Are emperor pens really worth it?

[ren-lathe]

Okay folks,
I have always thought that the originator of the design might be an artist for instance David Broadwell that designed the Penn State Sceptors. The folks that take what they designed and added to them are more artisans. the definition is:
ar·ti·san

[ahr-tuh-zuhn]
noun 1. a person skilled in an applied art; a craftsperson.

2. a person or company that makes a high-quality or distinctive product in small quantities, usually by hand or using traditional methods: our favorite local food artisans.


adjective 3. pertaining to an artisan or the product of an artisan; artisanal: artisan beer.

 

[Donovan]

Originally Posted by bwftex
Does someone have aMontblanc, Visconti , Aurora or high end European pen they can take some close ups of so we can see how they look? I was never much interested in pens until I started making them so my personal experience with fine pens (other than the ones I make has been limited. I have a friend who has a Visconti that set him back a few grand. Its is a marvelous pen. It absolutely reaks of class and quality and writes like a dream.

I do have a few Montblanc pens(9 in total) and I have looked at them with a 20 x loupe and yes they do have imperfections(not visible just by looking with the naked eye) but does that bother me, not at all. When I look at a pen there is a few things that matters to me. appearance, weight and how does it fit in my hand when writing.
Donovan

 

[edstreet]

Originally Posted by bwftex
Does someone have aMontblanc, Visconti , Aurora or high end European pen they can take some close ups of so we can see how they look? I was never much interested in pens until I started making them so my personal experience with fine pens (other than the ones I make has been limited. I have a friend who has a Visconti that set him back a few grand. Its is a marvelous pen. It absolutely reaks of class and quality and writes like a dream.

I do have a few Montblanc pens(9 in total) and I have looked at them with a 20 x loupe and yes they do have imperfections(not visible just by looking with the naked eye) but does that bother me, not at all. When I look at a pen there is a few things that matters to me. appearance, weight and how does it fit in my hand when writing.
Donovan

I would like to ask what imperfections did you see and any way to provide photo's of this?

Interesting to note is when I first saw the emperor pen in person (my first fyi) most of these problems that I posted about was very apparent to me.


The way I see it now is there are probably 2 basic approaches that people take when they view the pen and see these imperfections. First is they think 'oh wow, hand made and i can even see some of the imperfections in the metal so this person is really really good' and second 'imperfections in the pen so pass sorry i will look elsewhere esp at that price.'


Also I now question the plating and wondering something, given the mass of the surface area and the price of the pen, if that was real 22k gold plating that was used the pen cost would be greater. So given that what is the content in these platting. I seriously doubt that it does indeed contain 22k gold, or even rhodium for that matter.

 

[Smitty37]

Because that's what pens are for - writing. A pen that doesn't write is sort of useless.

Again you missed the boat. Please actually read the thread instead of trolling on random lines. We have a very good thread going here and I for one would not like to see it ruined by this.

No Ed, I have not missed the boat. You asked a question in your post. I gave you an answer to that question.

The random line appeared in your post - if you didn't want a response to it you should not have introduced it.

You are not a moderator at this site, and you have no say in what goes into my reply's to your posts.

 

[Smitty37]

Dave, your kit appears to be in significantly better shape than Ed's... the imperfections you point out are relatively minor, and I would feel significantly more comfortable selling that set of bits in a higher end pen ($1k?). Beyond that price point, however, I truly would want perfect bits/baubles... likely something of my own construction.

One problem with that Dan, is that most of us don't possess the skills and/or equipment to make any better than what we can buy in kits. It sounds like you do, and I envy you - but even if I once could have gotten that good, my eyes are not sharp enough and my hands not steady enough to do it now.

 

[Smitty37]

I would like to point out that at the level and detail of the photo's that I take, macro 1:1, any flaw, problems, big small or minute will show up in gory detail. From casual observation you may be very hard pressed to see some of these problems with the naked eye. Also with this level and amount of detail you can clearly see everything and everything does indeed have imperfections.

One person did point out to me today that the original insert, bands and the like may have been artwork done by hand, i.e. clay or similar. Then like coin making that object reduced in size and mass produced. This could clearly explain many aspects that I noticed.

One think that I would be curious to hear is from other people who have emperor's (oh btw this one is a junior) and the second thing would be great for me to see other emperors and possibly the bulk of things I noticed is limited to this one kit and not widespread in the entire series.

'over priced' does come to mind greatly and often on this. I first ask myself, why the cost, the plating itself could contribute to the bulk, also fee's to the designer(s) possibly, higher production cost for quality and techniques I could also see. That question is still unanswered.

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

 

[edstreet]

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

 

[Smitty37]

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

That is just wrong. I won't bother going into all the reasons why.

 

[crabcreekind]

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Not to say youre wrong. But how do you know that it is not real plated gold? And how do you know that the plating of 5 little tiny pieces of metal with 22kt gold is more expensive than $75 or whatever the kit costs? Are you saying that all kits are just painted? You know you can buy plating kits and do it yourself.

 

[Haynie]

This is an interesting thread. I think we all know and understand that if you look close enough at anything you will see flaws. IMO if you are going to look that close then you deserve to see what you were looking for. In the fine art photography world this is called print sniffing. I guess it could be called pen sniffing here.

Ed even said none of this would be visible to the naked eye. Maybe, but I think anything out of round would be noticed.

As a side note, in the images provided that showed the component installed on a blank, I found my eyes drawn to flaws in the fit of the blank with the component, not the component itself.

What I take away from this thread is this:
If the flaw is visible to the discerning eye of the maker the hardware should not be used. If you have to get a 20x magnifier to see the flaws then they don't really matter anyway.

 

[Smitty37]

This is an interesting thread. I think we all know and understand that if you look close enough at anything you will see flaws. IMO if you are going to look that close then you deserve to see what you were looking for. In the fine art photography world this is called print sniffing. I guess it could be called pen sniffing here.

Ed even said none of this would be visible to the naked eye. Maybe, but I think anything out of round would be noticed.

As a side note, in the images provided that showed the component installed on a blank, I found my eyes drawn to flaws in the fit of the blank with the component, not the component itself.

What I take away from this thread is this:
If the flaw is visible to the discerning eye of the maker the hardware should not be used. If you have to get a 20x magnifier to see the flaws then they don't really matter anyway.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

 

[Dan Hintz]

first, what is 'perfect'? there is nothing that is perfect, everything has flaws. To what degree do you draw the line with acceptability. If you look closely at the link he provided you will see the lower band is also at a cant angle. If you look at the center band on the left you will see it looks ok, look on the RIGHT side you will notice a non parallel end. The other think is the very very first photo I posted is at most 0.25" from left edge to right edge of the photo.

I think becoming pedantic about the language used here defeats the purpose of the thread. Looking at the original finial pic and the second one posted, there is a vast difference in the quality of the engraving... to me (in this context, at least), the second one would be considered "perfect", comparatively speaking. Putting those two pens side by side, the finial engraving would be quite noticeable, and I would reject the first as poor QA. The centerband unevenness along the edge would be less noticeable, in either case.

Now, is it luck of the draw that two identical kits are vastly different in apparent quality? To a degree... though it's more a matter of poor QA at the factory. To make a kit with all "perfect" pieces, may take 10 kits and picking/choosing bits between them. If it means I feel comfortable selling 9 of those kits at $250 and one at $1k, that's better to me than all 10 at $250 each.

To me, a truly perfect kit would have no noticeable infractions, even under magnification... and I would expect to pay several $k for such a hand-crafted and QA'd pen.

 

[LagniappeRob]

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Not even close... 50 microinches is "thick" plating. At today's spot price gold is $1255/ounce. A 1 x 1 square inch of 50 uInch = 0.0158 Grams of gold. Even at 24kt that's $0.64. So even a full sized Emperor might have 2? sq inches of plating, about about a buck and quarter.

Edit - I went and looked because gold plating for ornamental reasons may be different than electronic (my background). The FTC has definitions for various terms.
Gold Flash = 7 uInch
Gold Electroplate = 7 uInch
Gold Plate = 20 uInch
Heavy Gold Plate = 100uInch

So best case is they are using "heavy gold plate" standards and that puts it as the price of a hamburger at McDonalds without fries or drink $2.50. Still FAR less than what the set costs as a whole.

 

[crabcreekind]

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Not even close... 50 microinches is "thick" plating. At today's spot price gold is $1255/ounce. A 1 x 1 square inch of 50 uInch = 0.0158 Grams of gold. Even at 24kt that's $0.64. So even a full sized Emperor might have 2? sq inches of plating, about about a buck and quarter.

Edit - I went and looked because gold plating for ornamental reasons may be different than electronic (my background). The FTC has definitions for various terms.
Gold Flash = 7 uInch
Gold Electroplate = 7 uInch
Gold Plate = 20 uInch
Heavy Gold Plate = 100uInch

So best case is they are using "heavy gold plate" standards and that puts it as the price of a hamburger at McDonalds without fries or drink $2.50. Still FAR less than what the set costs as a whole.

I was hoping someone would do the calculation. :biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

first, what is 'perfect'? there is nothing that is perfect, everything has flaws. To what degree do you draw the line with acceptability. If you look closely at the link he provided you will see the lower band is also at a cant angle. If you look at the center band on the left you will see it looks ok, look on the RIGHT side you will notice a non parallel end. The other think is the very very first photo I posted is at most 0.25" from left edge to right edge of the photo.

I think becoming pedantic about the language used here defeats the purpose of the thread. Looking at the original finial pic and the second one posted, there is a vast difference in the quality of the engraving... to me (in this context, at least), the second one would be considered "perfect", comparatively speaking. Putting those two pens side by side, the finial engraving would be quite noticeable, and I would reject the first as poor QA. The centerband unevenness along the edge would be less noticeable, in either case.

Now, is it luck of the draw that two identical kits are vastly different in apparent quality? To a degree... though it's more a matter of poor QA at the factory. To make a kit with all "perfect" pieces, may take 10 kits and picking/choosing bits between them. If it means I feel comfortable selling 9 of those kits at $250 and one at $1k, that's better to me than all 10 at $250 each.

To me, a truly perfect kit would have no noticeable infractions, even under magnification... and I would expect to pay several $k for such a hand-crafted and QA'd pen.

Dan I love that word....haven't seen it used in years. You made my day. (Lest you let your head swell - I am old and easily amused)

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/atom-ibm.jpg shows what can be done with high magnification photography....I think that picture is of about 35 atoms or so. That being the case you almost need to qualify as to how much magnification when you say "under magnification"

 

[ren-lathe]

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Sorry Ed,
1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
2 It would be false advertising if it was stated to be 22kt gold plated and a base metal was used. this is easily checked chemically. None of the importers would be willing to take the consequences. Since these cross state lines you are looking at a Federal fraud rap, class action law suit etc.

 

[LagniappeRob]

...
1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
...

Exactly! 100 uInch ~= 2 1/2 microns. The FTC required 20 uInch to be called "gold plated" is roughly 1/2 of 1 micron (about 50 cents worth @ 24kt - even less at 22 ... )

 

[ed4copies]

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Sorry Ed,
1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
2 It would be false advertising if it was stated to be 22kt gold plated and a base metal was used. this is easily checked chemically. None of the importers would be willing to take the consequences. Since these cross state lines you are looking at a Federal fraud rap, class action law suit etc.

This makes the assumption that the "importer" knows what he is purchasing. Suppose the manufacturer STATES it is 22kt gold. Name an importer who has actually CHECKED the product he is receiving.

I suspect those who purchased lead-laden toys from China did not purchase them with the label "Lots o'lead"!!:biggrin::biggrin:

Point is you don't KNOW what is being sold to you, at the importer level or at the retail level. We accept what we are told by the manufacturer as being true. "Ain't necessarily so" (from Porgy and Bess).

 

[walshjp17]

Rats! There goes my innate belief in the honesty of all humanity:bulgy-eyes::befuddled::crying:

 

[ed4copies]

sorry, John.

 

[edstreet]

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Not to say youre wrong. But how do you know that it is not real plated gold? And how do you know that the plating of 5 little tiny pieces of metal with 22kt gold is more expensive than $75 or whatever the kit costs? Are you saying that all kits are just painted? You know you can buy plating kits and do it yourself.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Not even close... 50 microinches is "thick" plating. At today's spot price gold is $1255/ounce. A 1 x 1 square inch of 50 uInch = 0.0158 Grams of gold. Even at 24kt that's $0.64. So even a full sized Emperor might have 2? sq inches of plating, about about a buck and quarter.

Edit - I went and looked because gold plating for ornamental reasons may be different than electronic (my background). The FTC has definitions for various terms.
Gold Flash = 7 uInch
Gold Electroplate = 7 uInch
Gold Plate = 20 uInch
Heavy Gold Plate = 100uInch

So best case is they are using "heavy gold plate" standards and that puts it as the price of a hamburger at McDonalds without fries or drink $2.50. Still FAR less than what the set costs as a whole.

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Sorry Ed,
1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
2 It would be false advertising if it was stated to be 22kt gold plated and a base metal was used. this is easily checked chemically. None of the importers would be willing to take the consequences. Since these cross state lines you are looking at a Federal fraud rap, class action law suit etc.

hmmm OK I do love being wrong, like in this case and I do stand corrected. I just do have a few concerning factors here to ask and hopefully one of you knows the answer.

Mil spec standard on plating ranks in terms of grade, purity, hardness and class. I am assuming here they are not using mil-dtl-45204d standards so the question is what standard are they using and what grade, purity, hardness and class is the product. In case anyone ask 'why does this matter' the answer is it relates to wear and tear over time. As previous stated class 00 being 0.00002" thick while class 6 being 0.00150" thick is a very big difference in thickness.

So far I have done minimal looking and quoting on gold plating setups and from what I have seen so far the price is based on spot price of gold on the international precious metal markets. Which means prices of these kits *SHOULD* change drastically with the cost of materials, i.e. gold. Have they? As I recall the pricing on the emperors have been fairly consistent for some time now even with the skyrocket explosion cost of gold.


The final thought for the day, being able to see WITH THE NAKED EYE several problem areas that are apparent on MULTIPLE emperor's (now that we are aware of what they are, i.e. angle of cant on the center band, out of round inserts) implies low to poor quality control. If that apparent on these areas it would be safe to assume the rest of the areas are as equally prone to the similar levels of quality control.

 

[LagniappeRob]

What do you call as changing "drastically"?

Gold hit $1908/ounce. The lowest I see is $37/ounce in 1970.

Gold cost for 2 square inches of plating at the required 20 uinches @ the $1908/ounce = $0.78. Gold at the lowest I found ($37), $0.02. Variance of 76 cents. And that's for 24kt. On a $70 Jr Emperor, that a less than 2% change from 1970 to record high price. I'm thinking they are pricing with some fluctuation in mind. Sure if gold hit $10k/ounce I bet you'd see a price increase across the board (btw, before you ask, it would then be ~$4 material cost). I just don't see the price of gold being that much of a price factor in this.

 

[edstreet]

What do you call as changing "drastically"?

Gold hit $1908/ounce. The lowest I see is $37/ounce in 1970.

Gold cost for 2 square inches of plating at the required 20 uinches @ the $1908/ounce = $0.78.

Please quote your source and the verification from dayacom that they adhere to those standards.

 

[LagniappeRob]

Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".

(2) An industry product or part thereof, on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces, by any process, a coating, electroplating, or deposition by any means, of gold or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness that is of substantial thickness,3 and the minimum thickness throughout of which is equivalent to one-half micron (or approximately 20 millionths of an inch) of fine gold,4 may be marked or described as "Gold Plate" or "Gold Plated," or abbreviated, as, for example, G.P. The exact thickness of the plate may be marked on the item, if it is immediately followed by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (as, for example, "2 microns 12 K. gold plate" or "2µ 12 K. G.P." for an item plated with 2 microns of 12 karat gold.)

 

[SteveG]

Did you have to bring in Porgy and Bess? It was going pretty good up until that!!

 

[edstreet]

Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".

(2) An industry product or part thereof, on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces, by any process, a coating, electroplating, or deposition by any means, of gold or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness that is of substantial thickness,3 and the minimum thickness throughout of which is equivalent to one-half micron (or approximately 20 millionths of an inch) of fine gold,4 may be marked or described as "Gold Plate" or "Gold Plated," or abbreviated, as, for example, G.P. The exact thickness of the plate may be marked on the item, if it is immediately followed by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (as, for example, "2 microns 12 K. gold plate" or "2µ 12 K. G.P." for an item plated with 2 microns of 12 karat gold.)

What I was driving at is yes there are many standards that we here in north america adhere to. Dayacom is not in north america and not subjected to those same standards.

It appears that no one really knows what standards they meet or if there are any standards. Which is my original post, quality.

 

[edstreet]

Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".

Sorry but I just saw something else to. You mentioned 'requires items marked as' I see no markings on the emperor of any form as to what the plating is. So by these FTC requirements that would be exempt from the purity standards no?

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I get my clips plated here in the US and the last time I did the gold surcharge over silver and Rhodium was $19.25 per 500 pieces that less than 4 cents each. I just don't see the cost of the plating being a large factor in the cost of the component set. They are the only makers of it and as the only place to get a component set as big and blingly your paying their price. Betcha their % of profit per piece is much higher than their less expensive component sets.

 

[LagniappeRob]

I was addressing 2 specific statements made:

Also I now question the plating and wondering something, given the mass of the surface area and the price of the pen, if that was real 22k gold plating that was used the pen cost would be greater. So given that what is the content in these platting. I seriously doubt that it does indeed contain 22k gold, or even rhodium for that matter.

This simply isn't the case. IF (speculation) there's 2 sq in of plate, then it would require almost 100x the US standard for gold plating to match the price of the kit.

As I recall the pricing on the emperors have been fairly consistent for some time now even with the skyrocket explosion cost of gold.

MY point was the cost of the gold itself is not that significant... 76 cents increase in the cost of the gold from 1970 to the record high per pen. That's nothing. There's just not that much gold in there.

I'm not stating anything about the quality of the kits. I've never done one... but I can show that the above statements just don't work out with the actual dollar figures even basing it on standards they'd never meet - like they would need 0.002 inch plating to = the q50 cost of the lowest kit.

 

[ren-lathe]

Those are not Dayacom's stated standards. The FTC requires items marked as "gold plated" to be 20 uInches thick, thus the "required 20 uinches".

(2) An industry product or part thereof, on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces, by any process, a coating, electroplating, or deposition by any means, of gold or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness that is of substantial thickness,3 and the minimum thickness throughout of which is equivalent to one-half micron (or approximately 20 millionths of an inch) of fine gold,4 may be marked or described as "Gold Plate" or "Gold Plated," or abbreviated, as, for example, G.P. The exact thickness of the plate may be marked on the item, if it is immediately followed by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (as, for example, "2 microns 12 K. gold plate" or "2µ 12 K. G.P." for an item plated with 2 microns of 12 karat gold.)

What I was driving at is yes there are many standards that we here in north america adhere to. Dayacom is not in north america and not subjected to those same standards.

It appears that no one really knows what standards they meet or if there are any standards. Which is my original post, quality.

Dayacom may not be in North America. BUT the importing companies are so THEY must conform to existing standards. As stated previously Berea, PSI, Craft USA, etc who is advertising theses as gold plated is not going to chance lawsuits & Federal penalties when the cost of conforming is really one of the least expensive parts of the process. To save a few pennies on the cost of a kit to loose your business & reputation is not worth it.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

These are pictures of a junior version. This pen was made about 5 years ago. It was never used and has been stored in a pen case since it was completed. To me the details on the bands look fine, but they feel sharp and scratchy. I don't find it a comfortable pen to hold or a pleasant pen to feel. I never even bothered inking it.

The bands look fine to me to my naked eye and under magnification. The ends are a different story. This is the small end.



The polished plated areas are reflecting a black background in the picturee and look dark. You can see the one area where the casting was low and did not get polished. This blemish is visible to the naked eye.

This is the large (cap) end.




To the naked eye, the large end doesn't seem as bright as the small end. It looks a little dirty. Under magnification you can see that the brass has started to oxidize. Keep in mind that this pen is 5 years old, but has never been used and has been stored in a closed case. I have to believe that had I used this pen a lot, the corrosion would be substantially worse. Probably to the point of being visible to the naked eye as green brass corrosion.

I don't like this kit at any price, but that's just me.

Ed

 

[edstreet]

These are pictures of a junior version. This pen was made about 5 years ago. It was never used and has been stored in a pen case since it was completed. To me the details on the bands look fine, but they feel sharp and scratchy. I don't find it a comfortable pen to hold or a pleasant pen to feel. I never even bothered inking it.

The bands look fine to me to my naked eye and under magnification. The ends are a different story. This is the small end.



The polished plated areas are reflecting a black background in the picturee and look dark. You can see the one area where the casting was low and did not get polished. This blemish is visible to the naked eye.

This is the large (cap) end.




To the naked eye, the large end doesn't seem as bright as the small end. It looks a little dirty. Under magnification you can see that the brass has started to oxidize. Keep in mind that this pen is 5 years old, but has never been used and has been stored in a closed case. I have to believe that had I used this pen a lot, the corrosion would be substantially worse. Probably to the point of being visible to the naked eye as green brass corrosion.

I don't like this kit at any price, but that's just me.

Ed

I am looking at the macro I took on my left monitor and the photo you took on the right monitor. A few things does stand out: Mine definitely has LDS while your has EDS (early and late die stages in lifespan)

The shiny/dull aspect seems to me to indicate non-gold but I would love for some jewelry expert to chime in here and give us the lowdown on this. I could even post a shot or 2 of some gold coins that I have that is tarnishing if need be.

It also appears that the matting edge of the insert to the cap is a different angle. Perhaps a design change or maybe die wear.

In the cap it seems both have the same problem in the valley's and in the exact same spots. This again brings up the manufacturing methods.

 

[tim self]

I've read all the posts and to answer the original question, IMHO yes. My customers love them and have never complained about the quality of the plating or design flaws. Have I ever noticed them? Not to the extent of using a Macro 1.1. Are my pens perfect? No but made to the best of my ability.

IMO, if you are concerned about customers louping them, don't make them. I've had pen snobs inspect my nibs with the loupe as many of you have. I will continue to make them and sell them for a high dollar amount because I believe the components and my work is worth it.

Smitty, call it what you like but when I have customers at my booth calling what I create ART, then that's what I consider it. It all boils down to what the person buying our product thinks, not fellow turners or artists.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I've read all the posts and to answer the original question, IMHO yes. My customers love them and have never complained about the quality of the plating or design flaws. Have I ever noticed them? Not to the extent of using a Macro 1.1. Are my pens perfect? No but made to the best of my ability.

IMO, if you are concerned about customers louping them, don't make them. I've had pen snobs inspect my nibs with the loupe as many of you have. I will continue to make them and sell them for a high dollar amount because I believe the components and my work is worth it.

Smitty, call it what you like but when I have customers at my booth calling what I create ART, then that's what I consider it. It all boils down to what the person buying our product thinks, not fellow turners or artists.

Well said "grasshopper":biggrin:

 

[Dan Hintz]

That being the case you almost need to qualify as to how much magnification when you say "under magnification"

Foe me, I think a typical eye loupe would be enough... what do they typically run, 10x? If a customer wants to put one of my pens under an electron microscope, he's free to... but I'll charge him extra for the atomic-level diamond buffing paste treatment.

 

[edstreet]

That being the case you almost need to qualify as to how much magnification when you say "under magnification"

Foe me, I think a typical eye loupe would be enough... what do they typically run, 10x? If a customer wants to put one of my pens under an electron microscope, he's free to... but I'll charge him extra for the atomic-level diamond buffing paste treatment.

This I would have to see. There is no way feasible you could clean up to perfection at that level. Not saying it can not be done but you do not have the equipment to do that.

 

[Smitty37]

There's a lot that goes into pricing - and the actual manufacturing cost on 'luxury' items is not closely related to either the wholesale or retail price. There is only one worldwide source for these particular component sets, and the manufacturer takes advantage of that, using supply and demand to determine his price. If it isn't high enough he will stop making them.

Cost of materials would be higher than the kit is sold for, thus no real 'gold' in there. It is more likely gold colored paint than anything else. Or even something similar but cheap that looks like gold. If it was real 22k gold plate then the plate cost would be equal to or above the cost of the pen kit itself.

Sorry Ed,
1 I worked in the plating industry for a few years, it is less costly than you think there is only a few microns thickness being deposited.
2 It would be false advertising if it was stated to be 22kt gold plated and a base metal was used. this is easily checked chemically. None of the importers would be willing to take the consequences. Since these cross state lines you are looking at a Federal fraud rap, class action law suit etc.

This makes the assumption that the "importer" knows what he is purchasing. Suppose the manufacturer STATES it is 22kt gold. Name an importer who has actually CHECKED the product he is receiving.

I suspect those who purchased lead-laden toys from China did not purchase them with the label "Lots o'lead"!!:biggrin::biggrin:

Point is you don't KNOW what is being sold to you, at the importer level or at the retail level. We accept what we are told by the manufacturer as being true. "Ain't necessarily so" (from Porgy and Bess).

You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold. First, because it is the importer who is responsible but if an exporter was found to be substituting something for gold, they would also feel repercussions from US Customs.
Second, because it is pretty easy to test for - you need to destroy a couple of kits but random checking of the plating would be (and probably is) easily done by the larger importers.

Third Emperor's themselves are produced in Taiwan which does NOT have a reputation for producing 'cheap Chinese imports', "Made in Taiwan" is a highly respected mark

The 2007 lead paint issue was an unrelated problem.

 

[Dan Hintz]

This I would have to see. There is no way feasible you could clean up to perfection at that level. Not saying it can not be done but you do not have the equipment to do that.

I think you are making invalid assumptions, both about my ability as well as my workshop.

If I were to put a stainless ring into a fiber laser rotary, I could create a centerband that would blow those away. Send away a batch to be plated. What we have pictures of above are cast, but that's not the only way to create components. Using my method, I could create a kit that would be orders of magnitude better quality than the cast stuff above, and I would likely charge a couple hundred $s just for the kit. Anyone using such a kit should expect several $k for a pen created from it as they could hand it to a purist with a loupe and say "See? It has crisp edges, fine detail, etc.".

The idea isn't to clean up an existing kit... you can only pick and choose between multiple kits to put together the lesser of multiple evils. The idea (in my mind) is to create something from scratch that makes those kits look like just what they are... cast. Who is the guy who makes stainless kits here in the U.S. Marksman, I believe? Same idea, but taking it farther than just metal lathe work. I'm willing to bet the edges on the Marksman kit are "perfect" when compared to the cast kits from PSI, Woodcraft, etc.

 

[Smitty37]

For those interested - prices of imported kits from China are increasing - my supplier recently announced a 10% increase, part of which is said to be related to the increases in costs of plating materials (not just gold plating). Gold plating has traditionally been the 2nd lowest in cost with Chrome being the lowest and Black Chrome being pretty close to the same.

Rhodium, has become the highest and Black Ti and Gold TN (which are both ceramics not metal) are the highest...typically they are also the thinnest platings - for reasons other than the cost of plating or plating materials.


I think it is safe to say the difference in price between most platings is not based on the cost of plating materials, it might well be based on the process though which could be why gold has been a 'cheaper' plating for years.

 

[ed4copies]

Quoting Smitty:

You ARE wrong, if it says 22K gold it is highly unlikely that it is not 22K gold.

I AM wrong only if every 22kt kit gets tested and they all are really 22kt--then I am wrong about THAT assertion.

My actual assertion is that we do NOT KNOW what we are getting.. That assertion would only be WRONG, if EVERY kit was exactly what it is labeled. You do recall your supplier "clarified" they were selling you white gold, when that was NOT what they originally called it.
THAT incident alone would make my assertion correct--you were NOT getting what you were TOLD you were getting.

Ed