Are emperor pens really worth it?

[Ulises Victoria]

So, I have seen several bottom of the line kits labeled as 24kt gold. What are they?

 

[Smitty37]

Quoting Smitty:

You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold.

I AM wrong only if every 22kt kit gets tested and they all are really 22kt--then I am wrong about THAT assertion.

My actual assertion is that we do NOT KNOW what we are getting.. That assertion would only be WRONG, if EVERY kit was exactly what it is labeled. You do recall your supplier "clarified" they were selling you white gold, when that was NOT what they originally called it.
THAT incident alone would make my assertion correct--you were NOT getting what you were TOLD you were getting.

Ed

Wrong is wrong Ed and you are wrong.


The rest of your statement you are just trying to say that unless we test every single kit that comes from every single manufacturer for proper gold content you can never be wrong....believe that if it makes you feel good.


The issue with the White Gold being called Platinum is an entirely different issue, and if I had asked the manufacturer what his alloy was before I ordered the kits, he would have been happy to tell me. The Platinum kits were named based on color not alloy and were actually named by a USA company because that is what they were selling them as. It was not deceit on the part of the Chinese. Incidently it was not Dayacom or any other Taiwanese based company who provided the kits.

 

[Smitty37]

What you are looking at might or might not be a quality control issue. The "flaws" you are talking about might or might not be 'out of specification'. To know you'd have to see the specification. Is the specification adequate for the purpose - again you don't know without seeing the specification....I am assuming that no one here has actually seen the specification. Does that mean you have to be satisfied with the product - no it doesn't. But, it might mean that you are assigning a higher standard than the manufacturer does - in that case you will never be happy with the product.

I'm sure that Dayacom like most mass producers uses statistical quality control measures which are used successfully all over the world to assure the buyer is getting what they think they are getting. Do they assure that every single item meets spec - no they don't, but they can assure that the products will come very close to 100% compliance.


And they can be adjusted, in electronic components we expected 99.99% compliance on many of the parts - no more than 1 bad one out of 10,000 and some critical components we looked for 99.999% compliance. Our suppliers met those requirements, but not for free.

 

[alparent]

My take on these "High End" pens his that the are not "High End" at all. They are just more intricate. More bling! So they give illusion of better quality. They are surely more costly to produce do to the castings, but this same level of intricacy combined with the average quality control is more prone to defects. (I'm pretty shure there is no higher quality control standards for these kits then the other ones. Or we would not see all this inconsistency.)

For this reason I present these pens as my more intricate pens, not my "High End" pens. If I want to present something as "High End" I go with something with a very high quality control standard. (Mostly hand made stuff.)

Remember, bling dose not equal quality!

You can put all the chrome you want on a FORD, it won't make it a Mercedes. (And most Mercedes don't even have much chrome!)

Same goes for pens for that matter. Most "High End" pens don't even have a lot of bling.

Are these pens worth it? As fare as I'm concerned, I sell them for what they are, pens with more bling, and a lot of people like them. And remember that people are going to look at them before buying....if they don't like the x10 loop defects.....they don't buy it! I'm not forcing them. But I don't try to push them as "High End" pens. That way I can have a clean conscience. Being honest about my products is #1 for me.

OK I'm done ..... probably more then you wanted to read.......sure more then I wanted to write!

 

[Smitty37]

My take on these "High End" pens his that the are not "High End" at all. They are just more intricate. More bling! So they give illusion of better quality. They are surely more costly to produce do to the castings, but this same level of intricacy combined with the average quality control is more prone to defects. (I'm pretty shure there is no higher quality control standards for these kits then the other ones. Or we would not see all this inconsistency.)

For this reason I present these pens as my more intricate pens, not my "High End" pens. If I want to present something as "High End" I go with something with a very high quality control standard. (Mostly hand made stuff.)

Remember, bling dose not equal quality!

You can put all the chrome you want on a FORD, it won't make it a Mercedes. (And most Mercedes don't even have much chrome!)

Same goes for pens for that matter. Most "High End" pens don't even have a lot of bling.

Are these pens worth it? As fare as I'm concerned, I sell them for what they are, pens with more bling, and a lot of people like them. And remember that people are going to look at them before buying....if they don't like the x10 loop defects.....they don't buy it! I'm not forcing them. But I don't try to push them as "High End" pens. That way I can have a clean conscience. Being honest about my products is #1 for me.

OK I'm done ..... probably more then you wanted to read.......sure more then I wanted to write!

That is a question that we always answer for ourselves on everything we buy. If the answer is 'no' we generally only buy if there is a compelling reason to do so. If we buy in a package and change our mind about the worth after the package is open, we'll take it back because it didn't meet our expectations.

From a manufacturing perspective quality control means just one thing - conformance to specification. You and I might differ with the manufacturer on what his specification ought to be but generally (unless he publishes them which most pen kit makers do not) speaking can't tell if they are meeting spec.

 

[edstreet]

That is a question that we always answer for ourselves on everything we buy. If the answer is 'no' we generally only buy if there is a compelling reason to do so. If we buy in a package and change our mind about the worth after the package is open, we'll take it back because it didn't meet our expectations.

From a manufacturing perspective quality control means just one thing - conformance to specification. You and I might differ with the manufacturer on what his specification ought to be but generally (unless he publishes them which most pen kit makers do not) speaking can't tell if they are meeting spec.

So you are conceding to the fact that maybe they are using what they call 22kt gold but used 20% purity rather than the 90% we here in North America are use to. Or the fact that since they do NOT mark the product in any way their standards may be gold like plating or gold paint plating.

Thank you for understanding the specification limits of implied vs actual.

Therefore your own validation of it must be true because I read it on the Internet seriously needs re-evaluated.

Long story short don't be sheeple.

 

[edstreet]

My take on these "High End" pens his that the are not "High End" at all. They are just more intricate. More bling! So they give illusion of better quality. They are surely more costly to produce do to the castings, but this same level of intricacy combined with the average quality control is more prone to defects. (I'm pretty shure there is no higher quality control standards for these kits then the other ones. Or we would not see all this inconsistency.)

For this reason I present these pens as my more intricate pens, not my "High End" pens. If I want to present something as "High End" I go with something with a very high quality control standard. (Mostly hand made stuff.)

Remember, bling dose not equal quality!

You can put all the chrome you want on a FORD, it won't make it a Mercedes. (And most Mercedes don't even have much chrome!)

Same goes for pens for that matter. Most "High End" pens don't even have a lot of bling.

Are these pens worth it? As fare as I'm concerned, I sell them for what they are, pens with more bling, and a lot of people like them. And remember that people are going to look at them before buying....if they don't like the x10 loop defects.....they don't buy it! I'm not forcing them. But I don't try to push them as "High End" pens. That way I can have a clean conscience. Being honest about my products is #1 for me.

OK I'm done ..... probably more then you wanted to read.......sure more then I wanted to write!

Thanks for your post. I have maintained since post #1 that what you said and for some reason many just don't understand. They seem to hear 'high end' and think 'high end quality', it could just as we'll mean 'high end bling', 'high end sucker', 'high end profit margin', 'high end user' etc....

We have also proven that high quality is lacking as same problems exist across multiple units.

 

[Smitty37]

That is a question that we always answer for ourselves on everything we buy. If the answer is 'no' we generally only buy if there is a compelling reason to do so. If we buy in a package and change our mind about the worth after the package is open, we'll take it back because it didn't meet our expectations.

From a manufacturing perspective quality control means just one thing - conformance to specification. You and I might differ with the manufacturer on what his specification ought to be but generally (unless he publishes them which most pen kit makers do not) speaking can't tell if they are meeting spec.

So you are conceding to the fact that maybe they are using what they call 22kt gold but used 20% purity rather than the 90% we here in North America are use to. Or the fact that since they do NOT mark the product in any way their standards may be gold like plating or gold paint plating.

Thank you for understanding the specification limits of implied vs actual.

Therefore your own validation of it must be true because I read it on the Internet seriously needs re-evaluated.

Long story short don't be sheeple.

No I am not conceding that. Karat is a definition of purity. US Gold Coins used a % rather than K to specify purity. 22K gold is by world wide (nearly) definition a certain % purity (11/12th or 91.6666667%). Any decrease in "purity" results in a decrease it the K rating. 22K gold exceeds the 90% purity you speak of. 20% purity would be in the range of 5K.

Statistical quality control methods are more than implied - they are, in fact, for most mass produced items more accurate than 100% visual inspection. To call them implied is just another way for you to attempt to say "no matter what I say I will never be wrong?" As I said you can believe that if you want.


Just what is that about? I have known what 22K gold was since long before the internet was even a gleam in anyone's eye. My knowledge of statistical quality control stems from my career not from the internet.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Add your name and date & yes you can frame these:biggrin:​

​

 

[Smitty37]

I am put to mind of John Wayne's line regarding dead horses from his movie The Searchers.

Add your name and date & yes you can frame these:biggrin:​

View attachment 98258​

 

[edstreet]

No I am not conceding that. Karat is a definition of purity. US Gold Coins used a % rather than K to specify purity. 22K gold is by world wide (nearly) definition a certain % purity (11/12th or 91.6666667%). Any decrease in "purity" results in a decrease it the K rating. 22K gold exceeds the 90% purity you speak of. 20% purity would be in the range of 5K.

Statistical quality control methods are more than implied - they are, in fact, for most mass produced items more accurate than 100% visual inspection. To call them implied is just another way for you to attempt to say "no matter what I say I will never be wrong?" As I said you can believe that if you want.

Just what is that about? I have known what 22K gold was since long before the internet was even a gleam in anyone's eye. My knowledge of statistical quality control stems from my career not from the internet.

So more Ad Hoc speculation not based on imperical data. The only info you cite is US based. Last I checked dayacom was not in the US. Also I have yet to see any lab reports, or any information from the company to certify things, nor any markings, stampings, lettering or any type material what so ever to claim that 22kt gold is used OTHER than a marketing advertisement on their website. Last I checked most company were very proud to list high purity values and went out of their way to display it, when companies does *NOT* that throws up red flags to me.

I'm sure that Dayacom like most mass producers uses statistical quality control measures which are used successfully all over the world to assure the buyer is getting what they think they are getting.

This is an assumption and you know what they say about assumptions. For all we know they are subcontracting out to various villagers who is making this stuff in the village square. I have not seen anyone mention photo's, video or first hand accounts of factory tours either.

The Platinum kits were named based on color not alloy and were actually named by a USA company because that is what they were selling them as.

So here to it could "look like 22kt gold" but not real '22kt gold'. Again with lack of markings, stampings or any lit from the manufacture it could be anything, and be 100% legit.

You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold. First, because it is the importer who is responsible but if an exporter was found to be substituting something for gold, they would also feel repercussions from US Customs.

I hate to nitpick but can you show me USC that gives US Customs control over component quality control? I cant seem to locate it, my google-fu must be broken today or something.

 

[edstreet]

So, I have seen several bottom of the line kits labeled as 24kt gold. What are they?

As some of the people posted earlier pricing to get things plated that does very well indeed bring up the lower end kits, i.e. the sub $5-10 kits that claim to be gold plated. It would seem that the plating is worth more than the underlying meta itself is. It also makes me wonder if they use something else to plate with to keep cost down to provide lower prices.

 

[edstreet]

This I would have to see. There is no way feasible you could clean up to perfection at that level. Not saying it can not be done but you do not have the equipment to do that.

I think you are making invalid assumptions, both about my ability as well as my workshop.

If I were to put a stainless ring into a fiber laser rotary, I could create a centerband that would blow those away. Send away a batch to be plated. What we have pictures of above are cast, but that's not the only way to create components. Using my method, I could create a kit that would be orders of magnitude better quality than the cast stuff above, and I would likely charge a couple hundred $s just for the kit. Anyone using such a kit should expect several $k for a pen created from it as they could hand it to a purist with a loupe and say "See? It has crisp edges, fine detail, etc.".

The idea isn't to clean up an existing kit... you can only pick and choose between multiple kits to put together the lesser of multiple evils. The idea (in my mind) is to create something from scratch that makes those kits look like just what they are... cast. Who is the guy who makes stainless kits here in the U.S. Marksman, I believe? Same idea, but taking it farther than just metal lathe work. I'm willing to bet the edges on the Marksman kit are "perfect" when compared to the cast kits from PSI, Woodcraft, etc.

Perhaps I am and I do apologize if I am in error. I was speaking in terms of equipment tolerances as with the magnification you can see things like tooling runout, chisel precision, micro alignment issues, pitting, gouging, marks and the like; all which would take a great deal of very very expensive equipment to render precise and flawless viewing in that macro region.

 

[jttheclockman]

I can not believe this topic has gone on for 10 pages with most of it being copy and print. You people have nothing better to do????? If you don't like the quality of pen kit DON"T BUY IT case closed. If a company is selling them and making money from them they must be doing something right. I laugh when people think the pen world revolves around this little group and I mean little. Tolerances and using magnifiers to make a pen. Man where is the fun???? Don't like the quality make your own. Have some fun. This hobby is suppose to be fun. No anal--izing.

Go ahead blow up my responce and copy and paste it 10000000000 times.

 

[Smitty37]

I can not believe this topic has gone on for 10 pages with most of it being copy and print. You people have nothing better to do????? If you don't like the quality of pen kit DON"T BUY IT case closed. If a company is selling them and making money from them they must be doing something right. I laugh when people think the pen world revolves around this little group and I mean little. Tolerances and using magnifiers to make a pen. Man where is the fun???? Don't like the quality make your own. Have some fun. This hobby is suppose to be fun. No anal--izing.

Go ahead blow up my responce and copy and paste it 10000000000 times.

I'm retired --- and no right now I don't have anything better to do. It is raining and I'm taking a break from getting a thousand kits ready to send back for replating. And because friendly arguing might not be fun to you, I kind of enjoy it.

 

[jttheclockman]

Friendly arguing usually turns sour. I bet no answer was gotten out of any of this. But if you 2 want to play footsies have at it. Lets see who can copy and paste the most. The winner gets a pisspoor Emperor kit maybe a slimline would be more appropriate.

Man I wish it were raining here. 4 weeks of heat and humidity is taking its toll.

 

[Smitty37]

No I am not conceding that. Karat is a definition of purity. US Gold Coins used a % rather than K to specify purity. 22K gold is by world wide (nearly) definition a certain % purity (11/12th or 91.6666667%). Any decrease in "purity" results in a decrease it the K rating. 22K gold exceeds the 90% purity you speak of. 20% purity would be in the range of 5K.

Statistical quality control methods are more than implied - they are, in fact, for most mass produced items more accurate than 100% visual inspection. To call them implied is just another way for you to attempt to say "no matter what I say I will never be wrong?" As I said you can believe that if you want.

Just what is that about? I have known what 22K gold was since long before the internet was even a gleam in anyone's eye. My knowledge of statistical quality control stems from my career not from the internet.

So more Ad Hoc speculation not based on imperical data. The only info you cite is US based. Last I checked dayacom was not in the US. Also I have yet to see any lab reports, or any information from the company to certify things, nor any markings, stampings, lettering or any type material what so ever to claim that 22kt gold is used OTHER than a marketing advertisement on their website. Last I checked most company were very proud to list high purity values and went out of their way to display it, when companies does *NOT* that throws up red flags to me. Talk about Ad Hoc statements not based on emperical data....just when did you "check" this and how many companies were in your sample over what period of time did you conduct your experiment?

I'm sure that Dayacom like most mass producers uses statistical quality control measures which are used successfully all over the world to assure the buyer is getting what they think they are getting.

This is an assumption and you know what they say about assumptions. For all we know they are subcontracting out to various villagers who is making this stuff in the village square. I have not seen anyone mention photo's, video or first hand accounts of factory tours either.

The Platinum kits were named based on color not alloy and were actually named by a USA company because that is what they were selling them as.

So here to it could "look like 22kt gold" but not real '22kt gold'. Again with lack of markings, stampings or any lit from the manufacture it could be anything, and be 100% legit.

You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold. First, because it is the importer who is responsible but if an exporter was found to be substituting something for gold, they would also feel repercussions from US Customs.

I hate to nitpick but can you show me USC that gives US Customs control over component quality control? I cant seem to locate it, my google-fu must be broken today or something.

Actually you love to nitpick. US Customs has the power to sieze imports for lots of reasons. If a foreign company is found to be defrauding US buyers, shipments from that company can be barred from entry into the USA wherever they come from.

 

[Smitty37]

So, I have seen several bottom of the line kits labeled as 24kt gold. What are they?

As some of the people posted earlier pricing to get things plated that does very well indeed bring up the lower end kits, i.e. the sub $5-10 kits that claim to be gold plated. It would seem that the plating is worth more than the underlying meta itself is. It also makes me wonder if they use something else to plate with to keep cost down to provide lower prices.

Why? You've been around long enough to know that saying "24K Gold" is not a marketing positive. And many low end kits have multiple finishes available why would they lie about the one considered to be the least durable rather than just drop it? Many sellers here won't touch it with a stick.

 

[edstreet]

has anyone ever sent off some parts to a lab or what not to actually see what materials are in there? That would be an interesting result.

 

[Dan Hintz]

While digging for other info, I came across this site with some interesting tidbits (future reference):
artisan plating.com - measuring layer thickness on gold plated surfaces, units of measurement, thickness, decorative applications, surface hardness, engineering applications

If we really cared about all of this, the answer to most questions are as simple as going to a local jewelry store and asking if they'll test a few pieces on their stone (bring in a nice bottle of wine as a thank you... a 6-pack of Bud may not cut it here). They can apply the various strengths of acid, testing on the stone each time, and make an easy determination of the plating's purity. Done deal, no more supposition.

 

[edstreet]

Also while digging up information today I came across this video. Yes it is from a VENDOR and what they mention parallels with what I have said.

[ytmini]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SajN21KF95U[/ytmini]

Pen Kits with Gold Plating by Berea Hardwoods offer you a high quality real gold plated pen - YouTube

They list gold colored enamel instead of real gold.

 

[Smitty37]

Berea is also a manufacturer of pen kits, not just a vendor. That is an advertising video that names no names of anyone doing what Berea claims that "some others" do. They don't say who, how many or whether those that do are misrepresenting what they sell.

All Berea is really saying is that they use real 24K gold in "most" of their Gold platings - which few of us really doubted anyway. But by your thinking, they could be just 'saying' that to mislead us too.


But, you saw it on the internet so it must be true. It falls into the same catigory as you saying "they" might be using enamel - not very well backed up.

 

[edstreet]

Berea is also a manufacturer of pen kits, not just a vendor. That is an advertising video that names no names of anyone doing what Berea claims that "some others" do. They don't say who, how many or whether those that do are misrepresenting what they sell.

All Berea is really saying is that they use real 24K gold in "most" of their Gold platings - which few of us really doubted anyway. But by your thinking, they could be just 'saying' that to mislead us too.


But, you saw it on the internet so it must be true. It falls into the same catigory as you saying "they" might be using enamel - not very well backed up.

Was that not the company who did some testing and found out some of their suppliers were not using gold but something else? They did mention on the video that

some pen kit manufactures provide gold looking pen parts, not real gold

So wonder if they are on IAP here or do I need to call them up and ask them to come on IAP and post on this thread? I bet they could shed some serious light on things.

 

[jttheclockman]

Get the Dead Horse out please, someone. Put this silly nonsense to bed already. Is there a shaking of the head smiley here. I will use this one a few times

Love to see some of your fabulous blanks that you put on this terrible kits. I want a real laugh. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Get those magnifying loops out on those babies, yea. Lets pick that apart. How about it????

 

[Smitty37]

Get the Dead Horse out please, someone. Put this silly nonsense to bed already. Is there a shaking of the head smiley here. I will use this one a few times

Love to see some of your fabulous blanks that you put on this terrible kits. I want a real laugh. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Get those magnifying loops out on those babies, yea. Lets pick that apart. How about it????

John you might as well give up....or stop following the thread...we're having fun.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[edstreet]

Actually the thread has been very educational, informative and has good historical value.

 

[Smitty37]

Berea is also a manufacturer of pen kits, not just a vendor. That is an advertising video that names no names of anyone doing what Berea claims that "some others" do. They don't say who, how many or whether those that do are misrepresenting what they sell.

All Berea is really saying is that they use real 24K gold in "most" of their Gold platings - which few of us really doubted anyway. But by your thinking, they could be just 'saying' that to mislead us too.


But, you saw it on the internet so it must be true. It falls into the same catigory as you saying "they" might be using enamel - not very well backed up.

Was that not the company who did some testing and found out some of their suppliers were not using gold but something else? They did mention on the video that

some pen kit manufactures provide gold looking pen parts, not real gold

So wonder if they are on IAP here or do I need to call them up and ask them to come on IAP and post on this thread? I bet they could shed some serious light on things.

I don't ever recall seeing that they had tested any of their competitor's kits. They have been manufacturing their own for a long time. And they don't claim in the video to have done any testing.

I do seem to recall that they claimed something about doing some testing of gold kits for durability (not gold content) based as I recall on how long they stood up to buffing. Again they did not name any specific manufacturers product but their own.

I think they have folks who watch this forum and they have a presence here as a well respected producer of Pen Component Sets. Many of us have done some business with them. And several vendors offer their products.

 

[Smitty37]

The FTC regulation, applies to jewelery etc. but there is some question whether pen parts qualify as jewelery. We had discussed this in a thread before and never did find out for sure whether the FTC standard applies.

At any rate my supplier says they plate 24K gold at .04mm to .06mm - I think they might have misplaced the decimal point because they are saying 40 to 60 microns and they might be meaning 4 to 6 microns which would be almost double the FTC requirement for heavy gold plate I'm asking them to clarify.

Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".

(2) An industry product or part thereof, on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces, by any process, a coating, electroplating, or deposition by any means, of gold or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness that is of substantial thickness,3 and the minimum thickness throughout of which is equivalent to one-half micron (or approximately 20 millionths of an inch) of fine gold,4 may be marked or described as "Gold Plate" or "Gold Plated," or abbreviated, as, for example, G.P. The exact thickness of the plate may be marked on the item, if it is immediately followed by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (as, for example, "2 microns 12 K. gold plate" or "2µ 12 K. G.P." for an item plated with 2 microns of 12 karat gold.)

 

[edstreet]

The FTC regulation, applies to jewelery etc. but there is some question whether pen parts qualify as jewelery. We had discussed this in a thread before and never did find out for sure whether the FTC standard applies.

At any rate my supplier says they plate 24K gold at .04mm to .06mm - I think they might have misplaced the decimal point because they are saying 40 to 60 microns and they might be meaning 4 to 6 microns which would be almost double the FTC requirement for heavy gold plate I'm asking them to clarify.

It is good to see you looking and asking questions.

 

[Parson]

I've made one of these kits and didn't think I'd ever sell it at any price (but I finally did). Quality concerns aside, everyone aside from the collector who bought it commented that they thought it was very heavy and the design very VERY "Asian" and over-the-top gaudy. They never bluntly told me this, but when they saw it and put it down and said, "that's interesting" I asked them for their plainspoken opinion and that's what I heard.

It's a pity more high end pen kits aren't available that have a tasteful design. This issue has actually pushed me into the time consuming and not very appreciated kitless penmaking scene. (Well, other penturners and kitless guys appreciate the efforts, but customers don't for the most part!)

 

[crabcreekind]

I've made one of these kits and didn't think I'd ever sell it at any price (but I finally did). Quality concerns aside, everyone aside from the collector who bought it commented that they thought it was very heavy and the design very VERY "Asian" and over-the-top gaudy. They never bluntly told me this, but when they saw it and put it down and said, "that's interesting" I asked them for their plainspoken opinion and that's what I heard.

It's a pity more high end pen kits aren't available that have a tasteful design. This issue has actually pushed me into the time consuming and not very appreciated kitless penmaking scene. (Well, other penturners and kitless guys appreciate the efforts, but customers don't for the most part!)

Well said! I stick to mainly simple design kits just because of this. That reason and mainly those dang engraved bands suck to hold on to for more then 2 seconds while writing.

 

[jttheclockman]

Get the Dead Horse out please, someone. Put this silly nonsense to bed already. Is there a shaking of the head smiley here. I will use this one a few times

Love to see some of your fabulous blanks that you put on this terrible kits. I want a real laugh. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: Get those magnifying loops out on those babies, yea. Lets pick that apart. How about it????

John you might as well give up....or stop following the thread...we're having fun.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I am giving up Smitty.

Actually the thread has been very educational, informative and has good historical value.

Really Ed. Maybe to you. You and Smitty could have just as well as PM each other. I am sure you will take all the info you gained here and put it into your next 100 pens. I will look for it.

 

[Smitty37]

The FTC regulation, applies to jewelery etc. but there is some question whether pen parts qualify as jewelery. We had discussed this in a thread before and never did find out for sure whether the FTC standard applies.

At any rate my supplier says they plate 24K gold at .04mm to .06mm - I think they might have misplaced the decimal point because they are saying 40 to 60 microns and they might be meaning 4 to 6 microns which would be almost double the FTC requirement for heavy gold plate I'm asking them to clarify.

It is good to see you looking and asking questions.

They did mean 4 to 6 microns 5 microns corresponds to the FTC standard for "heavy gold plate" and also to a plated jewelry table I saw that include pens and said typical gold plating on pens was 2.5 to 5 microns which corresponds to 50 to 100 micro inches. I suspect the the typical would be 4 microns and you'd pay extra to get over that - I am sure there is no great trick to controling the thickness of plating to a "knats eyebrow". Their base is copper for the tips bands and end caps and manganese steel for clips. From previous informatation the plating thickness corresponds to other materials I've asked about, namely gun metal and black chrome...Gold TN, Black Ti and Rhodium are much thinner and that corresponds to the recommended thickness for those platings I've seen from American Plating companies.

Several of the finishes we use tend to get brittle if plated too thick and develop cracks, both gold and black TN do, both chrome and black chrome do, and to some extent Rhodium also. I have gleaned that information reading several American plating sites and looking at their recommendations and why they make them. They often have different recommendations depending on the size and use of the item to be plated.

 

[edstreet]

Ok, I bought an imperial to try a few hunches. There have been a few speculations as to how certain things have been introduced, meaning the 'problem' areas that I noted.

So the hunch was get another 'high end' pen from another series with similar layout and see if I could find the same problems or something to indicate HOW the manufacturing was performed. This would mean that yes the 'problem' areas that I noted was created from the manufacturing techniques vs as designed or as original artwork in the emperor line.

Perhaps the most notable area was the center band. Well that is the second area that I picked up anyways, first being the end cap designs.

Here we see both center bands side by side. I noted the gaps to pay note of. Yes this is visible with the naked eye and I was easy able to pinpoint this. What we see is a ever so slight cant on a counter clockwise direction for both.

Moving on.

The end cap we do see the same gap but it does blend and it is hard pressed to really see it, but it is there, just the angles do indeed match good.

Here we see the end cap side by side. What we have here is a very notable ring on the emperor which is the 'gap' between the gold and the chrome housing which does stick out like a sore thumb and stands out with the pattern. While we do have a less notable gap on the imperial it actually blends in with the design.

This is the body end cap, same as the other cap but much more noticeable.

Did you see it? Probably not, so try this.


...

..
What we have here is the design consumes flaw by the discontinuity of the leaf, while on the emperor it sticks out like a sore thumb due to the parallel lines and 90 degree angles. This does beg the question of how dirty are the molds when they are used. The high spots on the insert is the low spots on the molds, where dirt etc builds up. Probably why the problem is less on the larger cap is larger size = larger crevice in the mold = easier to clean out with the equipment they are using.

The clip is the same layout but less blocky on the imperial. Which I will get to later down.

Here we have side by side, same mirror image layout on the 2 different lines. At the stupidly small photo limits on this site it is very hard to tell some things, so....

This might make it crystal clear.

The text 'parallel lines' is in conjunction with the 'less blocky in the imperial' remark above. The emperor uses 90 degree angles to induce a drastic contrast which gives it that 'gawdy' appeal, also gives that jump out at you look when viewing it with other pens, it is a break in uniformity and causes you to focus more attention on it, thus influencing buyer bias towards the emperor.

On the imperial the lack of parallel and 90 degree lines forces the pattern to appear mundane and flat.

- concluding this it seems as if the angle difference on the outer ring of the caps is intentional by design while the cant of the center band is likely the manufacturing process precision. Yet the center band is one of the main focal points on a pen.


Going on from this with the continuity flow of the emperor design when paired with 2 types of blanks, say a flat less descriptive blank the patterns should stick out and yield that 'gawdy' look; while a blank rich in parallel lines and angles should consume the trim designs and get lost in the overall pattern. The flat blank would likely rely on the trim to sell the pen while the rich blank would take on a whole new 4th dimension and yield rich complex combinations with the right lighting.

So I have to ask. Of everyone here who has sold emperors, i.e. multiples, what type of blank pattern was on those that sold. Also on the flip side, what type of blank pattern took the longer time to sell. My money is on those blanks with complex angles, curves and some parallel lines.

 

[Smitty37]

I suspect that some is design and some is manufacturing, in anything some designs of similar objects are just easier to get repeatable good results. I sold Jr Emperor's for awhile, and in several hundred sales never had a buyer return one or even complain about any quality issue, if that holds true for other sellers, it means that even at $60.00 to $75.00 or so per kit the buyers feel that they are getting fair value for doller.

It could just be that those who would be more critical don't buy them anyway. It seems to me that if someone is skeptical that any pen kit is worth that much money he/sshe would both tend to be more critical if they paid that much and less likely to buy the kit to begin with.

Just FYI, when I look at mine (I have 2 Emperors and 1 Jr Emperor - no Imperials.) My eye in all three is drawn to the blank, not particularily to any part of the hardware. The same is true on the much cheaper hardware used on most of the 100 or so pens in my collection. The hardware is there and if it's wrong for the blank I notice it much more than when the blank and hardware flow well.

 

[Dan Hintz]

I didn't realize there was any speculation left... these are cast pieces, and as such are going to have flaws due to the speed at which they're cranked out.

 

[edstreet]

I didn't realize there was any speculation left... these are cast pieces, and as such are going to have flaws due to the speed at which they're cranked out.

Interesting how you quickly pick up something very negative and completely ignore the questions that is ask, same as earlier with shop equipment and the precision claim that you made.

It sounds like you have some knowledge of the companies workflow so do you mind sharing with the rest of us or is it just snipe speculation from the background?

 

[Dan Hintz]

Interesting how you quickly pick up something very negative and completely ignore the questions that is ask, same as earlier with shop equipment and the precision claim that you made.

It sounds like you have some knowledge of the companies workflow so do you mind sharing with the rest of us or is it just snipe speculation from the background?

Do you relish in being a complete jerk to everyone who does not immediately bow down to you, ed?

My comment wasn't made to start a war, it was to point out that I thought we had already answered any of the questions originally raised. And I believe I answered in detail the question that was asked about my shop, my tools, and my capabilities.

Go bait someone else, you blowhard... either stick to the facts and debate the issue at hand, or ignore my posts, as you seem incapable of accepting any viewpoint but your own.

 

[jttheclockman]

NICEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I think someone is just showing off their macro camera abilities as if no one else has them. But hey lets make the photos even bigger. Love to see the inside of the material and see the little particles that they are made of. That would be cool.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Dan Hintz]

But hey lets make the photos even bigger. Love to see the inside of the material and see the little particles that they are made of. That would be cool.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Now John, are you trying to goad me into putting a pen into my electron microscope? :wink: :biggrin: