Inclusivity

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mickr

mickr

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Because I have tried with humor to get across the point that women "feel" they are not included in this forum,and the gentle nudging is not working, I wish to use this conversation section to talk about it HEAD ON...I have talked on the phone & in person with 4 women & 1 man who used to frequent this forum...they no longer do so as they felt not included or badly for the women who do frequent it. They have told me of their experience, and I listened..As an example of language: we no longer use MANKIND..we use HUMANKIND...When women tell me GUYS is not inclusive ..I Listen... Do we not wish to make the membersghip of IAP grow? Do we not want new ideas? The PR Princess to make us gorgeous colored PR? I admire the women whose avatars suggest they are women, or who sign their name at the bottom of their post..you are courageous in a medium that is dangerous for women..None of us can know to whom we are speaking on this forum...Let's start our posts with inclusivity Hey Everyone..or hey forum friends..anything that makes us all feel as you do when you get good comments on your pens..feels great doesn't it? To feel included as a penmaker? A new bowl turner? Let's all grow and learn and become better turners through ideas from this forum
 
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Sorry, but if someone takes offense at being labeled in a group when someone says "guys" then I don't want them here.

It's not insulting or derrogitory, it's just a generalization. To me your all androgenous.

I don't care whether your male, female, both, or neither or for that matter, black white, purple or transparent...it has no effect one way or the other on this forum or the pen you can turn out.

Get over it and get back to turning pens or don't post on the forums like some have chosen.

Just my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you've paid for it.
 
I have to agree with Justin. I've always been annoyed by the "guys" generalization and those who feel it is "sexist". Come on! Really?!?
 
As I showed you with the definition in the other post, it is an all inclusive word that can be used for just men or for all sexes. It is not an incorrect usage to use guys to mean all sexes according to the dictionary. You seem to have a problem with the word and that is your right but I really don't think you have to right to correct other people since it is a correct usage. My wife uses guys all the time to refer to men and women. When I lived in New Jersey they said "you'se guys" all the time. I really doubt that it is driving people away from this forum because someone says guys. Personally I think it is stuff like this that drives people away. Just my opinion.
 
Well, if it doesn't matter, let's say 'hey Girls' to everyone instead...equally "inclusive" and the same connotations...and equally insulting to the opposite sex.

I know I wouldn't like that - and I really don't think that you two would either. In the same way, girls don't like to be labelled as guys...

While it may not drive people away, it's a good thing to think about. I'm going to personally try to avoid using 'guys', and use more gender-neutral forms...it never hurts to better one's English skills!
 
Yea Im there as well. Why do things have to change because someone got their feelings hurt? Guys is all inclusive Just like when I gather my guys and say listen up lady's no one takes offense. This is said in jest to get their attention. Now come on this is a turning forum and if you are not treated like some outcast or troll what is the issue? This is a great bunh of people and a family I am proud to be part of. (was that inclusive enough?) Why are we letting anyone change things if the language is too rough and the content unsatisfactory then I say look elsewhere. Yes I am all for expanding membership but again at what price? Ok no fat jokes or Im leaving....LOL
 
I'm not sure I understand the problem either.. even back when we didn't worry about "political correctness" I remember the expression "you guys" to mean everyone in the group.

I have three daughters... actually step daughters, but the point is all three of them use the express "you guys" to whomever they are talking to... this does not appear to be a local custom as one daughter lives and has lived her entire life in California, and the other two, one of whom lives and has lived her entire life in Illinois. The third has lived in both Texas as a teen and Illinois as an adult. Two of them are college educated professionals - one a teacher and one a supervisor in a very technical field - the third while not college educated is working as a law tech/secretary in a large law firm.

I think my point is, listen to the conversation, not necessarily picking at the individual words used.... maybe why in the south we say "Y'all".....:biggrin::biggrin:
 
I too agree with Justin, perhaps I am just totally out of touch, but I often address my friends in mixed groups as "guys". Apparently Merriam-Webster agrees....

Merriam -Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: guy
Function: noun
Etymology: Guy Fawkes
Date: 1806
1 often capitalized : a grotesque effigy of Guy Fawkes traditionally displayed and burned in England on Guy Fawkes Day
2 chiefly British : a person of grotesque appearance
3 a : man, fellow b : person —used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex <saw her and the rest of the guys>
4 : individual, creature <the other dogs pale in companion to this little guy>

I think of the members here as persons who are penturners. Nothing more or less. It appears there are some who must be overly sensitive. I am sorry, but it is your problem not the forums problem.

As said above, just my opinion and it's worth what you paid.
 
To me, if I heard a reasonable explanation from a female member as to why/how the occassional use of "you guys" in a post on this forum is offensive to them, I would certainly listen to it. Each time that Mickr has posted his protest at the use of "you guys," at least one female member has posted to say that no offense is taken at the statement, but I've never seen a post from a female member complaining about it. So I'm still puzzled about why this is being made such a big issue. Mickr says female members have contacted him about it, and I take him at his word, but I've never seen it.
 
LOL..... I really believe that it would take a micrometer to measure the thickness of some people's skin. How about this, everyone start their posts using whatever greeting they feel comfortable using. Hey Guys, Hey Gals, Hey Humans, what difference does it make? If someone opens a post and reads a greeting that doesn't sit well with them they can immediately close the post because it was probably written by a bad, insensitive, devisive dude, or dudette, or whomever. Personally, I frequent this forum to learn about turning pens. I rarely even notice how a post starts, I just get to the information that the poster is providing.

Please read the rules in my signature line!
 
First I often have it in my mind when I write comments that this group is not made up of only Men. When I first started turning pens a member of the Yahoo group, and an original member as well as elder of the penturners guild. Made a short comment on the issue of Women being involved in what she called an traditional male activity. She pointed out that for a very long time she was concerned that her comments or would either be ignored or even attacked simply because she was female. Nothing of the like happened when she did finally muster up the courage and has for a very long time been recognized as one of the best of the best penturners. What I want to point out in this story is that the fear, reluctance and concern was hers. it was not grounded in fact or experience. Likewise, those that choose to not participate in this group do so for whatever reasons they have. Using some excuse like I was not included does not fly with me. No one ever invited me either. If they did not have that reason to avoid the group they would simply find some other reason. simple as that. they choose to not be a part of this group and that is the bottom line. If I am replying to a comment that was written by a man I will address it to a man. If others take offense that I did not reply neutrally on sex, that is their freedom to do. They also get to live in the results of that decision. I have never seen anyone be discouraged to participate for anything other than maybe straying a bit from popular opinion. I have never seen sex be an issue for how members are treated. In other words if there was an issue about what is going on in this group I would have concern. Concern for anything that is not going on does not. Saying that we do no include anyone is not at all true. it is obvious that just the opposite is true. Evidenced by the volume of participation that does go on. an individuals "Hang Ups" Are theirs to deal with in whatever manner they see fit.
I do recognize that a womens opinion on matters of a shop could very well not be taken as seriously as those made by a man. If this is going on I am not aware of it and would trully appreciate being educated. I also see that a womens comments cocerning "Crafting" would be taken more seriously than a mans. traditionally at least in this country the shop is seen as the mans realm and crafting is womens work. that simply is the way it is. If you desire to get beyond it you have to be willing to deal with it, not avoid it not ask everyone else to do what you are not willing to do. but take the risk and take it on. sort of like this thread is doing. take a slap on the face or two but I bet lots of people are looking reading and thinking. who knows what changes it might make.
 
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guy1 /gaÉŞ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [gahy] Show IPA noun, verb, guyed, guyâ‹…ing.

Use guys in a Sentence


See web results for guys


See images of guys

–noun 1.Informal. a man or boy; fellow: He's a nice guy. 2.Usually, guys. Informal. persons of either sex; people: Could one of you guys help me with this? 3.Chiefly British Slang. a grotesquely dressed person.4.(often initial capital letter
thinsp.png
) British. a grotesque effigy of Guy Fawkes that is paraded through the streets and burned on Guy Fawkes Day.

Nuf said, Guys......
 
Gender neutral forum participants,
This kind of reminds me of the sexual harassment video we have to watch each year. The video teaches that an incident occurs when someone is offended, regardless if the offense was intended. While I understand the spirit of the policy, taken literally it means that if you find blue shirts offensive, I have to stop wearing blue shirts. My point is, the use of the term "guys" is not intended to be offensive to our lady friends and it should be OK. However, if significant participants are offended then we as a community should understand that and change. It is a tough call to understand what "significant" is in a global community where so many cultural differences can create a wide range of offenses. Before too long we are all constrained to the point that we all become gray sludge. Honestly, if the term "guys" is offensive to some, there is probably not many forums on the planet where you will not be offended.
The real discussion point here, ought to be: how do we make the lady folks feel more welcome? I really doubt that it is the mere usage of a single term that is driving them away!
 
How about "folks?"

One of my pet peeves is waitstaff (usually infinitely younger than me) who greet my wife and I in a restaurant with "Hi, guys." It may be just me, but I'm not your bud or your mate or your pal, I'm your customer. Of course, maybe if I changed my selection of eateries to more upscale joints....

:)

As far as I'm concerned, if someone finds something offensive, I'll avoid it simply because I have enough enemies in the world and far too few friends.

My $0.02.
Doug
 
I never heard the word "guys" used for women until I got to Japan (in a few international circles.) Since being here, (24+ years) I have heard "guys" so much by ladies in referring to both men and women, that I use it too for certain groups and don't feel strange doing it either. But I DO know in which group I must use it and which groups I better not!

If you called one of my three grown daughters "girls" they would let you know that they are grown, adults and mature. It is my youngest 26 year old living in Texas that pushes against being called "Girl" even once. :wink:

The fact is, there is NO way to not offend someone with some word that is generic, or inclusive or exclusive to others. Inclusive words are exclusive to some, and words exclusive to some are inclusive to others. The same words have different values to different cultures. Some people attach such strong values to words either negatively or positively that they can't operate without their specific word. But the rest of the world is not going to change for a few.

When people ask me about the prejudice that comes from being a foreigner, I respond with this: I choose to find my self worth in who I am, not what I am called or seen by others. My value to "me, myself and I", is in who I am, not what other people call me. Life is too short to let other people manipulate them by a word, intentional or unintentional. A person who wants and demands to be called and addressed in a certain way needs to find their self worth in who they are, not whether someone perceives them one way or another. No one can change the whole world's, or even a small group's language habits, but they can change how they personally react to it by where they place their value.

I live in a culture in which soooo many cultural values assigned to words are totally opposite of western culture values. I watch foreigners come over here and go bananas after a few months of living with cultural values that slight their ego on a daily basis. :rolleyes: I definitely am in the minority over here and I know it every morning when I look in the mirror. But I find my self worth in who I am and what I do, not what people sometimes call me. I have been called "gaijin" on numerous occasions and it is often an intentionally rude mannerism used by little kids to grownups. No problem!

PART II: Another real problem is that IAP is biased to the US population. It is not intentional and is not meant to be that way. It is by the fact that the majority of members reside there. But I have noticed that our fellow Aussie, Canadian and Brits take it in stride and if their locations were not under their avatar, I would not know it. But This is going to happen when the majority is located in one place, and nothing can really be done about it. There are things Japanese here that I can participate in all the time, but I am never going to be Japanese, so I just enjoy who I am and the environment that I am living in! It is great even when I can't understand it! :biggrin:
 
I guess I'm a repeat offender. I did a search on my posts and in 509 posts I have used the offending word 4 times.....that's once every 73.75 days....

But Eureka! I have used SWMBO twice (mis-spelled once) and LOML 12 TIMES!

Does that make it worse, or better???

Tom
 
Confused

How can anyone possibly be "excluded" from an online forum such as this? Granted, people can be banned. But, to my knowledge this has never been done here based on gender, ethnicity, religion, politics, etc. The only banning I have ever seen was for behavior and only behavior.

So, again - how can someone not feel included? No one here prevents another from making a comment. Gender is only a factor if it is made known - and ultimately, that is a choice of poster - not the forum. And I simply can not see how it would factor into a meaningful conversation re: pen turning technique, feedback, etc.

I'm sorry, whether it is a gender based or any other label based - saying someone one (or some group) is not "included" in this forum is simply not true.

In an earlier post, the point was made that an individual's reluctance to post and their feelings regarding the result of those posts was entirely based on their personal feelings and in now way were a reflection of reality.

Hmmm - is that the case here as well? Instead of looking at the group as a whole here for blame, shouldn't the conversation start with the individual or individuals who are stating that they don't feel welcome and ask for specific examples of what is causing that?

If it is in fact the use of "guys" - get over it. That is a personal bias that has no merit in terms of being derogatory by dictionary definition and well defined common usage (see multiple above posts). On the other hand if there is a specific behavior by a specific individual that resulted in this feeling - that is why we have moderators (who do a dang find job btw) and should be addressed through them.

But in no way should the group be held accountable for something that is neither realistic nor provable. In fact, it would not be more realistic for the group as a whole to be insulted by the accusation.

Rant done - back to work.
 
Daniel said:
Made a short comment on the issue of Women being involved in what she called an traditional male activity. She pointed out that for a very long time she was concerned that her comments or would either be ignored or even attacked simply because she was female.
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Can't see why a woman would think her work would be less appreciated than a man's... knowledge has no gender. I go to the Foothills Art Guild show in Knoxville almost every year. While there are several booths there that have pen turners, by far and away, the best turners at that show are two women who have had a booth there every time I go...The other booths, all men, could definitely learn from these ladies.... they do some absolutely fabulous work... I always stop and admire their work, and try to pick up a tidbit of info from them.
 
TellicoTurning said:
Can't see why a woman would think her work would be less appreciated than a man's... knowledge has no gender. I go to the Foothills Art Guild show in Knoxville almost every year. While there are several booths there that have pen turners, by far and away, the best turners at that show are two women who have had a booth there every time I go...The other booths, all men, could definitely learn from these ladies.... they do some absolutely fabulous work... I always stop and admire their work, and try to pick up a tidbit of info from them.
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Keep in mind that this was a few years before the IAP even came into existence. as far as I know there where no other active females even on the Yahoo group and so she was in a position of breaking fresh ice in her mind. sort of like a girl getting into the boys club house. It was not her work that she thought woudl not be appreciated. It was her opinion. as in what woudl a woman know about mans work. The point of my relating that story was to demonstrate that her concerns where generated by her own mind and that no such responce was ever displayed. in fact the group responded to her in exactly the opposite direction. you can be afraid and stay in your seat or you can stand up and prove yourself either right or wrong. In this case, gratefully, she was proven wrong. But imagine had she jsut chosen to continue to be afraid to comment because she might get shot down. what a tragedy it would have been for penturning.
 
Mickr, maybe you can chip in with a little more info. Is it just the language used on this forum that makes these women feel left out? It seems to me that the problem must be something other then the fact that people say "hey guys" and that you were just using that as one example. Is there more to it?
 
I am the only man in a house of three three women, none take the term personally and use it themselves on occasion. I dont like the term "you guys" used by a waitstaff person (most are young women) while my family is ordering a meal, where it is used as an all inclusive term. I feel it is minimizing my presence, and feel, out of respect, it should be sir or ma'am. But I dont feel offended that it is a gender reference and I dont dismiss the restauraunt as an option when choosing to dine.
 
Daniel said:
Keep in mind that this was a few years before the IAP even came into existence. as far as I know there where no other active females even on the Yahoo group and so she was in a position of breaking fresh ice in her mind. sort of like a girl getting into the boys club house. It was not her work that she thought woudl not be appreciated. It was her opinion. as in what woudl a woman know about mans work. The point of my relating that story was to demonstrate that her concerns where generated by her own mind and that no such responce was ever displayed. in fact the group responded to her in exactly the opposite direction. you can be afraid and stay in your seat or you can stand up and prove yourself either right or wrong. In this case, gratefully, she was proven wrong. But imagine had she jsut chosen to continue to be afraid to comment because she might get shot down. what a tragedy it would have been for penturning.
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This also reminded me of back when I first made that statement about "knowledge having no gender"... I went to work for a company in Houston that had a woman station manager... When the station first opened the company had hired a man to run it, but he left for another opportunity and the company was left with the decision of hiring another man or letting Betty run the station... since it was a customs brokerage house and she was a very competent broker agent, they left her in charge... in '85 they hired me to do exports.. at Betty's urging.. and I worked under her direction. When I was hired, Betty got a very large pay increase to match my salary. She made some comment to that effect during a conversation we had early in our business relationship. She was actually surprised to learn that she was underpaid for the position she held... in that conversation I told her I was also surprised because I knew her abilities and job skills and knew she was worth the new salary or more.. that's when I told her Knowledge has no gender..
 
Because when people realize they are women it opens them up to all sorts of harassing and even dangerous behavior.
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Really?! Are you serious?! I could understand how a forum and even the internet as a whole could be dangerous to children, but how in the heck is it dangerous to women. My wife has been a member here for a while now. She has never even received a negative comment towards her let alone something dangerous. Could you elaborate how a this forum could be dangerous to women???
 
This is silly! I think some are making way too much out of this as far as I'm concerned!

Over new years I was visiting family in California, frequently surrounded by gorgeous young nieces and it was not uncommon for one of them to come running into a room room full of males and females, both young and old shouting... "Any of you guys want to order a pizza?"

No one thought anything of it, no one got offended, no one felt left out, no one tried to correct anyone, why..... because it's no big deal and certainly not worth arguing over..... except of course on an internet forum! :eek:

Trust me, when someone came into the room and said..."Mom said to tell you guys that dinner is ready" EVERYONE headed for the table! :biggrin:
 
Come on Ladies

I have yet to see one female post to this conversation, at least not one I can identify. (Golly! Does this mean that Mickr is right?) I for one would like to hear from the female members of IAP. What do you think? Are men being insensitive by considering you one of the, "Guys"? Does the language on the forum make you feel excluded or discourage you from contributing? What do you Gals think?
 
mbroberg said:
I have yet to see one female post to this conversation, at least not one I can identify. (Golly! Does this mean that Mickr is right?) I for one would like to hear from the female members of IAP. What do you think? Are men being insensitive by considering you one of the, "Guys"? Does the language on the forum make you feel excluded or discourage you from contributing? What do you Gals think?
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That's because they are out in their shops having fun making pens while all the men are involved with this conversation!
 
Daniel said:
Keep in mind that this was a few years before the IAP even came into existence. as far as I know there where no other active females even on the Yahoo group and so she was in a position of breaking fresh ice in her mind.
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I think I may know who you are talking about as I was a member of the Yahoo group well before IAP or the PenMaker's Guild was formed. Whether or not it is the same person - the thing to keep in mind here is that when I first started turning, a Yahoo group member was instrumental in teaching me the basics and getting me to the point where I was successful more often then not. I still have the first "custom" pen that this person taught me. It was months before I had any clue to this person's gender and in fact was a complete non-issue when I found out that it was a "she" that had been helping me.

Again - whether or not someone feels "left out" in an online forum such as this (well maintained and populated mostly by mature adults) is really going to be a personal issue - not a group issue.

With out a doubt, I would not have enjoyed the hobby as much as I do nor be reasonably competent with out my early tutor's help. But the fact that is was a woman helping me and not a man had absolutely zero impact on my requesting help or her willingness to help. As a point of fact - she was the first to respond to my request for help and the most consistent in offering advice as well as constructive critique of my work.

This merely proves my point of an individual's choice on how they approach this forum - much less the rest of the world.
 
I myself do not have any problem at all with the term "guys". I use it all the timebecause it is quick and easy to type. I have always been and am very proud to be "one of the guys". I've never felt left out or been harassed on the forums. I love reading the posts and seeing all the beautiful items that have been turned. I just recently started turning again so haven't posted any pictures myself in forever, but I know when I post again that no one will treat my any differently. You guys are a great bunch of people and I'm glad to be here.:biggrin:
 
mbroberg said:
LOL..... I really believe that it would take a micrometer to measure the thickness of some people's skin. How about this, everyone start their posts using whatever greeting they feel comfortable using. Hey Guys, Hey Gals, Hey Humans, what difference does it make? ...
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I like it.

Ok you English pig-dogs...
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
:wink:
 
GUYS, GUYS, GUYS! come on now. I had to take english and grammar in school. I don't wish to revisit it here. This site is about woodworking, wood turning, pen making or really what ever hobby you enjoy and sharing it. We can share accomplishments, ask questions and give advise about hard earned lessons. Its fun and educational. If I have offended anyone with my use of the Queens English, oh well .... I don't recall seeing any posts about this being a sexist, female unfriendly site
 
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The internet is dangerous for women..most hide the fact..many use diffent names in phone books..anywhere predators roam, women have to be more careful
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Wow where do you get your information from? Children are in danger of predators not women. Women are in no more danger then men in regards to the internet. My wife or my four sisters or my mom has never felt in danger from the internet. On the other hand I will not let my daughter on without supervision. I'm sorry but your post makes it seem like women can not take care of themselves and need a man to do it for them. Now that is a sexist attitude.
 
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