Celtic knot take 2

[jttheclockman]

If you cut all the way through then there is no kerf per se right? As long as all of the infills are the same size it shouldn't matter should it?

OK I did a quick mock up and it is still drying so will post photos later in the day but to this point, Ken is correct again. Having only done about 5 or 6 knots in my pen turning career and I usually follow the no cut through rule, I was not sure about this statement. Nothing like trying the experiment yourself. The kerf infill material must match the kerf of the blade. No matter if you cut partial way or all the way through. That now has been established. What happens and I saw on the second cut right away, is that the ribbon or infill material do not line up when joined back together. It is not that the knot is off center it just not there. When I post photo you will see exactly what I mean and I also may even turn it round to see the design. Who knows maybe it would be a new design. I will also show a photo of my glue up set up and a little tip that will help if doing any segmenting work where clamping needs to be done. That will be my wrap up on this topic. Learned a few things and hopefully added a few things that may help. Been a long time since we had an exercise like this here. I did this on the UK site a few years ago when I challenged them to figure out the changing color in the knot like I shown in the red and yellow sierra. That struck quite a good conversation and experimenting. The groans after the secret was revealed were heard across the pond. Anyway till later happy turning.

 

[ramaroodle]

In Ken we trust!

@jththeclockman I'd still like to see that green blank you posted on the first page after you turn it. That was an interesting looking little gem with "crispy" lines. Gonna turn a few knots this weekend just to burn the process into my gray matter.

 

[jttheclockman]

In Ken we trust!

@jththeclockman I'd still like to see that green blank you posted on the first page after you turn it. That was an interesting looking little gem with "crispy" lines. Gonna turn a few knots this weekend just to burn the process into my gray matter.

Andy I am working on the cap for the pen so when I get complete I will show it.

Now to sum up my input into this thread I will show the photos of the blank I made up using the cut all the way through and using an infill other than size of blade. I used a tablesaw to cut blank with a 3/32" blade. The blank is maple and the infill is 1/4" walnut. I show in first photo my system of clamping these type blanks with the use of an aluminum angle to keep 2 sides as straight as possible. The tip I wanted to include was to make this work you need to cut the end of infill the same angle as the blank. In this case I cut this so called knot using a 60 degree sled in that I wanted to stretch it out knowing the thick infill will take up alot of the space. As it turns out Ken was right in that the infill still needs to match the kerf of the blade. Now we have proof and it is documented here forever. This knot turned out to be nothing but a mess and no good use at all. I first show various sides of blank glued up and right away you see the misalignment when glued back together. Now I have no capabilities to make videos so I turned the blank down to see it in its round form and it is as bad. I show various sides while on the lathe. I will keep the photos in thumbnail size so as to not overwhelm the thread. But you get the jist.

To sum this up it was fun to banter about the long standing segmented Celtic Knot. I believe all info ever needed to make these is now in this thread so future generations can be linked to it. As I said earlier I learned a few things and hopefully added a few details too. Have done about 5 or 6 over time I will stick to the cut partially way through method but now know when I need to cut all the way through what needs to be done. All those who want to try, have fun and enjoy the journey. Just another segmented blank. If I can be of help just ring. Happy turning and be safe.

 

[KenB259]

Thanks John for giving us the visuals. I enjoyed the conversation as well and I'm glad we got it all hammered out.


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[ramaroodle]

Not to beat a dead forum but JT proved Ken's other truth. Even though the knot is totally f**ked it still has the over-under!

It is the PERFECT knot for this conversation.

-over under
-no glue lines
-no gaps
-insert has got to be exactly the same as the kerf regardless of the cut method you use

It's a work of art!

Which all comes full circle and definitely answers the question in @duderubble's original post.....

Anyone got a tutorial on making the centers line up. I think I drilled pretty centered. I'm thinking maybe the veneer sandwich needs to match the saw kerf exactly or maybe something else. It looks cool if you don't look too close.

Plain walnut with maple and walnut veneer on an antique brass cigar.

I need to make a youtube video on how to make a perfect Celtic knot on a pen.

Our work here is done!

 

[KenB259]

I have an idea about all this..... stay tuned.


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[jttheclockman]

I do not have capabilities or else I would have done something too. This really is not rocket science. If you can repeat your cuts accurately you can make as many knots in a row as your blank will allow. Just keep adding spacers. I do that when I make my scallops. The 4 over and 4 under has been proven here that the 1-opposite 2 will give that effect. Done. Proven that sequential numbers 1-2-3-4 will give an odd band weather over or under depends on how you turn the finished blank. Done. Proven here that exact thickness of infill is a must for either cutting the blank partial or cutting all the way through. Done. Avoiding glue gaps can be because the infill or the slots are not flat and even. Now I will point this out here because this is for the OCD people. I want to stress this because it is important. Unless you are cutting all the way through the blank and clamping the blank every which way then there will never be those gaps. But if you are cutting partially through the possibility arises for gaps because of the following:: The infill material is not pure exact flat (good luck with that one) the cut slots have a jagged surface such as when using a bandsaw (correctable) or there is runout in arbor or blade when cutting the slots, (non correctable easily) This last one people overlook. You can do everything right but if you have runout in arbor or blade itself it will not cut a straight slot and thus small gaps may appear. Now if using wood or paper or things of that nature it is easier to make up for gaps because those materials will give some when pushing in slots. They will compress. But you must be careful of not allowing for glue because you can starve the glue joints. It is a fine line. Now here is where I differ with most folks that make these and that is clamping the ends to crush that center knot and avoid gaps. You run the risk of bowing the blank. The next time you do this lay the blank on a flat board and check to see if the blank lays flat as it did in normal state. If it is bowed you now introduced a misalignment in your next cut and multiply that by 4 and who knows what the knot looks like. Now there are those like Ken who have mastered his tools and precision seems to be his thing so more power to him. I take this out of my equation by not clamping the ends and make up for any imperfections with colored epoxy. It has served me well this far. If using metals and acrylics for infill then compression is out of the question and the exact material thickness becomes even more critical but should be easier to control.

Other than that lets see those Celtic Knots. Mix it up some and use various materials or layers. Spectraply is a good choice of material.

 

[KenB259]

What I wanted to try didn't work out. My in fill was .204 thick. So I thought if I moved my cut by .102 that it would work out. It did not. Going forward , I will just match my kerf, like I always have.


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[eteska]

Amazing pointers for someone who has just made his first few knots and looking to improve. First two pens from before reading this thread and third pen and bottle opener after having reading and trying to follow the listed procedures.

Many improvements but plenty of room for growth.



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[Dieseldoc]

Good start, now you can try more segmenting.

 

[Dieseldoc]

What I wanted to try didn't work out. My in fill was .204 thick. So I thought if I moved my cut by .102 that it would work out. It did not. Going forward , I will just match my kerf, like I always have.


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KEN : check you PM

 

[Richard92]

Andy I am working on the cap for the pen so when I get complete I will show it.

Now to sum up my input into this thread I will show the photos of the blank I made up using the cut all the way through and using an infill other than size of blade. I used a tablesaw to cut blank with a 3/32" blade. The blank is maple and the infill is 1/4" walnut. I show in first photo my system of clamping these type blanks with the use of an aluminum angle to keep 2 sides as straight as possible. The tip I wanted to include was to make this work you need to cut the end of infill the same angle as the blank. In this case I cut this so called knot using a 60 degree sled in that I wanted to stretch it out knowing the thick infill will take up alot of the space. As it turns out Ken was right in that the infill still needs to match the kerf of the blade. Now we have proof and it is documented here forever. This knot turned out to be nothing but a mess and no good use at all. I first show various sides of blank glued up and right away you see the misalignment when glued back together. Now I have no capabilities to make videos so I turned the blank down to see it in its round form and it is as bad. I show various sides while on the lathe. I will keep the photos in thumbnail size so as to not overwhelm the thread. But you get the jist.

To sum this up it was fun to banter about the long standing segmented Celtic Knot. I believe all info ever needed to make these is now in this thread so future generations can be linked to it. As I said earlier I learned a few things and hopefully added a few details too. Have done about 5 or 6 over time I will stick to the cut partially way through method but now know when I need to cut all the way through what needs to be done. All those who want to try, have fun and enjoy the journey. Just another segmented blank. If I can be of help just ring. Happy turning and be safe.

This as been a really great thread to follow have enjoyed ready your input. Hope to see your video when it's done.
Thanks

 

[KenB259]

Amazing pointers for someone who has just made his first few knots and looking to improve. First two pens from before reading this thread and third pen and bottle opener after having reading and trying to follow the listed procedures. View attachment 241551View attachment 241552View attachment 241553View attachment 241554
Many improvements but plenty of room for growth.



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Your latest results are great, much improvement there.


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[jttheclockman]

Eric, that is quite an improvement. Glad that the members here were able to put together at least a thread that has alot of info about the famous Celtic Knot. Now there is much more that can be added but this gets those who want to try or just improve on their accuracy of doing them, down the right path. Hopefully when the topic comes up there will be those that link this thread. Glad to have been a small part in the conversation here. Continued success with the segmenting. But beware it can become addictive.