Do you apply it to your whole head? :wink::biggrin::usflag: Seeking copyright protection for newly developed anti-whine suppository medication.
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copying work, yes you copycat.
- Thread starter edstreet
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edstreet
Member
Perhaps what I should have added in my original post was this:
There are a number of examples we can come up with to justify the need to copy others.
In the broad sense we are all copying each other as we are all 'pen turners'.
However, the real meaning I feel may have been lost, that was the 'turning point'. At what level of copying is it no longer good and healthy but becomes problematic, unhealthy, immoral, unjust and overall 'bad'.
There are a number of examples we can come up with to justify the need to copy others.
In the broad sense we are all copying each other as we are all 'pen turners'.
However, the real meaning I feel may have been lost, that was the 'turning point'. At what level of copying is it no longer good and healthy but becomes problematic, unhealthy, immoral, unjust and overall 'bad'.
Krash
Member
Probably when an exact copy is produced then you pronounce it to be your own idea or creation, possibly trying to indict the original to elevate your own. That introduces the concept of intent.
Wildman
Member
Since many of us buy the same woods, plastics and pen kits from the same vendors not sure about copying. Like to think majority of us all victims of simultaneous design.
Not sure many people here today will remember Eagle. Eagle made some very interesting pen blanks. He loathed telling anyone how he did it, because did not like copiers. His brutal honesty got him suspended or kicked off many message boards. He advocated developing your own style and not being afraid to try. I admired the man's talents, outlook on life and pen turning.
I also agree a lot of what he had to say. If you want to step out of the world of simultaneous designed pens go for it! Develop your own style!
Besides Eagle, have seen too many outstanding creative & innovating pen blanks produced by other pen turners here. Some have been very gracious sharing their procedures with us, some have not. I appreciate just looking at your creative & innovating pen blanks are amazing. Thanks for sharing!
Not sure many people here today will remember Eagle. Eagle made some very interesting pen blanks. He loathed telling anyone how he did it, because did not like copiers. His brutal honesty got him suspended or kicked off many message boards. He advocated developing your own style and not being afraid to try. I admired the man's talents, outlook on life and pen turning.
I also agree a lot of what he had to say. If you want to step out of the world of simultaneous designed pens go for it! Develop your own style!
Besides Eagle, have seen too many outstanding creative & innovating pen blanks produced by other pen turners here. Some have been very gracious sharing their procedures with us, some have not. I appreciate just looking at your creative & innovating pen blanks are amazing. Thanks for sharing!
Dan Hintz
Member
You're asking a question that can only be answered by an individual, and that answer will have anywhere from zero to complete agreement from any other random person. It's an opinion, so trying to categorize the answer as black and white will get you nothing but frustration. You (via Toni) have received a personal shock to the system from someone recreating an item, and you're looking to make sense of it all... you have to accept that life doesn't work that way.
First and foremost, you have to define what a "copy" is, and I will bet a shiny new nickel that you will not get everyone to agree on an exact definition. Is it looks? If so, to what level of detail? Is it material? If so, does it matter if two different materials look the same? I could easily create a pen that looks identical to someone without a microscope and micrometer in their back pocket... but merely picking the two pens up, writing with them, etc. can/will show a tremendous difference.
As I'm sure you know, there are laws regarding Intellectual Property Rights. If you're looking for facts you should probably contact an attorney in the field. Here, most likely you'll receive semi-informed opinions or copy/paste replies.
Wildman
Member
When conversation among crafters gets into the area of copying, intellectual property rights, patents or copyright law discussions get stupid fast!
Why? Not sure anyone here can afford an attorney to defend them against someone copying, stealing their intellectual property, infringing on their patent or copyright you are talking federal courts. Most attorneys will not even entertain defending you!
Go look at the last survey poll asking how much you made last year? If you are one of those pen turners making 5, 6, or 7 figures a year making and selling pens you are definitely a big fish in a small pond. Doubt any attorney's will take your case to a federal court.
Knock-offs (copies) only need minor changes to sink your case. We are talking pen making here so forget intellectual property, patent, and copyright violations.
Majority of those cases mentioned get settled out of court, only the millions and billions of dollar cases go to trial.
Why? Not sure anyone here can afford an attorney to defend them against someone copying, stealing their intellectual property, infringing on their patent or copyright you are talking federal courts. Most attorneys will not even entertain defending you!
Go look at the last survey poll asking how much you made last year? If you are one of those pen turners making 5, 6, or 7 figures a year making and selling pens you are definitely a big fish in a small pond. Doubt any attorney's will take your case to a federal court.
Knock-offs (copies) only need minor changes to sink your case. We are talking pen making here so forget intellectual property, patent, and copyright violations.
Majority of those cases mentioned get settled out of court, only the millions and billions of dollar cases go to trial.
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Ed, we unfortunately live in an age when morals have become relative, we've moved to the point where there are no absolutes when it comes to what is morally right. That being the case I couldn't even attempt to answer your question.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
That is one o those "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" type of issues.
edit in: As Smitty implies, the "turning point" will differ from person to person.
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edstreet
Member
The questions posed was to be based on *YOU* and where you stood on the matter, no one else, just you.
This actually has nothing to do with Toni nor does it have anything to do with me. I posted the original and the follow up more as a curiosity and not based on any current events, i.e. redskins.
And that is exactly what I was asking for. Also this is *NOT* a situation that came up, this was just a personal question for the each member of the group.
NewLondon88
Local Chapter Leader
I won't rehash what's already been said.. I think people know where I
stand when it comes to intellectual property and I know that many don't
agree with me. But I do think there's a vast difference between developing
a product and bringing it to market only to have it copied (and then sold
right back in the same venue where they got the idea in the first place) vs
seeing something you like and emulating it. So I'll only make a couple of
points that I didn't see anyone make yet. (perhaps I missed them)
Do you recall anyone EVER saying "Gee.. I developed XYZ Widgets
and now there's three people copying them and undercutting my price. I'm
so flattered!" ?
Why is it that the people who think the creators should be flattered seldom
seem to be the same people that create something original themselves?
Why do so many people think that taking someone else's idea is 'sharing' ?
Too often I see variations on "If you don't want people to steal your
ideas, don't post them in the forums" I don't understand that logic..
It sounds too much like "If you didn't want me to peep in your windows,
you shouldn't have left the ladder in the garage."
I always thought the forums were where your friends congregated. I've
learned differently now, and that's one of the reasons I don't come here as
much as I used to.
I think that "f you don't want it stolen, don't post" also goes
hand in hand with "Why haven't we seen Joe Smith posting anything
lately?"
I think the answer is simple. He accepted your terms.
stand when it comes to intellectual property and I know that many don't
agree with me. But I do think there's a vast difference between developing
a product and bringing it to market only to have it copied (and then sold
right back in the same venue where they got the idea in the first place) vs
seeing something you like and emulating it. So I'll only make a couple of
points that I didn't see anyone make yet. (perhaps I missed them)
Do you recall anyone EVER saying "Gee.. I developed XYZ Widgets
and now there's three people copying them and undercutting my price. I'm
so flattered!" ?
Why is it that the people who think the creators should be flattered seldom
seem to be the same people that create something original themselves?
Why do so many people think that taking someone else's idea is 'sharing' ?
Too often I see variations on "If you don't want people to steal your
ideas, don't post them in the forums" I don't understand that logic..
It sounds too much like "If you didn't want me to peep in your windows,
you shouldn't have left the ladder in the garage."
I always thought the forums were where your friends congregated. I've
learned differently now, and that's one of the reasons I don't come here as
much as I used to.
I think that "f you don't want it stolen, don't post" also goes
hand in hand with "Why haven't we seen Joe Smith posting anything
lately?"
I think the answer is simple. He accepted your terms.
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Dick Mahany
Member
I had the pleasure of attending the AAW symposium in San Jose last year. There were many esteemed, famous artisans and I was humbled to be able to see their work first hand and then attend individual seminars.
Nearly every one of them is a true artist and their work stands alone without peers, yet they collectively shared one common trait. They are so confident of themselves, yet so willing to share their techniques, that they went into painstaking details on how they do what they do. Why, because they love to perpetuate the art and the craft, yet they know that they are at the top of their field and don't worry about copycats since their work stands out on its own merit. Many of them challenged us to try something based on their skills and find a new or different avenue to explore!
I was expecting elitism, perhaps snobbery, but came away absolutely amazed with their freedom of sharing and encouragement. Wish I could see the same in this instance.
Nearly every one of them is a true artist and their work stands alone without peers, yet they collectively shared one common trait. They are so confident of themselves, yet so willing to share their techniques, that they went into painstaking details on how they do what they do. Why, because they love to perpetuate the art and the craft, yet they know that they are at the top of their field and don't worry about copycats since their work stands out on its own merit. Many of them challenged us to try something based on their skills and find a new or different avenue to explore!
I was expecting elitism, perhaps snobbery, but came away absolutely amazed with their freedom of sharing and encouragement. Wish I could see the same in this instance.
OK My Personal Take
OK Ed you said "The questions posed was to be based on *YOU* and where you stood on the matter, no one else, just you"
The answer for me is this---every pen I have ever turned is probably a "copy" of something that someone else has made.
That being said, I will personally never copy something akin to what Toni R or John U or Gary N or many other people has done - I named those three because I have bought items from all of them. Perhaps this is simply because I don't want to put that much work into a pen, I don't attempt to make pens for a large profit and I have no curiousity about how they do it. But, at any rate I wouldn't do it myself.
However while each of their works may be somewhat unique, it is not identified on the piece itself as their work. In addition they are selling in a mass market where they cannot possibly fill the demand for the products they offer. Hence I do not think it is immoral or unethical for someone else to move into that market, nor do I think, marketing their products as they do, that they should have any expectation of not being copied if they are successful. That is Economics 101 in a free market society.
You might or might not agree with me but I personally do not think Art (where the artist is not identified on each piece) is sold in a mass market no matter how good it is. The market they are selling in is a commodity market so in my opinion they are selling a commodity. Pen Blanks....thousands sold every day in hundreds of places, by hundreds of sellers - if anybody comes up with something that sells, someone else will probably try to get in on the action. And that, like it or not is the way it works.
OK Ed you said "The questions posed was to be based on *YOU* and where you stood on the matter, no one else, just you"
The answer for me is this---every pen I have ever turned is probably a "copy" of something that someone else has made.
That being said, I will personally never copy something akin to what Toni R or John U or Gary N or many other people has done - I named those three because I have bought items from all of them. Perhaps this is simply because I don't want to put that much work into a pen, I don't attempt to make pens for a large profit and I have no curiousity about how they do it. But, at any rate I wouldn't do it myself.
However while each of their works may be somewhat unique, it is not identified on the piece itself as their work. In addition they are selling in a mass market where they cannot possibly fill the demand for the products they offer. Hence I do not think it is immoral or unethical for someone else to move into that market, nor do I think, marketing their products as they do, that they should have any expectation of not being copied if they are successful. That is Economics 101 in a free market society.
You might or might not agree with me but I personally do not think Art (where the artist is not identified on each piece) is sold in a mass market no matter how good it is. The market they are selling in is a commodity market so in my opinion they are selling a commodity. Pen Blanks....thousands sold every day in hundreds of places, by hundreds of sellers - if anybody comes up with something that sells, someone else will probably try to get in on the action. And that, like it or not is the way it works.
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Timebandit
Member
I have to respond to this because i think my reply in this thread, not necessarily by you or anyone specific, might be taken the wrong way. I implied that i encouraged everyone to copy my work. And i do, beause i really dont care, it is flattering to me. I am sharing that. I make pens, i dont make blanks, molds, vacumn chambers, bushings, or any other product that i sell to make a profit to the penturning community or the general public. I dont do art shows, so i have no competition there. I may come up with something original some day, who knows, and ill show it off here when i do, but it will still just be a pen. My remark was only reffering to my situation and maybe anyone else in it. I understand if you make a special blank, like seamus, or the great molds that you make, or any other product that you guys make and sell on here or at art shows or just in general that has nothing to do with pen making. Im sure if i made a product like you guys i wouldnt like someone stealing my ideas. Just wanted to make that known.
But, im also like someone else here who commented. I like to make things mysef. Not because i think anyones prices are inflated or anything else. I just like to make things mysef. Some things not, like seamus coins, i just dont have the patience for that. But i did try feather blanks, snakeskin, and shell blanks at one point and was gonna do watch parts, before i switched to the "dark side" of penturning. I dont make them to sell to pen makers, but only to make pens to sell. I get pride out of saying that i made that blank, not bought it from someone else and i just turned it. Again this is not for profit from the selling of the blank or anything else for others to use, for my own personal use. I guess im a coppier, in the artistic sense, not the mass produce product profit sense. I have some of your great molds and I wish you and the others well in your ventures.
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seamus7227
Member
seamus7227
Member
I simply would like others to respect my choice as to whether or not i would like or not like to share any or all specifics about the blanks i make. I cant tell you how many times people have prodded me time and time again about sharing my technique with the world. This is of course in regards to the tru-quarter™ blanks, not the snakeskin stuff. Its the stuff that has somewhat driven me away from the active status i used to be. And i really dont care how many people want to say that i'm whining, IM NOT, so get over it. Anyway, thats my opinion.
Semus, I have to admit that how you do it is one of the things I'm curous about. I don't think I've ever asked but I can assure you that if I do it will not be because I intend to copy your work. I think that as a repeat customer, I am more than happy to just let you do it. Actually I'm really only curious about part of the process (How you get those LBJ sandwiches thin enough. If you do the cutting with a scroll saw, I can only say your are pretty d*** good at it and have a lot more patience than I have.
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Dan Hintz
Member
I think a lot more of us than like to admit are curious about how something is made... it's the natural curiosity of man.
On one of the islands I visit during my cruises (might be St. Marteen, I'll have to pay more attention my next trip), there's a guy who sits outside scrollsawing coins, silverware, etc. He's quick! A quarter goes down in 10-15 minutes, and everything is by hand, of course. He's also using a full-thickness quarter. Sanding a coin down to 1/4 of its original thickness would not only speed the cutting process, but give it the flexibility to bend without breaking.
But like you said, I'm (mostly) content with letting other people do the work. I may make one some day just to prove to myself I can, or convince myself I have all of the process kinks worked out, but I won't be trying to compete with another blank maker.
edstreet
Member
I ran into an episode recently involving a trademark item, the discussion went something like this.
This plays out far to frequently.
What you saw was exactly what the hosting org wanted attendee's to see. What you did *NOT* see is these same members who were freely giving out info bending over backwards to freely give super detailed info to stalkers who wanted to be them, because NO ONE does that or wants that situation to happen to them or others. Stalkers who are obsessed fans who does everything they can to imitate, copy, produce, sell and pass themselves off as that person. A person who is producing cheap knockoff's of their work and selling it to the public as the artist's work. The reason you did not see this is because *NO ONE* wants that to happen to them.
Many do not worry about copycat's as they have not seen a copycat and how destructive they can be, nor given it much thought. Having seen the destructive powers of a stalker first hand and how devastating it can be to an artist anyone will very quickly change their tune.
The other note worthy entry about this post is this. Typically when you have low participation interest, low population and the like you will see more and more people super eager to share the nitty gritty details like this in hopes of attracting more people into the field so it can grow (this is the mission of AAW btw). We to have seen this very same thing here on IAP. However, we also have seen things become stagnant with several making false claims of "nothing new to develop, explore, invent or use" These are the non-creative, the hopeless and the same one's who will be knocking off your work because they are starving for something new, something to bring them to the next level and something to push them ahead in the rat race and they do not care what happens to others or to the community.
Also worth noting, AAW is a large outfit who has rules and a formal setup, a 501(C)(3) and a staff; While IAP is more mob rule and group think mentality. Also groups like AAW (among others) collectively frowns upon copycats. What they encourage is individual expression in that medium, as seen in the original post that I took the liberty to bold, highlight and drastically increase the font size.
Also if you were to ask the AAW what they thought about IAP, you would be told to keep all the drama over on IAP as AAW does not want it over there and it's not welcomed in any manner.
If you do a search here on IAP (something that is a foreign concept to most I feel) you will quickly find there are countless post after post dealing with techniques, methods, applications, guides, detailed detailed and detailed. Not only will you find one method you will find MULTIPLE methods. So yes you do have the same thing going on as well.
Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.
This plays out far to frequently.
What you saw was exactly what the hosting org wanted attendee's to see. What you did *NOT* see is these same members who were freely giving out info bending over backwards to freely give super detailed info to stalkers who wanted to be them, because NO ONE does that or wants that situation to happen to them or others. Stalkers who are obsessed fans who does everything they can to imitate, copy, produce, sell and pass themselves off as that person. A person who is producing cheap knockoff's of their work and selling it to the public as the artist's work. The reason you did not see this is because *NO ONE* wants that to happen to them.
Many do not worry about copycat's as they have not seen a copycat and how destructive they can be, nor given it much thought. Having seen the destructive powers of a stalker first hand and how devastating it can be to an artist anyone will very quickly change their tune.
The other note worthy entry about this post is this. Typically when you have low participation interest, low population and the like you will see more and more people super eager to share the nitty gritty details like this in hopes of attracting more people into the field so it can grow (this is the mission of AAW btw). We to have seen this very same thing here on IAP. However, we also have seen things become stagnant with several making false claims of "nothing new to develop, explore, invent or use" These are the non-creative, the hopeless and the same one's who will be knocking off your work because they are starving for something new, something to bring them to the next level and something to push them ahead in the rat race and they do not care what happens to others or to the community.
Also worth noting, AAW is a large outfit who has rules and a formal setup, a 501(C)(3) and a staff; While IAP is more mob rule and group think mentality. Also groups like AAW (among others) collectively frowns upon copycats. What they encourage is individual expression in that medium, as seen in the original post that I took the liberty to bold, highlight and drastically increase the font size.
Also if you were to ask the AAW what they thought about IAP, you would be told to keep all the drama over on IAP as AAW does not want it over there and it's not welcomed in any manner.
If you do a search here on IAP (something that is a foreign concept to most I feel) you will quickly find there are countless post after post dealing with techniques, methods, applications, guides, detailed detailed and detailed. Not only will you find one method you will find MULTIPLE methods. So yes you do have the same thing going on as well.
Also sadly I am somewhat saddened and ashamed that we have not heard from the admin, Jeff, on this topic.
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Ed, I don't belong to AAW. I do belong to other wood working organizations. That being said - I do know that symposiums are generally held for the purpose of SHARING information, both with others in the field and (sometimes not too often) the general public. AAW in fact states its mission: "our mission to provide education, information, and organization to those interested in turning wood." My emphasis.
The Vendor booths are typically there to provide information and probably are mostly company's who sell wood working tools showing off their latest offerings. Or, they maay be demonstration booths. I say that because I have attended many symposiums and conferences in my field as, a presenter, a panal member, and as an attendee. My expectation would be for a woodworkers symposium to be about the same format.
The 501(c)(3) just says they are a not for profit organization and says nothing about size or purpose. It's just the non-profit version of a 501(K) pension plan.
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sbell111
Member
Just so I understand the point of your post, is it correct that you want Jeff to step in and stop people from sharing their methods?
FYI
Just for information here is the IAP Mission Statement.
Mission Statement:
The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.
A site policy deals with reporting suspected copyright infringement.
Just for information here is the IAP Mission Statement.
Mission Statement:
The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.
A site policy deals with reporting suspected copyright infringement.
edstreet
Member
That is not what I said nor implied.
sbell111
Member
Then what are you saying??? You seem to be upset that people share methods and then you opine that Jeff should do something about it.
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edstreet
Member
Actually the topic of this thread is about input, not action. But thank you for confirming the real reason that Jeff and co are not more frequent posters and share things on this site.
P.s. If you think I am upset over any of this you really are out in left field and not even remotely with the program.
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I just figured it out !!!!
You two are actually having an affair and all the head-banging is just a ruse so we don't suspect the truth....
You two are actually having an affair and all the head-banging is just a ruse so we don't suspect the truth....
edstreet
Member
I just figured it out !!!!
You two are actually having an affair and all the head-banging is just a ruse so we don't suspect the truth....
Skippy, since you are in the EU and may not be aware of on goings on this side of the pond I will fill you in some.
This thread was actually started due to a recent lawsuit of a major magnitude. It went to the highest court in the land and it involves copyright protection. The final verdict was released last week it did bring up many questions. While mostly in the tech sector. The other major factor was the recent trademark blowup over the Redskin's which turned ugly in another thread.
Fast forward a few days, on another discussion group that I lurk in there was a huge blow up on stealing ideas and copyrights etc.. in the art sectors. That got me to wondering about pen making so I posted this thread. I was mostly wanting to hear input on what people thought and where they stood on various issues and where the group majority of posters took the subject.
Supreme Court rules against Aereo in Internet TV fight This should get you started in the recent SCOTUS ruling.
mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
I can't fathom why Jeff would have any reason to enter into this thread... It's amusing enough just to follow it... :tongue: Have your fun!
Bean_Counter
Member
Why must we feed the troll
edstreet
Member
You really think that because I have not posted that you don't have my attention?
You should know that I don't post much if at all on subjective topics for obvious reasons.
mark james
IAP Collection, Curator
ED... Maybe this is the "drama" that you alluded to in a reference to AAW...
I agree! Why add mindless drama to IAP ?
I think we can be better than this silly bickering. The original post/discussion was fine, why degrade it to this level?
Let it go and learn whatever you can from the comments from your post.
I agree! Why add mindless drama to IAP ?
I think we can be better than this silly bickering. The original post/discussion was fine, why degrade it to this level?
Let it go and learn whatever you can from the comments from your post.
Holz Mechaniker
Member
While Jeff does make some of the coolest, and awe inspiring blanks. Not to insult him but he is really not worth it because well hit is but a one man operation. Now if he was the owner of a multi million dollar operation then it would be more feasible to go and start reproducing his designs and flood the market and minimum cost.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
I'm curious Ed, which statement is true and which is not? Was this thread started "...as a curiosity and not based on any current events, i.e. redskins" or was this thread "actually started due to a recent lawsuit of a major magnitude. It went to the highest court in the land and it involves copyright protection. The final verdict was released last week it did bring up many questions. While mostly in the tech sector. (It seems to me that a Supreme Court Ruling made last week would be a current event) The other major factor was the recent trademark blowup over the Redskin's which turned ugly in another thread. (I thought you said that the Redskins issue had nothing to do with your asking the question) I'm just trying to figure out what really prompted this thread?
edstreet
Member
Both are true statements.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Got it! It's not based on any current events i.e.Redskins but it is based on a current event : A Supreme Court Ruling made last week and on the Redskins issue. Thanks for clearing that up.
edstreet
Member
Still incorrect.
Not based on any event but there have been several events that parallels this topic recently which got me to thinking about this thread, so I posted it. The thread was to be more broad spectrum and not related to any specific event.
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Yet you posted that it was related to a specific current event.
I guess it is the part where you say "This thread was actually started....."
No biggie, just wondered about the conflicting messages. It is a interesting topic.
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lwalper
Member
If it's anything like recipes, change it a little and it becomes yours. The pens I see posted here are fantastic, inspiring. If I try to reproduce something similar it will become mine, for it won't be the "same". It may have aluminum or brass inserted in the wood/plastic, or a concealed clip attachment similar to others I've seen, but the actual pen will be "mine". It's a one-off individual item impossible to exactly reproduce. If I sell one, good for me. If you sell one, good for you. If we're standing in adjacent booths and you sell one I might ask, "Why are they selling and mine aren't?" Maybe I made junk and you've got nice stuff.
Lock this thread. Let's talk about pens.
Lock this thread. Let's talk about pens.
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