Yes Leroy, that was my point..what was yours???:biggrin:
Mmmm......I rest my case, M'lord....:wink:
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Why ask for critique and comments if you don't really want them?
- Thread starter Carl Fisher
- Start date
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Yes Leroy, that was my point..what was yours???:biggrin:
Mmmm......I rest my case, M'lord....:wink:
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Dalecamino
Local Chapter Leader
When I first started posting pen photos, I would ask for C&C. It didn't take long to get exactly what I asked for.:redface: It was a bit shocking, to the point that, I tended to argue or, defend myself. which didn't help make friends with some who took the time to do as I asked. Not a good thing. Many are still here and, do make recommendations. I learned to accept C&C as constructive criticism although, IT STILL HURTS!!! Redburn!!:biggrin: I would rather feel the pain and, improve than, try and, figure everything out on my own. I'm not that smart. :redface: All that said, I would rather my C&Cs come from someone who has extended experience with the craft and, knows what they're talking about. Mike Redburn (for one) KNOWS about pen making and, I consider him a friend. Usually, when I post a pen, he lets me know if something isn't right or, I could do something else with it. I don't ask for C&C these days. It is what it is.:wink: But I know I can count on a few to tell me anyway. It's not as big of a deal I thought it was in the early stages of posting. Sort of a "Get over it" kind of thing now. FWIW
Dalecamino
Local Chapter Leader
Steven ! Is that ME LORD or MY LORD? I never picked that up. Or, I suppose it could be either.:biggrin:
Chuck, it's Muh Lord, :biggrin:
Dalecamino
Local Chapter Leader
Of course!! That's EXACTLY as I have always heard it :biggrin:
MY point is anyone (not from those places) who has ever heard anyone speak who is will find some differences - is it cockney where a simple word "wife" gets stretched to "me trouble and strife"?:biggrin:
And that's just London.
robutacion
Member
plantman
Member
George; We sail in the same type of boat, only your's sails upside down being where your located !!! I must say however, that you do keep a tight ship with your replys. Up Over Jim S
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GaryMGg
Member
Deleted double-post
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GaryMGg
Member
I joined this site a long time ago.
Before I joined, the Critiques forum was already closed but Jeff was kind enough to have the old areas available in Read-only mode.
A couple of late nights during the rainy season, I read every old post there was.
I learned a lot from those discussions which is useful to penmaking.
One other thing I learned is too many people got their shorts in a bunch.
As the forum grew, something else occurred: we became PC.
people who were close to one another would poke fun at each other and new folks who didn't know what was up would rush to one or the other's defense.
Out of that evolved, IMHO, a rather strong P.C. public persona.
Unfortunately, that persona does stifle the ability to honestly discuss things such as someone else's workmanship--or the lack thereof.
I would love to see a Critique subforum but it would have to be an opt-in only area visible only to those who opt-in and those who demonstrate, over time,
they can't take it OR can't give criticism without being outright nasty should be locked out.
It might have a chance that way.
Having said that, there's a difference between:
"Your pen is underturned at the nib" and "there are scratches in your finish"
vs.
"I think the different woods on the two barrels conflict too much to be attractive."
vs.
"That's ugly."
The first two offer something--an awful lot more valuable than NP, GJ--the last only says something about the person who posted it.
Just my $.02.
Before I joined, the Critiques forum was already closed but Jeff was kind enough to have the old areas available in Read-only mode.
A couple of late nights during the rainy season, I read every old post there was.
I learned a lot from those discussions which is useful to penmaking.
One other thing I learned is too many people got their shorts in a bunch.
As the forum grew, something else occurred: we became PC.
people who were close to one another would poke fun at each other and new folks who didn't know what was up would rush to one or the other's defense.
Out of that evolved, IMHO, a rather strong P.C. public persona.
Unfortunately, that persona does stifle the ability to honestly discuss things such as someone else's workmanship--or the lack thereof.
I would love to see a Critique subforum but it would have to be an opt-in only area visible only to those who opt-in and those who demonstrate, over time,
they can't take it OR can't give criticism without being outright nasty should be locked out.
It might have a chance that way.
Having said that, there's a difference between:
"Your pen is underturned at the nib" and "there are scratches in your finish"
vs.
"I think the different woods on the two barrels conflict too much to be attractive."
vs.
"That's ugly."
The first two offer something--an awful lot more valuable than NP, GJ--the last only says something about the person who posted it.
Just my $.02.
sbwertz
Member
MY point is anyone (not from those places) who has ever heard anyone speak who is will find some differences - is it cockney where a simple word "wife" gets stretched to "me trouble and strife"?:biggrin:
And that's just London.
Leroy, one of the funniest ten minutes of my life was in a taxi in Washington DC that I was sharing with two other soldiers from the train station back to Ft Myer. One was a guy from New Jersey, the other was from Georgia. They literally didn't speak the same language and neither could understand the other. The cabbie and I were cracking up. (That was back when cabbies actually spoke English).
Wow, that was a long time ago.....When I was in the service it was a toss up (I was from PA) whether it was harder to understand the guys from MA and ME or the ones from MS and AL. They always seemed to be speaking some foreigh language.MY point is anyone (not from those places) who has ever heard anyone speak who is will find some differences - is it cockney where a simple word "wife" gets stretched to "me trouble and strife"?:biggrin:
And that's just London.
Leroy, one of the funniest ten minutes of my life was in a taxi in Washington DC that I was sharing with two other soldiers from the train station back to Ft Myer. One was a guy from New Jersey, the other was from Georgia. They literally didn't speak the same language and neither could understand the other. The cabbie and I were cracking up. (That was back when cabbies actually spoke English).
workinforwood
Member
Yesterday i was in the hospital, had a hernia repaired. While waiting the nurse was reading me off a list of stuff, standard procedure, she says being on meds, no drinking no driving no signing documents especially financial documents, no making decisions or judgments under an impared state. i turned to my wife...that outfit looks great on you, you been working out? 
Almost had to get scheduled for a broken arm too!
Almost had to get scheduled for a broken arm too!
BSea
Member
Now THAT is funny!! :laugh:Yesterday i was in the hospital, had a hernia repaired. While waiting the nurse was reading me off a list of stuff, standard procedure, she says being on meds, no drinking no driving no signing documents especially financial documents, no making decisions or judgments under an impared state. i turned to my wife...that outfit looks great on you, you been working out?
Almost had to get scheduled for a broken arm too!
nativewooder
Member
Jeff, do you realize how many standup comedians are out of work?!!! I was rolling around laughing so hard I cracked my head on the tile!:RockOn:
nativewooder
Member
And as far as C & C, how do you do that to a picture?
tjseagrove
Member
I like Gary's idea of a separate place for critiques.
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Ok, jokes aside, I just realised from this and your other post that you really must be incapacitated
Get well soon Jeff.:doctor:
Get well soon Jeff.:doctor:
Yesterday i was in the hospital, had a hernia repaired. While waiting the nurse was reading me off a list of stuff, standard procedure, she says being on meds, no drinking no driving no signing documents especially financial documents, no making decisions or judgments under an impared state. i turned to my wife...that outfit looks great on you, you been working out?
Almost had to get scheduled for a broken arm too!
SteveJ
Member
Interesting thing about C&C. I've posted a number of my pens and asked for C&C on many of them. I've never received any criticism - which is sort of strange since I KNOW that I probably deserve some and that it would certainly make me a better turner. Now, I know I am not the most popular person on this forum, but I don't think I have offended anyone either, so it seems at times like it is a waste of time to even ask for C&C.
The most constructive comment I have gotten was after a PITH, where I had to ask my partner to give me comments. Unfortunately, I had already sent them the pen and so couldn't actually look at the problem they identified.
When I have had a comment to make about someone's post, I have done it through a PM. Each of us want some input from other turners, but hardly any of us WANT to have our mistakes/weaknesses pointed out publicly.
Also, some (like myself) don't really want to be public in criticizing another.
Just my thoughts.
Steve
The most constructive comment I have gotten was after a PITH, where I had to ask my partner to give me comments. Unfortunately, I had already sent them the pen and so couldn't actually look at the problem they identified.
When I have had a comment to make about someone's post, I have done it through a PM. Each of us want some input from other turners, but hardly any of us WANT to have our mistakes/weaknesses pointed out publicly.
Also, some (like myself) don't really want to be public in criticizing another.
Just my thoughts.
Steve
BSea
Member
I agree with this. I think I've received only 1 or 2 criticisms on pens. One was a real eye opener for me. When I 1st started making pens, the only real lights I had were fluorescent lights on the ceiling of my garage. KenV pointed out to me that it looked like scratches on my pen in one of the pictures I posted. I didn't notice them in the picture, but when I took the pen out into the daylight, they were there. Since then I've taken more care in sanding and polishing, and installed 2 magnetic lights on my lathe to help me see the details better. My eyes ain't what they used to be.
Thank you KenV for making me pay more attention to the details
I don't think anyone wants to be publicly criticized. But if we can put our egos aside, and really listen, we can learn something. And if it's done publicly, others can learn from the experience.
It reminds me of when I played football in high school. We always dreaded Mondays when the coach would show films of our last game. He would see a mistake, and play it over & over. It wasn't fun to watch when you were to the featured player. But we all tried to not let it happen again, and we learned from our mistakes.
As long as the critique is polite & friendly (Not the way my coach critiqued BTW
), I think doing it in public is ok. And as others have said, if it's a real problem (over/under turned, scratches, etc) speak up, but if it's just a matter of opinion (blank color, components, contour) then keep quiet.Oh, and Steve, if you want to critique any of my pens in a PM that's ok with me.:biggrin:
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Carl Fisher
Member
I think a C&C section or at least explicitly asking for C&C is a good thing. But let me play devil's advocate here for a second.
At what point do critiques become less fact and more opinion?
When combining colors do we pull out the color wheel and say I was going for complimentary, triad or split complimentary? Rather a comments comes out as "I don't think the colors work well together" which is a pure subjective comment without really being able to understand or explain why they feel that way.
Same goes for proportion. Do we start looking at the golden ratio and pulling out the Fibonacci? What if the creator was going for more abstract than structured?
So other than overall fit as seen in the pictures, quality of finish as seen in the pictures, or other obvious issues, what does that leave that is not subjective feedback?
At what point do critiques become less fact and more opinion?
When combining colors do we pull out the color wheel and say I was going for complimentary, triad or split complimentary? Rather a comments comes out as "I don't think the colors work well together" which is a pure subjective comment without really being able to understand or explain why they feel that way.
Same goes for proportion. Do we start looking at the golden ratio and pulling out the Fibonacci? What if the creator was going for more abstract than structured?
So other than overall fit as seen in the pictures, quality of finish as seen in the pictures, or other obvious issues, what does that leave that is not subjective feedback?
sbell111
Member
Isn't all of our feedback just opinion?
A while back, someone posted a cigar pen to a facebook group that I'm on. To my eye, it appeared that when the pen was assembled, the upper tube was flipped so it was significantly underturned at the top and overturned where it met the center coupler. I mentioned the issue and got jumped on by the guy who made it. In my mind, there were clear objective problems with the pen. In his mind, the pen was prefect and my opinion was wrong.
At the end of the day, the only critique that we can really give anyone is our personal opinions. Of course, this goes beyond the 'show off your pen' area. It is true of about every discussion about this hobby.
Dan Masshardt
Member
No, I think that's objective not subjective.
Now, sometimes pictures can be deceiving I know.
But I also know this - I have a few early pens where the ends were not even where they met the hardware. Or the blank material overhangs the hardware (without being rounded down to it even).
These are objective flaws not subjective and you'll never convince me otherwise. ;-)
But yes, much of our critique is about subjective stuff like proportions, colors etc.
Although when I see a big wasp pen, what is subjective certainly feels objective. :-/
triw51
Member
I agree with Carl. I have asked for critiques on some of my work and been dissapointed when I get 800 (give or take) views but only 1 or 2 comments. I value the crritiques I have received especially when I was starting. I remember a critique I received on a cigar pen. The critique pointed out a few flaws and a suggestion on how to do better. I tried his suggestion (it had to do with appling my finish) and it helped me do better. So please keep up the critiques
Carl Fisher
Member
Well, that's your opinion anyway :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
sbell111
Member
I believe that critiques are important, regardless of whether they are objective or subjective. The important thing is that we remain friendly. There are far too many jerks on the internet.
BSea
Member
Maybe we should make it the responsibility of the poster. He/she should say something like:
CC my Fit Finish, Photography
or
CC my blank color with kit, contour
They could combine as many or as few items as they choose
Then we can see specifically what they are looking to improve.
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Carl Fisher
Member
I think the problem is when you get people who have a vastly different opinion than the original creator and feathers get ruffled and heated discussions ensue. Sometimes we have to put on our adult hats for a few moments and agree that not everyone will have the same opinions and that's fine.
It's all about delivery and many of us don't have that finesse to tell someone that they don't like something about their work in a way that makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.
It's all about delivery and many of us don't have that finesse to tell someone that they don't like something about their work in a way that makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.
sbell111
Member
I think that the comments in this thread show that sometimes we don't recognize the areas in which we need to improve. It takes that 'outsider eye' to see what we don't.
GaryMGg
Member
I agree with the above. However, I don't agree that ALL critiques are subjective as posited earlier.
A visible scratch is a scratch. How bad it is may be subjective but the fact that a finish has scratches is factual.
I believe it's beneficial to separate the subjective (opinion) from a factual comment AND not offer highly subjective critiques unless the poster asks.
I'm also a big fan of the Like button as it allows me to offer kudos without repeating what's been said--but that's just me.
plano_harry
Member
Wow Carl, lot's of opinions on this! Not seeing a definitive answer, but I have enjoyed reading, lots of good comments and none that I felt I needed to counter.
MarkD probably best described my thoughts. Pictures are everything and I need a magnifying glass to evaluate the pen in my hand in most cases.
Then there is the "in the middle syndrome". I don't think I can see the flaws in the advanced turners' work, if there are any, unless I had extreme magnification. So I don't even look, I just admire the beauty of the pen without taking time to write an essay on its virtues. There are very few intermediate and advanced level pens I don't like.
For beginners, they may be struggling with photography, fit or finish. I want to offer suggestions but not discourage - since it may have taken a couple of days to get up the courage to post their first pen.
The rest falls to personal preference ranking:
I appreciate constructive criticism. In SOYP, I am looking for something unusual or special. A commercial blank on a kit is not going to draw a comment unless it is a material I have not seen before or didn't appreciate until it was combined with that kit.
I sort of like the idea of "certified critiquers" that I could submit my best work for evaluation. I thought a "split complimentary" was "for a fat guy, you don't sweat much":bulgy-eyes:
MarkD probably best described my thoughts. Pictures are everything and I need a magnifying glass to evaluate the pen in my hand in most cases.
Then there is the "in the middle syndrome". I don't think I can see the flaws in the advanced turners' work, if there are any, unless I had extreme magnification. So I don't even look, I just admire the beauty of the pen without taking time to write an essay on its virtues. There are very few intermediate and advanced level pens I don't like.
For beginners, they may be struggling with photography, fit or finish. I want to offer suggestions but not discourage - since it may have taken a couple of days to get up the courage to post their first pen.
The rest falls to personal preference ranking:
- Do I (like) the pen?
- Would I make one like it?
- Do I wish I COULD make one like it?
- I don't even know HOW you made that!
I appreciate constructive criticism. In SOYP, I am looking for something unusual or special. A commercial blank on a kit is not going to draw a comment unless it is a material I have not seen before or didn't appreciate until it was combined with that kit.
I sort of like the idea of "certified critiquers" that I could submit my best work for evaluation. I thought a "split complimentary" was "for a fat guy, you don't sweat much":bulgy-eyes:
GaryMGg
Member
Junior Samples exchange with Lulu Roman on Hee Haw many years ago.
Lulu "Junion say something nice about me."
Junior "For a big fat woman Lulu, you don't sweat much."
Most people aren't blunt like me, but I can assure you that if you get hundreds of views, just a handful of 'likes' and maybe only a few comments, then your work ( and the photo btw) has indeed been critiqued.:wink:
To get honest comments, you need to do much more....
This is a community, take part and contribute ( without an agenda :wink: ) to other topics. There are many members here that I haven't ever met or ever likely to meet, but I feel I'm pretty good buddies with and we can take the pee out of each other without getting upset.
If you go to a party and are just a wallflower, then you can only expect to be ignored. Even the prettiest girl and most handsome bloke need to interact if they want some attention. :biggrin:
I'm one of the lucky ones......I'm extremely handsome and a load mouth to boot...:biggrin::laugh:
To get honest comments, you need to do much more....
This is a community, take part and contribute ( without an agenda :wink: ) to other topics. There are many members here that I haven't ever met or ever likely to meet, but I feel I'm pretty good buddies with and we can take the pee out of each other without getting upset.
If you go to a party and are just a wallflower, then you can only expect to be ignored. Even the prettiest girl and most handsome bloke need to interact if they want some attention. :biggrin:
I'm one of the lucky ones......I'm extremely handsome and a load mouth to boot...:biggrin::laugh:
Yep, why I've heard you're so good looking you almost make me wish I was a woman.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Curly
Member
A small critique if I may.
You're a "loud mouth". What you say is a load but your colourful selection is superb. :biggrin:
SteveJ
Member
I've seen your picture Leroy, and you wouldn't make a very attractive woman...
That's why I said "....almost....
Rounder
Member
Now that's an honest critique right there!
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And, I hope you noticed the grace with which it was received.:biggrin: