Inclusivity

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Well, we certainly came out of the woodwork on this concept..I enjoyed hearing all the thoughts and responses..Culture, religion, gender, country...make us all think as we do..some here agreed that if a person is offended by a term, that it's easy to use another one(I would not tell a native american person that it's OK to call a football team the chiefs..they tell me it's offensive, I listen ) Now I'm gonna guess here..a few women may have responded to the post, but by their avatar you will never know..others who do tell you they are women may not comment as they don't give a rats ass or they do care, but don't want to upset the apple cart. I truly do thank all of you for your thoughtful comments..It has been enlightening
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
I'm crashing your thread.

I've never taken offense at any of the GUYS comments... I'll happily state the obvious: woodworking is more popular with the MEN, but I'm happy to see lots of women on this forum, as I embark on this new hobby. Up until recently, I've been the "assistant" while my husband does flatwork, but I really enjoy turning, and got him hooked too!

just keep it clean, and overall "nice", and I won't have any problems with the forum. :biggrin: I've received a LOT of help here, and don't see what the big deal is.

Geesh ladies.

Darci
 
Mickr, maybe you can chip in with a little more info. Is it just the language used on this forum that makes these women feel left out? It seems to me that the problem must be something other then the fact that people say "hey guys" and that you were just using that as one example. Is there more to it?
Yes, thank you for asking & for your perceptiveness..I may have to ask the women who left the forum for anything personal that I could then relate..I think it would be safe to speak in generalities The forum is obviously a space that has more men than women..that's probably a safe statement..Men's views of what is an appropriate shape, design, color..etc are freely shown and discussed and given the thumbs up..When a person deviates from that accepted norm (and it usually is a newbie woman who makes shapes and beads -how not to sound sexist here!!yikes) 10 people will comment..7 or so will say great first, or great pen...keep sending in the pics...one will say that the pen should be turned BtoB and the last two will say, like the color and they hate the shape, we here turn them BtoB Here's what women tell me: those last 3 comments are hurtful and dismissive..they stuck their necks out and got shot down..And it's not just women..the fella I talked about who left the forum did an experiment..he came on once with a pen that had shape and lovely classic design and posted under a male avatar...he then posted another pen almost like it under a "womans" avatar The responses were very telling..He got semi-positive responses, and the woman's avatar got many comments about the shape and how it could be better done... My hope with this post was to have a discussion..to learn from one another and to help make this a welcoming and positive place for all people to feel comfortable about showing their work..
 
I've never taken offense at any of the GUYS comments... I'll happily state the obvious: woodworking is more popular with the MEN, but I'm happy to see lots of women on this forum, as I embark on this new hobby. Up until recently, I've been the "assistant" while my husband does flatwork, but I really enjoy turning, and got him hooked too!

just keep it clean, and overall "nice", and I won't have any problems with the forum. :biggrin: I've received a LOT of help here, and don't see what the big deal is.

Geesh ladies.

Darci
I am happy you are happy with the forum and that you enjoy woodworking...live long & prosper!
 
At some point in this thread, someone mentioned a sexual harassment video that they had to watch each year. We have a similar video at my job, and basically what it boils down to is, "If you say or do something, and someone dislikes it, then you are harassing that person, regardless of what your intentions are." This is an extreme reaction to a society that thrives on litigation for wrongs, both real and imagined, in my opinion (and my wife works for a law firm, so I hear a lot of things like this).

Now, for my own opinions (which are worth about what you're paying for them. :biggrin:):


  1. You are not responsible for my interpretation of your words or actions, I am.
  2. I am not responsible for your interpretation of my words or actions, you are.
  3. I can not control what you say or think, and it would be a much sadder, much darker world, if I (or anyone) could. I can only control my response, if any to what you say.
  4. It is not my job to make your life "better" or to ride herd on your feelings and emotional state. They're your feelings and emotions, ergo that's your job.
  5. If a person is in such sad shape that they feel they must take offense at the words of others, or if they feel that their life is so empty that they must stir up trouble for other folks, either by being ugly or by gossip or by meddling, then they probably should seek professional help,
  6. Vanilla ice cream is much better than chocolate ice cream.
  7. Life is too short to eat bad food.
  8. People who name their clothes are weird.
  9. Everybody should look in the mirror at least once a day and think about how funny you'd look with antlers, a red nose, clown shoes and a scuba tank on.
(that last was in a plea for everyone to stop taking themselves so seriously, guys.)

There, I think that's all I have to say about that. :biggrin:
 
Last edited:
Oh my, this is getting out of hand.

I think the original poster was just saying that we should think about the connotations of our words, and strive to use the proper forms...There's nothing wrong with trying to use the proper form of address (but then again, I'm an English teacher)

I tend to agree, being a firm proponent of proper English, that we should strive for better language skills. I also agree that this has nothing to do with turning pens.

Many of us use words that aren't correct - a'int comes to mind. I don't use 'a'int', and I won't use 'guys' if I can help it, as it's not a proper form of address in mixed company. Your choice of words is your own business...
 
Yes, thank you for asking & for your perceptiveness..I may have to ask the women who left the forum for anything personal that I could then relate..I think it would be safe to speak in generalities The forum is obviously a space that has more men than women..that's probably a safe statement..Men's views of what is an appropriate shape, design, color..etc are freely shown and discussed and given the thumbs up..When a person deviates from that accepted norm (and it usually is a newbie woman who makes shapes and beads -how not to sound sexist here!!yikes) 10 people will comment..7 or so will say great first, or great pen...keep sending in the pics...one will say that the pen should be turned BtoB and the last two will say, like the color and they hate the shape, we here turn them BtoB Here's what women tell me: those last 3 comments are hurtful and dismissive..they stuck their necks out and got shot down..And it's not just women..the fella I talked about who left the forum did an experiment..he came on once with a pen that had shape and lovely classic design and posted under a male avatar...he then posted another pen almost like it under a "womans" avatar The responses were very telling..He got semi-positive responses, and the woman's avatar got many comments about the shape and how it could be better done... My hope with this post was to have a discussion..to learn from one another and to help make this a welcoming and positive place for all people to feel comfortable about showing their work..

I'm going to have call his experiment BS, simply for the fact that to be valid it would have had to be the same pen. I pay no attention to avatars period, and I will tell someone what I think of their pen regardless of who makes it. I often don't look at who posted what, just comment on the pen itself. I hit the new posts button and read almost every single one, based on the title, not the poster. There are certain posters I won't read, but that's just because I consider it a waste of my time to read that specific individuals posts, but again it has nothing to do with gender. Of all the issues this forum has, this has not and I hope to god will never be one.

I'm really starting to get annoyed with this conversation overall. It's not like we're here saying "Nice try honey, but why don't you go back into the kitchen and make some dinner while the men do the real woodwork"

Out of all the woodworking forums I visit this one is the least sexist out of all of them. Usually it's the guys cracking jokes on each other, but I've never ever seen one man be condecending to a woman(even their wives!)
 
Oh my, this is getting out of hand.

I think the original poster was just saying that we should think about the connotations of our words, and strive to use the proper forms...There's nothing wrong with trying to use the proper form of address (but then again, I'm an English teacher)

I tend to agree, being a firm proponent of proper English, that we should strive for better language skills. I also agree that this has nothing to do with turning pens.

Many of us use words that aren't correct - a'int comes to mind. I don't use 'a'int', and I won't use 'guys' if I can help it, as it's not a proper form of address in mixed company. Your choice of words is your own business...

Yeah, and while we are at it, what's up with the spelling and grammar? Sometimes I have to read stuff twice to understand the meaning, especially when periods are dropped off. But you know, I always push through it, figure it out, and move on...it's just not really that important in the big scheme of things! I am much more interested in the discussion content than I am in how it is being communicated, or who it is being communicated by.
 
The internet is dangerous for women..most hide the fact..many use diffent names in phone books..anywhere predators roam, women have to be more careful

Wow, I guess I will have to keep my wife off the internet, not let her go out in public, or talk on the telephone. Maybe I will just lock her in the closet so she is completely safe.
 
As a female woodworker, i don't take offense to the term 'guys'. I agree it is generic and all inclusive and my daughters answer to it as well. I did form carpentry for many years and am now in Security. Construction and woodworking are predominantly male fields, although the number of women participating is growing. I think it gives both genders more commonality. I personally think it is silly to knitpick over something not said as an intentional 'slam' to anyone. I like coming to this forum and reading and learning more about the craft of woodturning generally and pen turning inparticular. The friendships show through the posts and i enjoy being a member here.

Just my 2 cents worth :)

Jennifer
 
At some point in this thread, someone mentioned a sexual harassment video that they had to watch each year. We have a similar video at my job, and basically what it boils down to is, "If you say or do something, and someone dislikes it, then you are harassing that person, regardless of what your intentions are." This is an extreme reaction to a society that thrives on litigation for wrongs, both real and imagined, in my opinion (and my wife works for a law firm, so I hear a lot of things like this).

Now, for my own opinions (which are worth about what you're paying for them. :biggrin:):


  1. You are not responsible for my interpretation of your words or actions, I am.
  2. I am not responsible for your interpretation of my words or actions, you are.
  3. I can not control what you say or think, and it would be a much sadder, much darker world, if I (or anyone) could. I can only control my response, if any to what you say.
  4. It is not my job to make your life "better" or to ride herd on your feelings and emotional state. They're your feelings and emotions, ergo that's your job.
  5. If a person is in such sad shape that they feel they must take offense at the words of others, or if they feel that their life is so empty that they must stir up trouble for other folks, either by being ugly or by gossip or by meddling, then they probably should seek professional help,
  6. Vanilla ice cream is much better than chocolate ice cream.
  7. Life is too short to eat bad food.
  8. People who name their clothes are weird.
  9. Everybody should look in the mirror at least once a day and think about how funny you'd look with antlers, a red nose, clown shoes and a scuba tank on.
(that last was in a plea for everyone to stop taking themselves so seriously, guys.)

There, I think that's all I have to say about that. :biggrin:
I take offense on #6. Chocolate ice cream is better. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
50 posts on this topic???? All about the same thing. Over a few naggy ppl reading way too much into a "term"
You" guys" should just be happy and go turn some wood. Were all here for the same thing turning. Thats it.
This isn't a feminist activists group.

We turn pens who cares what you are male, female, both. Not quite sure yet? Let me see your work that's why I am here. Take the politics elsewhere and smile.
 
This is silly! I think some are making way too much out of this as far as I'm concerned!
While I don't often agree with George, I think this is actually beyond silly, and bordering on ridiculous.
And Stan perhaps you should hide the fact that your wife is also a woman/lady/female, possibly get her a Burkah or Chadri, for her safety for the times you allow her out in public.
No never mind women are the only ones that wear them any way, so it wouldn't fool any threatening persons, better just lock her in a closet for her safety.
I guess we should all begin our posts with Justin's Idea with something like Hello Humans, or how about Hi Guys and Dolls, Naw that's definitely getting into PC country.
In my short two years here I've seen a lot of bandwidth taken up by some strange and useless stuff, but I think this just about hast to be the craziest waste of bandwidth I've encountered. Just my humble opinion but then I'm a Guy!!!! I call my son in law and daughter guys, I call the girls and adult females my wife works with guys, I addressed all of my students including the 4 young females as guys . I guess I'm in trouble with the PC Police Guys!
 
I take offense on #6. Chocolate ice cream is better. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Well, you know what they say, ignorance is bliss. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Actually, my most favorite vanilla flavor is HEB 1905 Vanilla, with fresh ground nutmeg on it. YUMMMMMMMMM!!!!

Second is Poteet strawberry. Man (oops, I mean human), that stuff is so rich it'll put you in a higher tax bracket. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
I have yet to see one female post to this conversation, at least not one I can identify. (Golly! Does this mean that Mickr is right?) I for one would like to hear from the female members of IAP. What do you think? Are men being insensitive by considering you one of the, "Guys"? Does the language on the forum make you feel excluded or discourage you from contributing? What do you Gals think?

Sorry Mick (OP) and Mike, while we may need to be more sensitive and reactive to certain things, I don't believe that this is one of them.

Personally, I don't consider the term "guys" to be demeaning or an affront, but rather one of acceptance...And this is a group that I am pleased as punch to be accepted into!:cool:

Uh guys...I am accepted right? :confused::rolleyes::redface:
 
Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say: Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc ., hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.
 
Cool!

Hmm... Does that make me the sample or the control?:biggrin:

Hey guys, who stole the ice cream scoop?
 
Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say: Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc ., hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.

So was any of this supposed to be taken seriously or was this just to get reactions for your class? Now I'm uber confused!!!
 
Sorry Mick (OP) and Mike, while we may need to be more sensitive and reactive to certain things, I don't believe that this is one of them.

Personally, I don't consider the term "guys" to be demeaning or an affront, but rather one of acceptance...And this is a group that I am pleased as punch to be accepted into!:cool:

Uh guys...I am accepted right? :confused::rolleyes::redface:

Well... only because you own an exotic website!!!! :smile-big:
 
I do hope the guys in your class appreciate your efforts.

(Oh, and the ladies, girls, gals, women and dudettes, also!!)
 
Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say: Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc ., hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.


I can help, somewhat. There were 20 people who posted in decided disagreement with you -- including all three of the females who responded. There were 4 who posted opinions that were neutral as far as I could tell. There was either 1 or 2 who posted in general agreement with you -- one of them I couldn't tell for sure. There were many who posted things that I could not interpret as pro/con.

I can't help but scoff at the notion that this was an experiment for a class in light of the fact that you have made roughly the same post now four times as discussed in this thread which is where this all really started: http://www.penturners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=56371&page=2.

I've been hassling you all day and will stop now.

You guys have a good day!
 
Was this serious or tongue in cheek?? I hope that over the top political correctness has not infected my favorite web site....life is too short to waste on such trivial matters.
 
Since we all helped with the "experiment" and preparing for your college class, does that mean we get paid?

I'll take mine in blanks if so. Preferably some sort of incredible burl.

Thanks,
 
Does a hermaphrodite find the term "guys" offensive you should ask your class and see. I only ask because they have a right to an opinion too. ;)
 
I sure hope you are not saying you manipulated this whole discussion so we could unknowingly help you with your homework. I sure hope that is not what you are saying!
 
Wow - this is an amazing post.
I use the term guys all the time to be inclusive of men and women in a group.
I sure hope I havn't been offending my customers all these years. I rely on my interaction with men and women to earn a living in outside sales.

My wife believes that guys is a fine term to use for a group and takes no offense.
So I guess I'm ok - since I don't believe I've lost any sales for using the word guys in mixed company.

I will continue to use the term guys and if I offend anyone on this forum I hope they will forgive me. By the way I appreciate women that have replied to my posts and helped me out. I use the information that they give in there posts and appreciate it.
 
Just one of the guys...

As a woman on here I can't say that I've EVER found anyone offensive on here. That said I've been a welder since I was 15, worked in a factory since I was 18 as a welder of Bradley tanks, been a bartender at a cheap hole in the wall bar, and pretty much done what I wanted when I wanted and took pride when I was considered just one of the "guys". I think of it as a term of acceptance not a way to single out men over women. Most everything I've ever done has been something that was dominated by men and yes sometimes I had to work two or three times harder and have my work be much much better to get the same recognition as some male counter parts I must say that those instances could be counted on two fingers. I have found this forum to be nothing but positive, with everyone I've spoken to giving wonderful feedback and helpful nudges. Honestly some times I think the women who complain the most about being singled out and not a part of the group are that way because they don't MAKE themselves part of the group. You can either want to be treated differently or not but you can't have it both ways. I'm sure I'm probably making several feminists angry but darnit it makes my life hard when every guy I work with at first is nervous to speak because they don't know if I'm the type that takes every little statement and analyzes it for secret meanings. Come on people!
 
Last edited:
Great statement Elizabethsdrinkard, couldn't agree more. Now how about we leave this here and go learn how to make better pens or convince ourselves we need another tool or more blanks, etc., which is why I hope most of us are here!
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
Thanks all for the over 60 responses..the silly, the thoughtful, the funny...I have taken the day to try to get them in order by category...Those who would say: Ok it's just as easy to type Folks as Guys..I'll do that Then the ones who said Guys is inclusive..and so on & so on I am taking this to my college course this evening . The class is about language and how men , women, native, etc ., hear it and how they perceive it...My contribution will be the responses from a penmaking forum from people who were able to answer over a 6 hr period...Thank you again for helping me with my continuing education in my old age. It has been eye opening and informative.

Be certain to tell your professor that you conducted research involving humans without gaining the consent of the participants. While you're at it, give the president of your university a heads up that IAP members will be filing a class action suit. Looks to me like we won't be needing to do a fund raiser for a very long time.
 
Back
Top Bottom