DaveM
Member
I paid last night.
Thanks again for running this buy.
Dave
Thanks again for running this buy.
Dave
El Grande tap and die - closed.
- Thread starter jjudge
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jjudge
Member
I was asked via email to explain the desire or need for such a tap & die. So, I wrote a short and long explanation.
I think its worth sharing.
Why a multi-start tap & die?
Short, dry reason:
A multi-start tap & die will let you thread a cap and body so that the cap will "start" at multiple locations, when twisting onto the pen body.
"Normal" taps/die will thread so that only a single location will work (e.g., the pen nib holder into the body; or any typical screw into a nut).
Multi-start tap & die are just not readily available.
Group buy?
Bruce, George, and whomever else joined that first attempt paid about $500 for their sets.
We've got 24+ people (I hope) and the price is under/near $200
Ok - but WHY?
Here is the long reason:
Penturning or penmaking is a hobby for some, a business for others. And, for some, its a compulsion.
Woodturning is fun -- you get to make beautiful, functional art to which people respond. In any art, this is an awesome feedback mechanism. However, with penturning, that feedback loop is faster (in the beginning).
It takes me a month to rough turn a bowl from a log; then dry and warp; and then a final turn down to size and finish. But a pen ... so much quicker!
This is how it goes ...
You start with the cheaper pen kits. You can turn a few pens in an evening. By that night, your friend/partner/mate is telling you its beautful and takes it to work the next day.
Other people respond to your pens. You start giving them away. Heck! its only a $2 pen kit. You start selling a few.
You challenge yourself, read more and obsessively scan the pictures at penturners.org, thepenshop, fountainpennetwork, and sawmillcreek.org -- seeking pens to try (copy).
You get better and start taking more risks.
Other peoples' pens now inspire you to move past copying and challenge you to think along idea expressions or progressions.
You buy better kits. Maybe you start casting odder, interesting and novelty items (fabric, ice cream jimmies/sprinkles, chocolate chips, sand/sea shells). [note: skip the chocolate chips - even the mini chips won't work: too tall + heat from sanding problems]
You buy better kits: some rollerballs and maybe a fountain pen. You oogle the expensive kits (mmm... lotus .... emperor). Ken's stars + stripes, puzzle and flag pens are awesome, and inspire you more (until you realize he has a laser cutter, then you cry)
You start to realize that your skill has gotten better. You start getting into pens themselves -- history, art, ink, paper, the experience.
You also start to realize that this niche has a decent set of talented folks. You start to see the progression "crafts" to "craft." You see the art in the craft.
You've already played with shape and form ... novelty and art ... materials... surface ornamentation ... segmentation ... etc. You want to challenge yourself further: not just quality, but in expression.
Maybe you want to differentiate yourself, or maybe you want to simply progress to another degree ... but you realize that you have control over many variables except for the pen kits themselves.
Don't get me wrong, there are some nice pen kits available to us *and* the people who receive your pens think the Baron (sedona, jr gent, retro, whatever) is a beautiful piece of functional art. However, after seeing 1000s of pictures of these <insert pen kit/style here>, and making maybe hundreds, you want to break free.
So, you buy a closed-end mandrel to make pens without the metal end caps. Your pens look less like the kit you're using.
The crutch that the pen kit provides is a little more removed and its really just you making pens "old school." You are separating yourself from the herd (sorry fellow pen makers) and moving along the path of more penmaking mastership.
However, you're still tied down by pen clip + pen coupling (cap-to-body connection).
This is hard to solve, because a normal tap + die won't really work.
You need a way to thread so that the cap can "start" on the pen at multiple locations. You need tap and die that cut multiple spirals of threads.
... and they are just not available off the shelf.
Bruce, George and whomever else pursued the tooling of a multi-start tap + die paid nearly <s>$500</s> (edit: oops) over $200 for the set.
So, here you are, buying a multi-start tap and die. One of a set of folks who've help drive the price down to just under $200.
-- joe
I think its worth sharing.
Why a multi-start tap & die?
Short, dry reason:
A multi-start tap & die will let you thread a cap and body so that the cap will "start" at multiple locations, when twisting onto the pen body.
"Normal" taps/die will thread so that only a single location will work (e.g., the pen nib holder into the body; or any typical screw into a nut).
Multi-start tap & die are just not readily available.
Group buy?
Bruce, George, and whomever else joined that first attempt paid about $500 for their sets.
We've got 24+ people (I hope) and the price is under/near $200
Ok - but WHY?
Here is the long reason:
Penturning or penmaking is a hobby for some, a business for others. And, for some, its a compulsion.
Woodturning is fun -- you get to make beautiful, functional art to which people respond. In any art, this is an awesome feedback mechanism. However, with penturning, that feedback loop is faster (in the beginning).
It takes me a month to rough turn a bowl from a log; then dry and warp; and then a final turn down to size and finish. But a pen ... so much quicker!
This is how it goes ...
You start with the cheaper pen kits. You can turn a few pens in an evening. By that night, your friend/partner/mate is telling you its beautful and takes it to work the next day.
Other people respond to your pens. You start giving them away. Heck! its only a $2 pen kit. You start selling a few.
You challenge yourself, read more and obsessively scan the pictures at penturners.org, thepenshop, fountainpennetwork, and sawmillcreek.org -- seeking pens to try (copy).
You get better and start taking more risks.
Other peoples' pens now inspire you to move past copying and challenge you to think along idea expressions or progressions.
You buy better kits. Maybe you start casting odder, interesting and novelty items (fabric, ice cream jimmies/sprinkles, chocolate chips, sand/sea shells). [note: skip the chocolate chips - even the mini chips won't work: too tall + heat from sanding problems]
You buy better kits: some rollerballs and maybe a fountain pen. You oogle the expensive kits (mmm... lotus .... emperor). Ken's stars + stripes, puzzle and flag pens are awesome, and inspire you more (until you realize he has a laser cutter, then you cry)
You start to realize that your skill has gotten better. You start getting into pens themselves -- history, art, ink, paper, the experience.
You also start to realize that this niche has a decent set of talented folks. You start to see the progression "crafts" to "craft." You see the art in the craft.
You've already played with shape and form ... novelty and art ... materials... surface ornamentation ... segmentation ... etc. You want to challenge yourself further: not just quality, but in expression.
Maybe you want to differentiate yourself, or maybe you want to simply progress to another degree ... but you realize that you have control over many variables except for the pen kits themselves.
Don't get me wrong, there are some nice pen kits available to us *and* the people who receive your pens think the Baron (sedona, jr gent, retro, whatever) is a beautiful piece of functional art. However, after seeing 1000s of pictures of these <insert pen kit/style here>, and making maybe hundreds, you want to break free.
So, you buy a closed-end mandrel to make pens without the metal end caps. Your pens look less like the kit you're using.
The crutch that the pen kit provides is a little more removed and its really just you making pens "old school." You are separating yourself from the herd (sorry fellow pen makers) and moving along the path of more penmaking mastership.
However, you're still tied down by pen clip + pen coupling (cap-to-body connection).
This is hard to solve, because a normal tap + die won't really work.
You need a way to thread so that the cap can "start" on the pen at multiple locations. You need tap and die that cut multiple spirals of threads.
... and they are just not available off the shelf.
Bruce, George and whomever else pursued the tooling of a multi-start tap + die paid nearly <s>$500</s> (edit: oops) over $200 for the set.
So, here you are, buying a multi-start tap and die. One of a set of folks who've help drive the price down to just under $200.
-- joe
jjudge
Member
people / status link posted to first article here (page 1)
in case you're nosy:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p5ipezQnAB6fbvXWDTRt1GA&output=html
-- joe
in case you're nosy:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p5ipezQnAB6fbvXWDTRt1GA&output=html
-- joe
I also don't understand why on earth this should be a topic of speculation. The pitch *IS* 1 mm. M10x1 is correct. Plus, it has been said that it works. This feels like some Greek philosophers sitting around arguing whether a horse has 3 legs or 4 legs. The female thread can be cut exactly with an M10x1 tap. The *MALE* thread is not a fully formed ISO thread - but that's a differnet story, totally irrelevant here. The pitch can be taken eactly off the male thread, using a pitch gouge. The ID of am M10x1 female thread should be 9mm - go measure! Well, it is...
Funny how these isosceles triangles work out, how you simply subtract the pitch (1)from the major thread (10) to get the minor thresd (9) [8D]
WriteRev
Member
Paypal sent.
Thanks for taking this on!
Steve
Thanks for taking this on!
Steve
Firefyter-emt
Member
Hey Joe, did you get to me yet? I didn't see me in there for the die only?
Texatdurango
Member
Rich, I have two questions based on your comments.
1. Is the 10x1mm tap "Correct" or "close enough" for the Berea BHW-703/4/5 nib holder? THAT is what some, including myself are referring to!
2. Have you drilled and tapped many holes with a 9mm bit and the 10x1mm tap for the Berea BHW-703/4/5 nib holders? If so, what are your impressions of the fit?
I've only done a few dozen lately but found that the fit was so sloppy that I changed bit sizes.
The sloppy fit was explained to me by two different local tap and die makers working at two different tool supply houses who both had a look at and measured the nib holder. They both said basically the same thing; that since the molded plastic threads of the nib holder were non-standard, the 10x1mm was indeed "close enough" and would work but not provide a smooth "wiggle free, **** poor" fit (as one die maker put it).
"Bruce, George and whomever else pursued the tooling of a multi-start tap + die paid nearly $500 for the set."
Actually Joe, just to keep folks from throwing around wild numbers, we paid a shade over $200 each, not $500 for the tap and die.
George
ldb2000
Member
Hi Joe
Paypal sent for one complete set (all 3)
Paypal sent for one complete set (all 3)
Alright, close enough. What's 'correct' in molded plastic? I don't have access to the parts drawings... The real problem with the fit is (I think) that the male thread on the nib is not a fully formed thread. It is undersize. The peaks are formed, the valleys are flat. The OD is not 10mm... Similarly, the female thread. If you cut one open you can see that. I just looked at a broken one. But the pitch is 1mm. I guess molded plastic threads are a whole different ball game!
So, I was wrong in stating it was 'correct'. Also, the 9mm seems like a 'coincidence' nearly because the threads are not fully formed.
My thread gauge has 1.1 mm and it is over... I still think the 1mm pitch is 'correct' I mean 'close enough'
So what are you doing... drill undersize and don't run the plug tap in all the way? Hmmm... that would not do it either...
I think if you drill 9mm and tap M10x1 you will get a fit that is as good as the original fittings which is NOT a perfect, no-slop fit! So the answer is... cut both threads, make your own section, and use screw-in cartridge nib assemblies like Anthony sells. Don't follow the Berea model, use a construction like CSU uses. An M10x1 die should not be hard to find. You can get Schmidt assemblies also. The internal thread for a Schmidt cartridge is M6.5x.5 and I believe for a Bock is M7.5x.5. I don't have the drawing for the Bock, maybe Anthony does. If you go that route you own both threads and the fit is up to you. It will be better than the original!
Texatdurango
Member
I think since the flats of the male threads are shallow, a slightly smaller drill can be used that what is normally recommended with the 10x1 tap. I tried Letter "S", 11/32 and letter "R" before settling on the letter "Q" which still allows the nib to easily screw in but not near the slop as with the 9mm.
I am not recommending this to anyone, simply stating that it works for me. I also like using the Berea nib holder because of the simple black holder which can easily be turned down to cover with a matching acrylic piece to match the pen. I've used a few CSUSA nib holders but the problem I have encountered is that in order to get the larger holder, you have to order a complete kit, which I don't want to do.
George
I am not recommending this to anyone, simply stating that it works for me. I also like using the Berea nib holder because of the simple black holder which can easily be turned down to cover with a matching acrylic piece to match the pen. I've used a few CSUSA nib holders but the problem I have encountered is that in order to get the larger holder, you have to order a complete kit, which I don't want to do.
George
jjudge
Member
I fixed the $500 number in the previous msg.
--
-- joe
--
-- joe
I moved to a separate thread - this is getting quite far from the group buy http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34311
Randy_
Member
The reason I raised this question is pretty simple/obvious. Joe posted the following statement:
“…..The M10.0mm x 1.0mm tap for the nib-holder isn't exactly perfect. The threading is the closest folks have figured out through trial and error. It works enough with the plastic threads of the El Grande nib holder. So, if you are purchasing the optional tap -- note that it may not be the correct threading. It may be close enough, though…..â€
which gives the strong impression that the tap in question could be the incorrect size.
Since Rich says that an M10x1 tap is correct, I am perfectly happy to accept that information as correct unless someone has strong information to the contrary. OTOH, the fact that it “works†is less than a compelling argument. Oval pens work. Transmissions seated a little deep or shallow still work. Barrels sanded proud of the hardware work; but all of us will avoid those things like the plague if we possibly can. And, I for one, probably would not ever consider purchasing a 3 legged horse either!
Not quite sure what is meant here. “ID†is not a dimension normally associated with describing tap dimensions. The tap drill size is 9.0 mm; but the minor diameter of the M10x1 male thread is actually 8.773mm and the female thread is actually 8.917mm.
Neither the male nor the female threads are pure isosceles triangles so maybe Rich enlisted his Greek philosophers for this issue as well. Here is a drawing of the geometry of a metric thread for those who are interested.
And here is a link to a chart that shows the actual values for the standard metric threads. http://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm
I really don’t have a dog in this fight. I just noticed there seemed to be a little uncertainty in the size of the one tap and provided some information that might point folks in a direction that could resolve the uncertainty…..thought someone might want to look into this a little closer before spending a lot of money. Might be a problem here, might not? Do as you see fit.
Dallas, TX................................In Their Memory
dfurlano
Member
The nib tap is $7.63. If it's wrong I don't think it's a big deal. The triple start taps have been proven to work properly and they were sent to the tap maker for size determination and verification.
Firefyter-emt
Member
One could always buy the M10x1 die and cut the final threads for the proper fit as well you know.
Exactly my sensation.
These threads are NOT standard threads. Hence the charts don't work. The pitch is correct, the threads work - but are lose. Even in the original!
One comment: Anybody ordering these taps/dies is going down a path way outside the kit-pen world. You have to be ready for surprises.
And if we want to split hairs... the minor diameter of the female thread that I incorrectly called 'ID' can't be under 9mm... it is over
jjudge
Member
Status
-- 30 confirmed (paypal paid, or check/money order coming)
-- I've not heard from 4 folks: Chuck Key, lane223, Nickfff, RichW
-- Jim in Oakville may or may not be in.
-- joe
-- 30 confirmed (paypal paid, or check/money order coming)
-- I've not heard from 4 folks: Chuck Key, lane223, Nickfff, RichW
-- Jim in Oakville may or may not be in.
-- joe
Chuck Key
Member
I sent you two emails on this. Sending a $191.58 check/money order for tap, die, tap combo.
Chuckie
Randy_
Member
Originally posted by scubaman
.....And if we want to split hairs... the minor diameter of the female thread that I incorrectly called 'ID' can't be under 9mm... it is over
If you will think about this carefully, you will realize this is not possible. you can't put a 9+ mm peg in a 9 mm hole.
sptfr43
Member
Have we beat this to death yet? I would say so.
I suspect one of us got the male/female thing backwards.
Texatdurango
Member
Has it been beat to death... YES! Did it need to be brought out...YES!
I brought all this 10x1mm tap business to the surface last week because after making a few "kitless pens" I received many emails asking almost every question under the sun and there was/is a lot of confusion, especially with the nib taps. As Rich said, many folks are stepping out into unchartered territory and there isn't always a clear black and white answer when you are making your own parts rather than just pressing a kit together. I just didn't want anyone hollaring foul when their multi start tap and dies arrived and they started seeing sloppy threads with their nib tap and wanting someone to blame for not telling them what to expect!
The way I see it, everyone by now should be aware of the Berea nib and 10x1mm tap issue.
Ligget
Member
Without getting technical, will this tap and die set work for the purpose it is being bought for?
Not too bothered about the M10 matter, but I want to get a tap and die I can use.
Not too bothered about the M10 matter, but I want to get a tap and die I can use.
lane223
Member
Joe,
I sent a couple of e-mails and paypal payment yesterday, and another e-mail today. Trying this means of communication also.
I sent a couple of e-mails and paypal payment yesterday, and another e-mail today. Trying this means of communication also.
jtate
Member
Has someone prepared or will someone prepare a tutorial on the use of our taps and dies?
Now, that would be quite helpful.
Now, that would be quite helpful.
sptfr43
Member
paypal sent Joe.
kgwaugh
Member
OK, Joe, I have come up with:
Tap 128.00
Die 59.60
Tap 7.63
USPS 4.60
Ins 2.45
for: $186.58
I am sending the check out today; sorry for the delay. If this amount is off, LET ME KNOW, please. I scanned back through all of the posts and think I have the correct prices.
Thanks for putting this together!
Gene
Tap 128.00
Die 59.60
Tap 7.63
USPS 4.60
Ins 2.45
for: $186.58
I am sending the check out today; sorry for the delay. If this amount is off, LET ME KNOW, please. I scanned back through all of the posts and think I have the correct prices.
Thanks for putting this together!
Gene
jjudge
Member
Moving status to email messages now ...
... last chance for stragglers who haven't joined in ....
... last chance for stragglers who haven't joined in ....
jski
Member
Is there still time to jump in on this? What do I do?
Johnathan
Member
If anyone has ordered all three and has changed their minds, let me know, I will buy it from you. Thanks
Johnathan
Member
If anyone purchased all three and wish they had not, email me as I'd like to buy them. Thanks.
DaveM
Member
I got mine today. Thank you very much. I can't wait to try it out.
ldb2000
Member
Hi Joe
Got mine today but have to wait a bit .
Thanks for everything
Got mine today but have to wait a bit .
Thanks for everything
Rojo22
Local Chapter Leader
Got mine in the mail yesterday, cannot wait to see how it turns out.
bjackman
Member
Joe,
Mine arrived safe and sound in yesterday's mail as well.
Thanks again for taking on this project and offering it out to the group.
Isn't it great how an excercise in trust from both sides such as this works out so smoothly.
Can't wait to play with them and wish I didn't have so many other projects waiting in front if them.
Mine arrived safe and sound in yesterday's mail as well.
Thanks again for taking on this project and offering it out to the group.
Isn't it great how an excercise in trust from both sides such as this works out so smoothly.
Can't wait to play with them and wish I didn't have so many other projects waiting in front if them.
gketell
Local Chapter Leader
Ditto!! Fun to come!
GK
GK
scotian12
Member
Hi Joe...just to let you know that my parcel safely arrived this morning. I appreciate your efforts in organizing this purchase. hopefully we will see a tutorial or two on how to use this new tool. Darrell
Darrell
Buzz
Member
Hi Joe. Mine were received here yesterday morning. Great work, thank you.
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sptfr43
Member
still waiting for mine. was out of town for a couple weeks and don't know if delivery was attempted or mine just got lost in the shuffle.
. was out of town for a couple weeks and don't know if delivery was attempted or mine just got lost in the shuffle.- Status