copying work, yes you copycat.

[Smitty37]

If it's anything like recipes, change it a little and it becomes yours. The pens I see posted here are fantastic, inspiring. If I try to reproduce something similar it will become mine, for it won't be the "same". It may have aluminum or brass inserted in the wood/plastic, or a concealed clip attachment similar to others I've seen, but the actual pen will be "mine". It's a one-off individual item impossible to exactly reproduce. If I sell one, good for me. If you sell one, good for you. If we're standing in adjacent booths and you sell one I might ask, "Why are they selling and mine aren't?" Maybe I made junk and you've got nice stuff.

Lock this thread. Let's talk about pens.

Well, if you really aren't interested in this thread, the simple solution is don't follow it... And if you have something good to say about pens or pen making you'll find lots of us willing to talk about it with you.

 

[beck3906]

I believe you're missing the point.

Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does. He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life. Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.

Jeff is also known for his scrolled blanks. Another art form that few pursue because of the time and patience needed to produce one piece.

What do you think Jeff would feel like if someone contacted him and asked for the code itself that he used to create one of his blanks? I would think there are people who have access to CNC equipment who feel they can produce a blank if the had the code. Why bother figuring it out on your own when you can ask someone to give it to you. Jeff has already invested the time and energy to get the code to work and then someone asks for the code outright? And it may have already happened. Jeff should be protected on the intellectual property he's created.

This goes for things like computer software. Anyone who writes code doesn't want their investment copied and resold. Also think about pharmaceuticals. Drug manufacturers are protected for a length of time before generics are produced so the original manufacturer can recover their development time.

We've been down this road a number of times on various topics. Ken Nelson developed the first laser cut kits. There was an uproar when others began making them and now we can find laser kits from a number of folks.

There was a significant discussion years ago about the first computer circuit board blanks and how one of IAP's own was being hurt when a major manufacturer began mass producing them. Many felt the IAP member was being wronged because "his idea" was stolen.

More recently, a discussion on making realistic looking cigar ash was the debated topic. The first person to really show this type of product was asked for his secret on how to make the ash. He didn't want to release that info because he had developed a product and was successfully marketing that product. But many felt he wasn't living up to the IAP mantra of teaching others.

I don't believe I would be willing to release my techniques of making a blank if I was selling blanks to one of the IAP vendors, or really any vendor. Marla Mills makes some great blanks and sells those blanks to various vendors. Should she tell how she makes those blanks at the risk of loosing/reducing her market? If so, she's also undercutting the sales ability of the vendors she sells to.

A comment was made about the big name turners at AAW events showing their technique. The comment told of how the turner was free with their info because they had established their name in the turning community.

I also think there's a lot of folks that attend one of these seminars do so just to see how something is done. I would venture to say that most of the people in the seminar don't try the technique being demonstrated or if they do, they don't use it more than once. Either way, the technique is still safe.

So, back to my original example of Jeff Powell. Will the IAP community be upset when someone begins to offer similar products to what Jeff makes? Many will see it as a means of reducing costs if the new style is cheaper than what Jeff's blanks sell for. Others will think that competition is good for the market. Few will see that the intellectual effort Jeff invested has benefitted everyone.

 

[Smitty37]

I believe you're missing the point.

Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does. He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life. Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.

Jeff is also known for his scrolled blanks. Another art form that few pursue because of the time and patience needed to produce one piece.

What do you think Jeff would feel like if someone contacted him and asked for the code itself that he used to create one of his blanks? I would think there are people who have access to CNC equipment who feel they can produce a blank if the had the code. Why bother figuring it out on your own when you can ask someone to give it to you. Jeff has already invested the time and energy to get the code to work and then someone asks for the code outright? And it may have already happened. Jeff should be protected on the intellectual property he's created.

This goes for things like computer software. Anyone who writes code doesn't want their investment copied and resold. Also think about pharmaceuticals. Drug manufacturers are protected for a length of time before generics are produced so the original manufacturer can recover their development time.

We've been down this road a number of times on various topics. Ken Nelson developed the first laser cut kits. There was an uproar when others began making them and now we can find laser kits from a number of folks.

There was a significant discussion years ago about the first computer circuit board blanks and how one of IAP's own was being hurt when a major manufacturer began mass producing them. Many felt the IAP member was being wronged because "his idea" was stolen.

More recently, a discussion on making realistic looking cigar ash was the debated topic. The first person to really show this type of product was asked for his secret on how to make the ash. He didn't want to release that info because he had developed a product and was successfully marketing that product. But many felt he wasn't living up to the IAP mantra of teaching others.

I don't believe I would be willing to release my techniques of making a blank if I was selling blanks to one of the IAP vendors, or really any vendor. Marla Mills makes some great blanks and sells those blanks to various vendors. Should she tell how she makes those blanks at the risk of loosing/reducing her market? If so, she's also undercutting the sales ability of the vendors she sells to.

A comment was made about the big name turners at AAW events showing their technique. The comment told of how the turner was free with their info because they had established their name in the turning community.

I also think there's a lot of folks that attend one of these seminars do so just to see how something is done. I would venture to say that most of the people in the seminar don't try the technique being demonstrated or if they do, they don't use it more than once. Either way, the technique is still safe.

So, back to my original example of Jeff Powell. Will the IAP community be upset when someone begins to offer similar products to what Jeff makes? Many will see it as a means of reducing costs if the new style is cheaper than what Jeff's blanks sell for. Others will think that competition is good for the market. Few will see that the intellectual effort Jeff invested has benefitted everyone.

They are probably called demosrators.....the purpose of holding seminars is infact exchange of information - they are not about "showing"/selling: Booths are usually informational rather then selling.

 

[Janster]

...most folks here copy others, I have too. It is not to me so much as copying, it is the "see IF " I can actually accomplish a task that I have yet tried to do! I do get satisfaction for getting it done. I do not claim that I was the first to make a particular blank nor do I say "Joe Doe" made a similar blank and I copied it. The new stuff coming out blank wise and otherwise, is inspiring and makes me want to do better. Be well.....J

 

[sbell111]

While Jeff does make some of the coolest, and awe inspiring blanks. Not to insult him but he is really not worth it because well hit is but a one man operation. Now if he was the owner of a multi million dollar operation then it would be more feasible to go and start reproducing his designs and flood the market and minimum cost.

I believe you're missing the point.

Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does. He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life. Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.

Jeff is also known for his scrolled blanks. Another art form that few pursue because of the time and patience needed to produce one piece.

What do you think Jeff would feel like if someone contacted him and asked for the code itself that he used to create one of his blanks? I would think there are people who have access to CNC equipment who feel they can produce a blank if the had the code. Why bother figuring it out on your own when you can ask someone to give it to you. Jeff has already invested the time and energy to get the code to work and then someone asks for the code outright? And it may have already happened. Jeff should be protected on the intellectual property he's created.

This goes for things like computer software. Anyone who writes code doesn't want their investment copied and resold. Also think about pharmaceuticals. Drug manufacturers are protected for a length of time before generics are produced so the original manufacturer can recover their development time.

We've been down this road a number of times on various topics. Ken Nelson developed the first laser cut kits. There was an uproar when others began making them and now we can find laser kits from a number of folks.

There was a significant discussion years ago about the first computer circuit board blanks and how one of IAP's own was being hurt when a major manufacturer began mass producing them. Many felt the IAP member was being wronged because "his idea" was stolen.

More recently, a discussion on making realistic looking cigar ash was the debated topic. The first person to really show this type of product was asked for his secret on how to make the ash. He didn't want to release that info because he had developed a product and was successfully marketing that product. But many felt he wasn't living up to the IAP mantra of teaching others.

I don't believe I would be willing to release my techniques of making a blank if I was selling blanks to one of the IAP vendors, or really any vendor. Marla Mills makes some great blanks and sells those blanks to various vendors. Should she tell how she makes those blanks at the risk of loosing/reducing her market? If so, she's also undercutting the sales ability of the vendors she sells to.

A comment was made about the big name turners at AAW events showing their technique. The comment told of how the turner was free with their info because they had established their name in the turning community.

I also think there's a lot of folks that attend one of these seminars do so just to see how something is done. I would venture to say that most of the people in the seminar don't try the technique being demonstrated or if they do, they don't use it more than once. Either way, the technique is still safe.

So, back to my original example of Jeff Powell. Will the IAP community be upset when someone begins to offer similar products to what Jeff makes? Many will see it as a means of reducing costs if the new style is cheaper than what Jeff's blanks sell for. Others will think that competition is good for the market. Few will see that the intellectual effort Jeff invested has benefitted everyone.

I think that you are missing the point.

It's hard to figure out what the OP is really upset about because he kind of wanders to and fro, but it seems that he is mad not at people who use someone's instructions to create a blank or those that ask for assistance in figuring out how to make a blank. It seems that he is mad solely because people are willing to put in the work to make their own rather than buy them from someone else. To use Jeff as an example, it would seem that the OP would insist that a person buy from Jeff instead of investing his own time and money generating code for his CNC to make himself a blank.

 

[Dan Hintz]

Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does. He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life. Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.

Let me make it clear that I have pored over Jeff's site and I really love his work.

That said, let's be clear what is going on here. The way his work is being described, it's as if he has spent months writing CNC code by hand, line by line. If that is in fact what he is doing, then he's living the hard life.

Let's take, for example, his snowflake pen. I can grab a snowflake outline from Google, take that image into Vectric Cut3D, and create the "thousands of lines of CNC code" in well under 30 minutes. The tribal dragon? I have 100+ tribal dragon images... the process is the same as with the snowflake.

What he's doing with CNC machine, I'm doing with a fiber laser. As I said, I love his work (kindred spirits and all that), but using his work as an example should be done from a standpoint of limited availability (few are doing it), not necessarily one of difficulty or hard-learned arts to be hidden for fear others might copy it. It's creative, but the amount of deep-engraved pens filled with resin is pretty high in the high-dollar pen world... I handled several from different company's at the last pen show I went to (last year).

 

[Jim Burr]

I believe you're missing the point.

Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does. He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life. Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.

Jeff is also known for his scrolled blanks. Another art form that few pursue because of the time and patience needed to produce one piece.

What do you think Jeff would feel like if someone contacted him and asked for the code itself that he used to create one of his blanks? I would think there are people who have access to CNC equipment who feel they can produce a blank if the had the code. Why bother figuring it out on your own when you can ask someone to give it to you. Jeff has already invested the time and energy to get the code to work and then someone asks for the code outright? And it may have already happened. Jeff should be protected on the intellectual property he's created.

This goes for things like computer software. Anyone who writes code doesn't want their investment copied and resold. Also think about pharmaceuticals. Drug manufacturers are protected for a length of time before generics are produced so the original manufacturer can recover their development time.

We've been down this road a number of times on various topics. Ken Nelson developed the first laser cut kits. There was an uproar when others began making them and now we can find laser kits from a number of folks.

There was a significant discussion years ago about the first computer circuit board blanks and how one of IAP's own was being hurt when a major manufacturer began mass producing them. Many felt the IAP member was being wronged because "his idea" was stolen.

More recently, a discussion on making realistic looking cigar ash was the debated topic. The first person to really show this type of product was asked for his secret on how to make the ash. He didn't want to release that info because he had developed a product and was successfully marketing that product. But many felt he wasn't living up to the IAP mantra of teaching others.

I don't believe I would be willing to release my techniques of making a blank if I was selling blanks to one of the IAP vendors, or really any vendor. Marla Mills makes some great blanks and sells those blanks to various vendors. Should she tell how she makes those blanks at the risk of loosing/reducing her market? If so, she's also undercutting the sales ability of the vendors she sells to.

A comment was made about the big name turners at AAW events showing their technique. The comment told of how the turner was free with their info because they had established their name in the turning community.

I also think there's a lot of folks that attend one of these seminars do so just to see how something is done. I would venture to say that most of the people in the seminar don't try the technique being demonstrated or if they do, they don't use it more than once. Either way, the technique is still safe.

So, back to my original example of Jeff Powell. Will the IAP community be upset when someone begins to offer similar products to what Jeff makes? Many will see it as a means of reducing costs if the new style is cheaper than what Jeff's blanks sell for. Others will think that competition is good for the market. Few will see that the intellectual effort Jeff invested has benefited everyone.

Very well said and a good example of why some pen makers don't want their "secrets" floating around. Some don't mind. I'd rather bust my butt in the shop to figure something out than be one of the "Tell-me-how-to-do-it-so-I-don't-learn" crowd.
Keep it to yourself or let it out...personal choice and should be left to the individual.
I guess there would only be one Slim, Sierra, Jr Gent, Cigar or whatever if we didn't try to improve on what the individual can do, not the "inventor".

 

[sbell111]

Keep it to yourself or let it out...personal choice and should be left to the individual.

That is how it is and has always been. I've been hanging out in IAP for a while now and I don't believe that anyone has ever been kicked out for not giving up a secret. Not pointing the finger at you, at all, but it seems that some in this thread and others on this issue are arguing against an opponent that doesn't exist.

 

[Smitty37]

Jeff Powell has invested a significant amount of time writing code for his CNC equipment to create the blanks he does. He's also invested in the equipment to see those creations come to life. Jeff has an artistic eye few possess and can see the final product before it's ever created on the CNC.

Let me make it clear that I have pored over Jeff's site and I really love his work.

That said, let's be clear what is going on here. The way his work is being described, it's as if he has spent months writing CNC code by hand, line by line. If that is in fact what he is doing, then he's living the hard life.

Let's take, for example, his snowflake pen. I can grab a snowflake outline from Google, take that image into Vectric Cut3D, and create the "thousands of lines of CNC code" in well under 30 minutes. The tribal dragon? I have 100+ tribal dragon images... the process is the same as with the snowflake.

What he's doing with CNC machine, I'm doing with a fiber laser. As I said, I love his work (kindred spirits and all that), but using his work as an example should be done from a standpoint of limited availability (few are doing it), not necessarily one of difficulty or hard-learned arts to be hidden for fear others might copy it. It's creative, but the amount of deep-engraved pens filled with resin is pretty high in the high-dollar pen world... I handled several from different company's at the last pen show I went to (last year).

I'm not sure there is a good reason to use his work (or any other specific individuals work) as an example at all.

I strongly suspect also, that all CNC machines are not created equal that the machines will have different capabilities and that the code would not be the same for all machines. But, I'd have to admit that I have not fooled with CNC machining for a long long time. I probably did my first "CNC" work before half the people on this site were born and my last in the early 1980's.

 

[Smitty37]

Keep it to yourself or let it out...personal choice and should be left to the individual.

That is how it is and has always been. I've been hanging out in IAP for a while now and I don't believe that anyone has ever been kicked out for not giving up a secret. Not pointing the finger at you, at all, but it seems that some in this thread and others on this issue are arguing against an opponent that doesn't exist.

That's a point that we do agree on Steve..I've never felt like I had a full handle on what this thread is all about - other that what we've known for a long time - if you do something good, and show it off, someone will copy it and you probably have no recourse.

 

[ottotroll]

Guys, if you don't want someone to copy/emulate an idea, don't publish it.... but remember -Compartmentalized Knowledge is Worthless!
If I am ever feel that I feel the need/desire to hoard my knowledge, then I would simply acknowledging that I am incredibly limited creatively.... PLease look to Thingiverse.com for how we should share ideas -
Thanks,
Richard

 

[Smitty37]

Just a couple of thoughts

I went out and looked at what the person who wrote the article mentioned in the OP is talking about ... I checked her website for her "original" ideas one is a replica of a Hobart mixer done in some other material, that probably does not function but still looks like a Hobart. It seemed to me that every thing I saw on her website was a "copy" of some common item done in a different medium in some cases it was made to look like the original item, in others it's size and shape are original but it does use a different medium. She doesn't really seem to have a problem with copying - when she does it - only when someone tries to do it with something she has copied.

 

[Quality Pen]

I'm a new member to the IAP... so I don't know all it's history nor the members.

But I think it's important to keep in mind that thread -- this community -- is a tricky mix of hobbyists and businesspeople.

 

[Shock me]

The original poster asked to hear what we the community think about this.
Here's what I think about it; I agree with Pablo Picasso and T.S. Eliot.

Picasso supposedly said that "good artists borrow, great artists steal".

Eliot supposedly said that "good writers borrow, great writers steal", his point exemplifying itself, if they ever actually said it.

I once read that "all literature steals from the Greeks and they stole from each other". Since I can't find the source of that quote, I'm going to steal it for myself and call it my own.

So your work was copied? Join the club.

Somebody demands that you share a process you've developed because you are part of the IAP community? That's up to you.

 

[Quality Pen]

The original poster asked to hear what we the community think about this.
Here's what I think about it; I agree with Pablo Picasso and T.S. Eliot.

Picasso supposedly said that "good artists borrow, great artists steal".

Eliot supposedly said that "good writers borrow, great writers steal", his point exemplifying itself, if they ever actually said it.

I once read that "all literature steals from the Greeks and they stole from each other". Since I can't find the source of that quote, I'm going to steal it for myself and call it my own.

So your work was copied? Join the club.

Somebody demands that you share a process you've developed because you are part of the IAP community? That's up to you.

I wonder if the IAP forum itself is a copycat of some prior forum :wink::biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

The original poster asked to hear what we the community think about this.
Here's what I think about it; I agree with Pablo Picasso and T.S. Eliot.

Picasso supposedly said that "good artists borrow, great artists steal".

Eliot supposedly said that "good writers borrow, great writers steal", his point exemplifying itself, if they ever actually said it.

I once read that "all literature steals from the Greeks and they stole from each other". Since I can't find the source of that quote, I'm going to steal it for myself and call it my own.

So your work was copied? Join the club.

Somebody demands that you share a process you've developed because you are part of the IAP community? That's up to you.

I wonder if the IAP forum itself is a copycat of some prior forum :wink::biggrin:

It was TS Eliot but that is a presentation of the "idea" not quote.....he was talking about poets and what he actually wrote is a much longer passage.

 

[Holz Mechaniker]

In comedy. To steal a joke is very bad. Just search out Joe Rogan's assault on Carlos Mencia. I would put up a you tube link but what there is, ain't safe for work. The Late David Brenner Caught a "kid" doing his act called him on it, then went up on stage and finished the show.
NOW if a comic uses a Premise similar to another; ie. Parenthood, Spouses, Kids, that is acceptable it is something that really is unavoidable. That is to say, If you take three to five people here in IAP. give them the same kit, they can come up with their version.

NOW after 96 replies (holy crap is this one of the largest?)
IS it Copying or stealing if you watch a You Tube Channel where the presenter is in fact showing how to make.
OR you purchase a Video of say Tim Yoder, or Richard Raffin Again showing a how to... is that stealing?

 

[Troutlet]

Thoughts on Copying

I made pottery for 35 years and for many of those years it was my sole source of income. I have experienced this problem and seen many examples of copied material. This was all before the internet became what it is now and one can access all manner of designs and creations of others. Students imitate their teachers and this is part of the learning process. As some have mentioned, we post our pen pictures and others take a shot at trying them out to see how it has been done. We sometimes do this unconsciously. Again, this is just human nature as we learn by doing and by imitation. This is how children learn a language and how we learn to function in our culture.

Now, the problem comes into play when your craft or art is your sole source of income. It is painful and depressing to watch as others intentionally steal your ideas and then take sales and money away from you. I have a friend that came up with a unique and wonderful idea for lamps to go on the side of a house or building. His business took off and he expanded his work area and hired some people and was wildly successful for about 2 years and then suddenly the market became flooded with mass produced items that were essentially his ideas and methods. From guess where? China. Someone with money had seen his work, stole his design, and had it mass produced and marketed. It wasn't long before he was out of business!

I once heard an 'artist' say, "Steal with your eyes, not with your hands." Unfortunately this happens in any craft. In some instances not necessarily a bad thing and in others not so good.

Kirby Benson (Troutlet)

 

[Smitty37]

In comedy. To steal a joke is very bad. Just search out Joe Rogan's assault on Carlos Mencia. I would put up a you tube link but what there is, ain't safe for work. The Late David Brenner Caught a "kid" doing his act called him on it, then went up on stage and finished the show.
NOW if a comic uses a Premise similar to another; ie. Parenthood, Spouses, Kids, that is acceptable it is something that really is unavoidable. That is to say, If you take three to five people here in IAP. give them the same kit, they can come up with their version.

NOW after 96 replies (holy crap is this one of the largest?)
IS it Copying or stealing if you watch a You Tube Channel where the presenter is in fact showing how to make.
OR you purchase a Video of say Tim Yoder, or Richard Raffin Again showing a how to... is that stealing?

Milton Berle was known as a joke thief He was called the Thief of Bad Gags (a name which he gave himself). Of course you might not be old enough to remember "Uncle Miltie" the country's first TV Superstar.

 

[TurnaPen]

I have read through all the posts, mainly to get an overview of what was the general opinion.
I think(subjectively) that sharing techniques and ideas, and helping out others is a wonderful thing. Despite all the pros and cons, that will always continue.
The defining line (which is not so well defined), is not to steal another man's income, it is that fine line that is causing each of us to express our opinions freely (whether we agree or do not agree).
There is only one "Mona Lisa" , but plenty of prints.!
When I think of artistic talent and skill, I stand in awe of Skiprat, Toni, Jeff, and some others, I would love to have their SKILL but produce my own creations.
The recent BASH here produced some absolutely stunning pens, I want the SKILLs involved, and I want to produce my own pen.
The skills can be shared and enhanced, the artistic talent involved can only come from God.
Let's live in peace and help each other, life is short.
Amos

 

[Whaler]

Welcome to the modern day world and the internet if you post it and it is any good it may be copied. If you don't want it copied don't post it. Most everything in this world is a copy of something, sometimes with minor deviations and even improvements.
Go turn something of your own design that has never been done before and you didn't get the inspieraition from some one esles work, don't think it will happen from most.

 

[Holz Mechaniker]

In comedy. To steal a joke is very bad. Just search out Joe Rogan's assault on Carlos Mencia. I would put up a you tube link but what there is, ain't safe for work. The Late David Brenner Caught a "kid" doing his act called him on it, then went up on stage and finished the show.
NOW if a comic uses a Premise similar to another; ie. Parenthood, Spouses, Kids, that is acceptable it is something that really is unavoidable. That is to say, If you take three to five people here in IAP. give them the same kit, they can come up with their version.

NOW after 96 replies (holy crap is this one of the largest?)
IS it Copying or stealing if you watch a You Tube Channel where the presenter is in fact showing how to make.
OR you purchase a Video of say Tim Yoder, or Richard Raffin Again showing a how to... is that stealing?

Milton Berle was known as a joke thief He was called the Thief of Bad Gags (a name which he gave himself). Of course you might not be old enough to remember "Uncle Miltie" the country's first TV Superstar.

Ohhhh yeah he was notorious, Bob Hope was said to have a bounty on Berle for the gags Berle stole from him.

 

[Smitty37]

In comedy. To steal a joke is very bad. Just search out Joe Rogan's assault on Carlos Mencia. I would put up a you tube link but what there is, ain't safe for work. The Late David Brenner Caught a "kid" doing his act called him on it, then went up on stage and finished the show.
NOW if a comic uses a Premise similar to another; ie. Parenthood, Spouses, Kids, that is acceptable it is something that really is unavoidable. That is to say, If you take three to five people here in IAP. give them the same kit, they can come up with their version.

NOW after 96 replies (holy crap is this one of the largest?)
IS it Copying or stealing if you watch a You Tube Channel where the presenter is in fact showing how to make.
OR you purchase a Video of say Tim Yoder, or Richard Raffin Again showing a how to... is that stealing?

Milton Berle was known as a joke thief He was called the Thief of Bad Gags (a name which he gave himself). Of course you might not be old enough to remember "Uncle Miltie" the country's first TV Superstar.

Ohhhh yeah he was notorious, Bob Hope was said to have a bounty on Berle for the gags Berle stole from him.

tHE "Thief of Bad Gags" name came as a response to Hope's accusations that Berle stole his jokes.