser fit to allow the glue to expand when drying. I have found that doing back to back drilling out different wood - one time of wood would always be tight - while the other had no issues. Same drill bit, same tube. Right now I have the Bill B AS special - picked up the monster can of Norseman drill bits - I also have the HF bit set just encase I needed in a off size.

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />

Originally posted by Mikey
<br />

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />Item #3: There may be disagreement on this issue. But I, for one, disagree with the finding. A hole is a hole is a hole. Like others, I've drilled a bunch of holes in different woods, if I want a certain size hole I use the drill of that size. If the situation is as you (CS) states, why don't we have one or two, or three, different bits reccomended for each kit? Filling an oversize hole with glue is not craftmanship, it is sloppy and unnecessary, or should be. CS needs to revisit this issue. I, for one, am not happy with this deliberate incorrect reccomendation.

I would have to disagee completely with this statement and go with Eric's. There have been many times where I would be making several of the same type of pen at one time in both acrylic, wood, and resin. I have found that the holes even when drilled with the same bit will be of different sizes when you insert the tubes. In fact, i have found that I need to use thick CS when glueing resin tubes for Sierras, (even after painting the tubes and inside of he blank) but can only use a medium or thin when doing blanks like Cocobolo because the tube has little clearance to start with. This is also true with every other pen that I have made in different combinations.

Also as said before me, you are a penmaker and yu should be the one sizing your drill bit to fit the material. CS can give us all a starting point, and that is normally just fine for the person who makes a few pens for fun, but if you are going to sell them or make a living off of them, you should know enough to do some leg work yourself and make notes of what works well in what material.

I have made a total of 3 1/2 non-wood pens so can't speak to sizes varying with synthetics.
I do sell mine but not to the point of making a living, for whatever that is worth or means.
I drill holes for things other than pens. I choose the drill bit size for the size hole I want without regard to the material. Have never had a problem with over/undersize holes in different materials.
Usually, with CS kits, and those from other manufacturers, the drill bit size reccomended is the correct one.
That they reccomend an oversize bit for just one kit then excuse it off with a "different materials" story is simply not right. It is inconsistent with their normal polcies and emerges as hogwash.
What they are doing is casting doubt on all their reccomendations as well as those of all other pen kit and tool suppliers. As it stands now, with their highly debatable reccomendation, when starting with a new kit, we must now buy a kit, or several, measure the tube then make a drill bit size choice before making pens. A beginner does not know this and gets stuck with oversize holes that need to be glopped up with glue and, perhaps, unsatisfactory results.
I belive that a test would be interesting. Choose a drill bit, almost any size used for pens, and drill into a variety of materials and woods then measure very carefully the ID. I suspect the differences would be so infinitesimal as to be near zero. In fact, CS, as the supplier, should do this before reccomending a bit size if they had such a concern.
BTW, I'm not happy with them about this issue but I still am a fan of the company in general and will continue to do business with them. Including buying kits of the style under discussion.

Gee Frank,

I see you've done your research again.

Here is a little quote from Precision Twist Drill.

(By the way folks, they make drills and I would bet they speak with much more authority that Frank does)

{quote}

Drills will normally cut a hole larger in diameter than the drill itself.The amount depends upon the rigidity of the equipment, stiffness of the drill, accuracy of the point, the material being drilled, and many other contributing factors. However, averaging all factors, the charge below shows what might be expected with standard drills without guide bushings in steel or cast iron using good drilling practices and reasonable care in the resharpening of the drills.

Drills as received from our factory will usually drill hole sizes between the minimum and mean lines. Reconditioned drills, however, may produce hole sizes between the minimum and maximum lines depending upon drill wear, margin pick-up, and accuracy of resharpening. {end quote}

http://www.precisiontwistdrill.com/techhelp/help_pages/diameter_of_drills.asp

There is a nice little chart at the bottom that gives you a rough ides of what to expect but it has been said that wood WILL drill differently; just as steel and aluminum drill differently.

Drill bits are mass produced and even though quality control is tight there is rarely two bits produced side by side that will drill the exact same hole diameter. That's why tolerances were introduced.

 

[Randy_]

Very interesting link, Scott!! Thanks.

I found this particular comment very germane to the discussion:

It must be remembered that a twist drill is a roughing tool that may be expected to drill slightly oversize and that some variations in the size of the tapping holes are almost inevitable. When a closer control of the hole size is required it must be reamed. Reaming is recommended for the larger thread diameters and for some fine pitch threads.

Also noted that for bits in the size range we use for pens, the mean of the oversized holes is 6.5-8 thousandths. (I assume those figures are for steel or some other matal and can't be sure they apply to wood?) That is a pretty large difference in light of the fact most drill bit recommendations are already about 0.01" over the tube diameter.

Just for grins, I visited the shop and measured up a few of my most commonly used pencrafting drill bits.....not cheap Wal-Mart or HF bits, BTW. I don't know what size holes they produce; but I can tell you the bits all measured 2-3 thousandths under their stated sizes.

Guess what I am beginning to realize is the drill bits I assumed were highly accurate and precise tools, really aren't!![:0][:0]

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by Randy_
<br />
Guess what I am beginning to realize is the drill bits I assumed were highly accurate and precise tools, really aren't!![:0][:0]

A machinist will tell you that if you need an accurate hole it is either reamed or bored.

 

[gerryr]

I never look at the instructions for recommended bit size. I measure the tube with calipers and select a drill bit that's as close to being .005" larger as I have. Why does everyone get so upset about recommended bit size when it's easy to measure the tube?

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I never look at the instructions for recommended bit size. I measure the tube with calipers and select a drill bit that's as close to being .005" larger as I have. Why does everyone get so upset about recommended bit size when it's easy to measure the tube?

Gerry, good philosophy that, in light of this entire thread, I am adopting.

But to answer your question as to why our underwear is all in a wad over the issue is that most rookies, like myself only being a pen maker for a year or two, will order a specific pen kit, which invariably has some odd-freakin drill bit size, and then order that drill bit(s) the same time. Ie, it's a way for the mfrs. to make more cash. I personally think this is part of the reason why they make kits that use such freakish sizes--- so those without large drill collections or are plum lazy[:I] will just order their bit along with the kit. And then end mill sizes, specific mandrel sizes, yadda stinkin' yadda.


Mind you, I did buy the HF 115 bit kit which will suite pretty much EVERY pen kit out there that uses a bit under 1/2".

And again, I will be adopting your practice of just measuring the tubes and using whatever bit looks right--- thanks for the .005" suggestion.

 

[woodpens]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I never look at the instructions for recommended bit size. I measure the tube with calipers and select a drill bit that's as close to being .005" larger as I have. Why does everyone get so upset about recommended bit size when it's easy to measure the tube?

Maybe it is because not all of us are retired or have unlimited time on our hands. If I order a new style of kit and go to the expense of adding the recommeneded accessories (bushings and bits) from the manufacturer, I am of the belief that I should be able to go to the shop that evening after work and make a pen. If I drill the hole and the tube is significantly smaller than the hole or won't even fit into it, I'm not a happy customer. Then, if I look at my 120+ different sized bits (1/2" and smaller) and find that the needed size is something like 10.6 mm, I am more than unhappy. This isn't rocket science, guys! It is simple quality control.

 

[gerryr]

I am neither retired nor do I have unlimited time available. I only measure the tubes for any given kit once and I write it on a chart by my drill press. The amount of time it takes to measure the tubes once is microscopic in the long run.

 

[woodpens]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I am neither retired nor do I have unlimited time available. I only measure the tubes for any given kit once and I write it on a chart by my drill press. The amount of time it takes to measure the tubes once is microscopic in the long run.

I agree that it takes no time to measure the tubes. The time I am referring to is from the time I have the kits in hand till I am able to actually start making that kit. Do you REALLY think that the manufacturers should not be accurate in their recommendation abd the bit they include in their accessories kits?

 

[gerryr]

I'm not saying they shouldn't be accurate, I just don't pay any attention to their recommendations.

 

[Trapshooter]

Originally posted by Randy_
<br />

.....There is a partial solution to this problem and it is not terribly expensive. Harbor Freight has a set of bits that covers most of our needs for <b>metric</b>, SAE and letter bits.....

Last time I checked, HF did not sell metric drill bits?? They do sell a 115 bit set for about $80 which, I suspect, is the set Lou is alluding to. That set has fractional bits in 1/64" increments to 1/2", number bits 1-60 and letter bits A-Z. Think you will have to go elsewhere for metric bits.

/
/
Santa may bring this to me[]http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=528

 

[woodpens]

It is a great drill bit set to have.

 

[redfishsc]

You don't necessarily need a metric drill bit set if you have the 115 bit set, there should be one in there that will work for you.


I follow Russ Fairfield's advice on drilling and glueing--- I use urethane glue since it expands. I do not think it's as strong as CA or epoxy but a bit better at gap filling and "centering" a blank in a slightly oversized hole. I haven't found a kit yet that I couldn't use a letter drill bit or a 64th fractional and work just fine.

 

[Monty]

I've been following this thread closely but one thing I haven't seen yet is just how much oversized the hole should be from the tube to give maximum holding power for the glue. Now I know it can vary depending on which type of glue you use, but in MHO, if the tube and hole are too close to the same, then the glue would be wiped off the tube when inserting the tube and this would lead to inadiquate bonding leading to blowout.

Also as several have stated, I have started miking my tubes and selecting a bit just oversized to use. Yes, it takes time, maybe a minute or two, but I normally do my glueups in groups of the same style pen at one time.

Someone also mentioned looking for a set of metric bits. I just got a set of these brad points for around $15. http://www.alloutind.com/ Look under liquidation for the 25 piece metric bradpoint set or what looks like the same set here http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/drlbrad.html
The only diference I can see is one includes shiopping and one doesn't

 

[bradbn4]

Originally posted by les-smith
<br />

Originally posted by bradbn4
<br />I jumped in on the group order - picked up 24 pens + extra bushings, bunches of tubes so I could go whole hog. I guess that money could have better spent on buying more Baron pen kits when they were on sale.

Hey bradbn4, are you planning on sending them back. I'm kind of in the same boat. And, as it stands now, I think I'm going to send them back and go with the Baron.

Based on the high res photo's I have seen - I hate to say it - I will have to return it. Not sure what if anything I will get in it's place. I have heard rumblings - but no hard facts that other pens that they sell will have the new tip.

Given a choice - I would love the old style; not sure if I want to try to find anyone who is willing to trade - - right now there is no pens that I like in the price / point / plating / style - with a photo of the tip that craft supplies http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/catalog/pen_kits.html
sells.

What I would like for what is worth - that the pen style for RB - show that pen style in a RB tip. And to be picky - I would also like to see a photo of the plating to match the the tip. A group photo is fine - but each platting should be ID - I guess I can figure out the difference between a RB & FP - but it might be hard to figure out between RB & ball point.

I can handle my simple drill size selection - put the tube in the index for my drill bits - test drill - - and find a drill size that will work with the tube & wood.

 

[herper62]

could someone please post a pic of the new, old and Baron styles? I am a newbie of 6 months, so this would help in my post holiday purchasing. also I worked in a precision sheet metal shop that did helicper,medical high end audio etc. ya want an accurate hole indifferent materials, and thicknesses, us the mentioned equipment, fixtures etc and use a reamer. also clamp down whatever you use to hold your blank.
Herper

 

[LanceD]

Originally posted by herper62
<br />could someone please post a pic of the new, old and Baron styles? I am a newbie of 6 months, so this would help in my post holiday purchasing. also I worked in a precision sheet metal shop that did helicper,medical high end audio etc. ya want an accurate hole indifferent materials, and thicknesses, us the mentioned equipment, fixtures etc and use a reamer. also clamp down whatever you use to hold your blank.
Herper

It's the Jr Gent and Jr Statesman kits that has the issues about the nib design, not the Baron. Click on the link below and scroll down to the bottom of the page for a couple of pics of the old and new nibs.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20004

 

[airrat]

What I would like for what is worth - that the pen style for RB - show that pen style in a RB tip. And to be picky - I would also like to see a photo of the plating to match the the tip. A group photo is fine - but each platting should be ID - I guess I can figure out the difference between a RB & FP - but it might be hard to figure out between RB & ball point.

Brad are you referring to CSUSA's web site here. When you click on a RB pen and the picture shows a FP, actually under emperor its one picture for everything listed. If so yeah that bothers me too. They are making enough money to post actual pictures for each kit. If I want to see what a Emperor RB looks like I should be able to click on the link from their site and not get a picture of a rollerball. Makes me wonder if their web designer really cares about proper representation.

 

[Randy_]

As I mentioned earlier, I spoke to Eric about this problem and he tells me that they are in the process of correcting this situation. Folks are going to have to be a little patient, however. You don't take a bunch of new pictures and get them on the web site and in the catalog over night.[^]

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by Randy_
<br />As I mentioned earlier, I spoke to Eric about this problem and he tells me that they are in the process of correcting this situation. Folks are going to have to be a little patient, however. You don't take a bunch of new pictures and get them on the web site and in the catalog over night.[^]

Why not???

If your bread & butter is catalog sales, CHANGE the catalog to represent your ACTUAL product!!!

In this case, "overnight" can be measured in MONTHS. What unit of measurement is REASONABLE????

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I never look at the instructions for recommended bit size. I measure the tube with calipers and select a drill bit that's as close to being .005" larger as I have. Why does everyone get so upset about recommended bit size when it's easy to measure the tube?

That is obviously the only safe and correct way to do things, pen wise. The downside is that most folks order what the company reccomends then suffers with the problems of ill fitting tubes. Not everyone, especially beginners, have large sets of drill bits. And if they do, those are probably fractional sized not metric. For a hobby or avocation, one should not have to go through such gymnastics to just get started.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I'm not saying they shouldn't be accurate, I just don't pay any attention to their recommendations.

At risk of repeating.....that is what it has come to. The manufacturers reccomendations may not be reliable.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by Randy_
<br />As I mentioned earlier, I spoke to Eric about this problem and he tells me that they are in the process of correcting this situation. Folks are going to have to be a little patient, however. You don't take a bunch of new pictures and get them on the web site and in the catalog over night.[^]

Correcting which situation? Will they be re-reccomending drill bit sizes?

 

[airrat]

I agree with Ed, Randy. They knew they were changing the nibs, why didnt they prepare? Eric?

 

[Rifleman1776]

I posed the issue of differences in hole sizes when drilled in different materials on another forum. Several responses came back but a few were right on target with our issue here. Two agreed that there is a variance. But, make that <b></b>BUT <b></b> both independantly stated the variance was very tiny. Each said the same thing. When measured to the fifth decimal point (e.g. .00001)[hundreth thousandths) the variance from extreme materials was half of that last figure. (e.g. .000015), not enough to worry about for our purposes and frequently not enough for many machining operations. As to variances in drill bits, others stated that if there were variances they would create oversize holes rather than undersize. Same was true going from machine to machine with the same bit. Oversize was more of a problem than undersize.
An earlier post said something about varying sizes of drill bits from one manufacturer. While it might be possible, it is unlikely. The rods for bits are drawn, or forced, through a sizing hole while in a near-molten state. The rod would be consistently sized.

 

[Ligget]

I still cannot believe the changed the nib without telling anyone, all they had to do was post a picture of the suggested new nib on the IAP (in one of Erics posts) to measure response.[V]

 

[gerryr]

Originally posted by ligget
<br />I still cannot believe the changed the nib without telling anyone, all they had to do was post a picture of the suggested new nib on the IAP (in one of Erics posts) to measure response.[V]

Unfortunately, I can understand it. After all, where else are we going to buy the kits that use that monstrosity? At least we have the Baron as an alternative to the Jr. Gentleman, but we have no alternative for the Jr. Statesman or Jr. Emperor. The whole business sends a message about just how important we are to them.

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />

Originally posted by ligget
<br />I still cannot believe the changed the nib without telling anyone, all they had to do was post a picture of the suggested new nib on the IAP (in one of Erics posts) to measure response.[V]

Unfortunately, I can understand it. After all, where else are we going to buy the kits that use that monstrosity? At least we have the Baron as an alternative to the Jr. Gentleman, but we have no alternative for the Jr. Statesman or Jr. Emperor. The whole business sends a message about just how important we are to them.

I believe you are getting the picture!!!

 

[jodoidg]

Disgusted, frustrated, how could they? I hate the new nib! A lot of market research went into this bonehead decision. Why it cost a small fortune to poll people and determine that 85% don’t like it! They clearly don’t care about our opinion. I have never turned a Barron because I didn’t like the nib, but I like it a lot more now. CS can fix this problem by bringing back the old nib style, heck Coke did. Until then I agree with the others, I will buy no more. As a business this is the only message they will hear $$$. Remember the customer is always right. Wll it's time to go to AS and scope out some Barrons.

John

I wonder if BB picked out this new style for CS??? He’s got to be loving this [:0]!

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />I posed the issue of differences in hole sizes when drilled in different materials on another forum. Several responses came back but a few were right on target with our issue here. Two agreed that there is a variance. But, make that <b></b>BUT <b></b> both independantly stated the variance was very tiny. Each said the same thing. When measured to the fifth decimal point (e.g. .00001)[hundreth thousandths) the variance from extreme materials was half of that last figure. (e.g. .000015), not enough to worry about for our purposes and frequently not enough for many machining operations. As to variances in drill bits, others stated that if there were variances they would create oversize holes rather than undersize. Same was true going from machine to machine with the same bit. Oversize was more of a problem than undersize.
An earlier post said something about varying sizes of drill bits from one manufacturer. While it might be possible, it is unlikely. The rods for bits are drawn, or forced, through a sizing hole while in a near-molten state. The rod would be consistently sized.

I see that Frank has done his research again.

A 1/64" bit is .0156
A .4mm bit is .0157
A #78 drill is .016
A #77 bit is .018
A .5mm bit is .0197 and
A #76 bit is .020

Are you really going to try to tell me that they have a sizing die for each bit?

http://www.king-tool.com/drills.htm

A quote from their page:

"Drill blank production
M2 High Speed Steel wire received on spools is
processed at a critical atmospheric controlled
temperature for straightening and hardening.
The wire is then cut to stock lengths and drawn
for several hours. Draw temperature and time
differentials will produce specified hardness
and temper characteristics. After being drawn,
the stock lengths are cut down into rough drill
blanks. Centerless equipment is used to grind
the rough drill blanks down to a specified
diameter, and RMS surface finish. The normal
tolerance on the outside diameter is +0/-.0002
after this production phase."

BTW;

some of the less expensive bits that come from China and Taiwan are manufactured by a rolling process similar to thread rolling.

 

[arioux]

Hi,

There is a CSU open group buy going on. I wonder how many of those disgiusting nibs pens will be ordered. Maybe they will understand. The one thing i'm afraid of (and this is just my how opinion, don't go overboard),is that CSU don't really design theit kits. I'm more an more convince that they just buy kits from a Taiwan or China manufacturer and resells them. They are now stuck with this change and can't do sweet nothing about it unless they convince the manugfacturer to change it. Also due to the fact that many other models got the same nib, i see it as an effort to reduce produciton cost by normalizing the nibs. That is the only explanation i can come with, due to their attitude of modifiyng their catalog, without even mentionning a serious effort about getting back the old nib..

 

[Rifleman1776]

Rather than string out a bunch of quotes, I'll just reply.
Mudder: My research is only beginning. I hope to post some meaningful findings later. What I posted is good information but it was second hand.
As to drawing, I once saw one of those shows on TV about how things are made and got my 'drawing' information from that. I do believe, however, that centerless grinding would be much more accurate.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Airoux, when Nils was still the contact here for CS, I believe he once said that the kits are designed by their own people. In fact he complimented them for all the thought that went into the efforts. He explained that "weirdo" drill bit sizes came about from consideration to feel in hand, balance, appearance, etc. When the pen design was completed, the drill bit size they ended up with was the result of those considerations. Nils, is a nice guy, but I think some one fed him a bunch of hooey on that issue. The companies like to sell extras and weirdo drill bit sizes are profitable extras.

 

[DocStram]

You talk with your wallet. I'll be purchasing Barons. Maybe, one day, CSUSA will finally get it.

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />Rather than string out a bunch of quotes, I'll just reply.
Mudder: My research is only beginning. I hope to post some meaningful findings later. What I posted is good information but it was second hand.
As to drawing, I once saw one of those shows on TV about how things are made and got my 'drawing' information from that. I do believe, however, that centerless grinding would be much more accurate.

I would hope that a person with the literary background that you want us to believe you have would have at least checked his facts.

I hope you can post some meaningful findings too.[B)]