What would you do? Moral dilemma

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micah

micah

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Searcy, Arkansas
Hey guys! My wife has been put into a moral dilemma at work, and was just curious what you might do. We are at a loss.
My wife is the Director of a Preschool/Daycare that is located at a semi-large church here in town. We are not of the same denomination.
The situation is that a couple weeks ago one of the 4yr old girls in a class put rocks down another girls panties. The mother of that girl threw a fit to my wife, and she said that she would handle the situation. The mother didn't think that was good enough so she went to the board of directors about it. The board decided that the girl should be dismissed![V] Did I happen to mention that the little girls mother that got the rocks in the pants was a member of the church and is to be appointed a board member next month? Well, after my wife talking to the board and the accused girls parents they decided to give her another chance.
That wasn't good enough for the one girls parent though. The father came up today and threw a huge fit.
To make a long story short, during my wifes board meeting tonight they informed her that she had to tell the Grandmother (guardian) of the girl, the girl is dismissed immediatly.
A little background of the girl, her mother died during childbirth, and the father didn't want anything to do with her so she went to live with her Grandmother. The father showed back up last year wanting to step up. He was seeing her ever weekend and she was supposed go to live with him this summer....About a month ago he called the Grandmother and said that he couldn't do it and that he didn't want to see her again..[V]
Then, last week she had to have her tonsils out...
So, if my wife doesn't dismiss her she will be fired. PERIOD. If she does, which she strongly believes this shoulnd be done to this girl for this reason, she would be going against what she thinks is morally right. My wife is a VERY moral person, and is haveing a lot of trouble with this one.
If you care to chime in, let me know what you think.
Thanks!
Micah
 
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My wife is a teacher.. She teaches kindergarten. She was a director of a preschool while she was going to college. This is a tough one.. I to believe that the child shouldn't be dismissed over this.. They are 4 yr olds. They play and do things like this. If this lady is going to be on the board and her boss.. Does she really want to be working for somebody like this??? I feel for the 4 yr old.. Finally having a father figure and then he leaves. That just isn't right.. Then being kicked out of a school she nows and having to start all over again. I wouldn't want to be in your wives shoes right now.. ...I now I wasn't any help.. Sorry..Good luck on what ever you decide.. Dan
 
Having served on a few boards, I tend to side with them. In fact if our CEO, COO, or any of the staff were to not execute to boards direction they would have two options given to them - resign or be fired.

I don't mean to sound cold but she has to dismiss the girl. If she doesn't then the both of them will be out of there because the girl will be dismissed right after your wife.
 
Thanks for your comments Dan. That is also another catch to this hole thing. My wife is also planning on starting college this fall for her teaching degree.
She wouldn't be able to do both though since they require her to work at least 55hrs a week (on salary) plus church staff meeting, Preschool board meeting, and Preschool staff meetings after hours, so she would be putting in her notice in about a month or so anyway. We were just hoping to have some sort of job lined up on the weekends to a least ADD to my income.
This is a toughy.
 
Thanks for your thoughts as well, Eric.
Since you've also served on boards, if you can, tell me what you think about this.
The board also told her that when she tells the Grandmother tomorrow she has to say is was her dission and not to mention that the board had anything to do with it.
Is that right?
And yes,,,,unfortunantly the girl would be removed anyway...
 
Wow.

It continually amazes me what frequently happens in a "godly" environment you would expect to find in a church. Last I checked, forgiveness was pretty high on just about every doctrine's list of things to do. How can anyone in good conscience PUNISH, beyond a reasonable level (time out, public apology, whatever), a 4 year old for what would appear to be normal horseplay (I do remember being a kid, and sticking ANYTHING in another kids pants was the highlight of many a recess period). Unless there is some ongoing issue with the "guilty party" such as aggression or bullying that has not been correctable, and you do not indicate that there is, dismissing any child with the issues she MUST have from her apparently quite unstable home life from the one stable environment she has is unforgivable.

Kids will be kids, they will pull pranks, get in fights and all sorts of mischief, we ALL did. It is now our job as supposed adults to help them learn, let them grow and love them every minute of every day. We as adults can usually make sense out of arbitrary decisions made by a company we work for or our politicians, a 4 year old can't. All she will know is that she has been cast out of the one stable group she knows, sent away from her friends, and that will be damaging.

I cannot sympathize more with your wife. She has an intolerable decision to make. I hope for her sake she stands up to the board to defend this child or walks away from the job. As you describe her as a very moral person, she will relive this decision every day for a long time. Forgiving others is easy, forgiving ourselves, much harder. Her morality will make not defending a child very difficult to live with.

I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers and wish you strength in whatever decision you make.
 
Micah,

While I agree that there is a dilemma, dismissing the child is a bit harsh(IMHO), there is nothing morally wrong with that decision. Unless you own your business and therefore become your own boss, there are times you are required to do things with which you disagree. I have been required to terminate employees that I felt either deserved another chance or the punishment didn't fit the crime. Unfortunately it goes with the territory. I do not envy your wife's position and hopefully she can make a decision she can live with.

Dan
 
The only thing I can offer is she needs to do what she feels is right. What ever her decision is she will have to live with it for the rest of her life. One can always get another job but can you live with yourself after doing something that goes against your principles. On a different note I would demand that the board put their demands in writing to protect yourself from litigation.
 
No, your wife is in her right IMHO to state clearly that the board decided that the girl should be dismissed immediately and whether she agrees or not with their decision she must follow through with their decision.

Given the other information about quitting soon, she may want to ask a board member to meet her tomorrow, give her notice, and let them dismiss the girl. They may dismiss your wife immediately but she will have the satisfaction of turning in her resignation in writing before being fired.
 
Originally posted by micah
<br /> If she does, which she strongly believes this shoulnd be done to this girl for this reason, she would be going against what she thinks is morally right.
[/quote/]
In my view, this answers the delima. Sounds like this little girl needs someone to stand up for HER for a change. After all she is only 4 years old, and if I read correctly, the board's first rulling was to give her another chance anyway.
So, if it turns out like Eric stated and both your wife and the little girl are dismissed, this child will never forget the lady that did stand up for her, and your wife has earned a friend for life.
This is just my opinion. Tim
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Thanks guys, she has dissmissed others in the past but have been much differant circumtances and harsher things. This one is very difficult though.
She has decided to sleep on it though and if she decideds to not do it she will turn her resignation in to them in the morning with her reason.
I'm going to sleep on it too!
Goodnight!
 
This is sad. [:(!] We are talking about four year olds for pete's sake. Clearly the mother over-reacted and the board should have squelched it right there. However, since this woman is up to become a board member, the situation became political. And when things go political, logic is flung out the window. Fortunately, your wife is in a position to tell them to stuff it, but if she really depended on the income from that job then it pays to choose your battles. At this point however, she can only do as the board says or get fired. And if she does it once, what's next...?

Callous or not, the young girls background should not be a factor in the decision.

The preschool should have rules that clearly define what is and is not acceptable behavior. Obviously, not every situation could possibly be defined but there must be something? It may be too late for this little girl, but going forward I would insist that rules are made clear to both children and parents.
 
Micah:

The fact that the board wants your wife to tell the grandmother it was her decision and leave the board out of it suggests to me that they know they are in the wrong and are trying to cover their butts if the grandmother sues. Your wife should insist on the decision in writing from the board before she does anything.
Then if I was her I would tell them where to stuff it, give the paper to the grandmother and leave with her head held high.

By the way, I've been a Christian for over forty years and what that board is doing is disgusting. Unfortunately too many churches today have forgotten what their mission is and become political social clubs.
 
She HAS to do what she is directed to do. No two ways about it. Subsequent to that, she should think about starting her own child care where "being a kid" is expected and allowed for kids.

SHEESH when are adults going to get a clue that kids are kids and you can't apply adult rules to them. If an adult dumped rocks down someone's shorts they should be fired. If they dump them down a child's pants they should be prosecuted. But at 4 years old the kids have no clue about what is "sexual harassment" and what isn't.

SHEESH
GK
 
Good god, I can't believe you people who think a 4 year old should be expelled for something like this. They can hardly be considered mature enough to know the difference between right and wrong even 50% of the time. If this is something the girl has been doing repeatedly, then she needs professional help. If this is the first time, it is totally ridiculous. I would highly recommend that your wife tell the board that if they want the girl expelled then they can do it. You may be surprised at the outcome. I worked for a guy in CA many years ago and he was ordered by a superior to fire one of his people for something that just about as ridiculous. He told his superior that if wanted the women fired he could do it himself. My boss was given two weeks to either find another job in the company or leave. He found another job in a different department and guess what? The woman who was supposed to be fired was still there 2 years later when I left the company.
 
Unfreaking real... I think this is more of a case of rocks in someones head, and not a 4 year olds shorts!

As for the board telling your wife that she has to say it was her ideea?? I would at that point tell them to stuff it.
 
I say send Guido to talk to the parents demanding the dismisal; they are obviously Yazoo's who need some intellectual persuasion.
Further, I'd bypass the Board and go directly to the head pastor. IF he can't intervene in this girl's behalf, that church has nothing spiritual to offer anyone anyway.
What a bunch of morons! [V]
Gary
 
Personally I would resign and tell the fair minded group goodbye. The offending child needs some understanding, love and security. The child is 4 yrs old. She needs to be taught not punished. I truly love God but have little use for organized religeon. Issues such as this REALLY **** me off.
 
Originally posted by micah
<br />Thanks for your thoughts as well, Eric.
Since you've also served on boards, if you can, tell me what you think about this.
The board also told her that when she tells the Grandmother tomorrow she has to say is was her dission and not to mention that the board had anything to do with it.
Is that right?
And yes,,,,unfortunantly the girl would be removed anyway...
Click to expand...

That is not right.. If the board wants her gone the board should do it..Or at least admit it..
 
As one of the pastors at my church I supervise the director of our after school program. There are questions I would have that I would want answered concerning the number of workers present during the incident, what they said about what happened, the circumstances surrounding the incident, was an incident report written up, etc. Having said that I think there is more than one moral question involved here. On the surface it would seem that the dismissal action is not warranted. Unless there are circumstances not known, the punishment is too severe and is not in the best interest of the child. The other moral question is the direction of the board to lie about the directive from the board. It seems that the board is trying to insulate itself from responsibility because of the negative response that would come to the board and the program. I think I would suggest that your wife put in writing the reasons that she does not believe the child should be dismissed, and her reasons for declining to lie about the source of the directive for dismissal. Send a copy of the document to the chairman of the board, the pastor, and the chairman of the elders (or deacons)at the church. The board needs a course correction in it's understanding of what "truth" is. It will probably result in loss of job but it will not allow the board to pass responsibility. If that many people know about the incident it will be hard to keep it under wraps like the board is wanting to do. Being a Baptist I can say this, "There are three ways to spread information - telephone, telegraph, and tella Baptist." While this does not sound like a Baptist board to me, the principle holds.
I urge your wife to model her Christian principles and servant heart and not get vindictive or spiteful toward the board. She has an opportunity to model Christan convictions in a humble manner and her testimony of actions will bear good fruit down the road. This is an unfortunate event and I will pray for your wife to do the right thing. There is never a wrong time to do the right thing.
 
Personal Courage, taking the hard right over the easy wrong. I pray your wife came to the conclusion that will give her peace in the long run. I'm sure we all would like to hear the outcome. My best to you and your wife.
 
Me personally, I could not live with myself doing what the board is demanding. Even though the little girl would get dismissed anyway, I would not do it and turn in my resignation letter. If the board wants her gone or the complaining mother/father let them do it. I would ask for the request in writing since they don't want the finger pointed at them as well as to protect herself.
 
If she is planning on leaving to go back to school, I say let them fire her. Let the board make the morally wrong decision here. I would also question why they would want the other mother on their board. Caving into pressure from the board is not a possitive thing to put on your resume. This is definately a WWJD situation. I don't see Jesus dismissing the child.
 
Originally posted by edman2
<br /> is not in the best interest of the child.
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Boy how some of us big folks seem to loose site of this in our parenting/teaching. Cant say about the rest of it as I'm not there. But on the surface from what you have said I would not do there dirty work.
 
Unfortunately the woman who is going to join the board is just now exercising the power she would like to have in the future through the current board members. She feels she is so aggrieved that she has to impact the offending child with what she feels is the appropriate punishment. This shows the potential board member is not about principles, but about feeling she was successful in showing the board that she can exercise the future power right now. There is more going on there than what you think, because she should not have been able to influence the current board as easily as she did. She either has something on the board to influence them, or the board does not exercise the power they currently have in a judicial non partisan way.

Either way, it will be difficult for your wife to operate in the waters there that seem to become more murky with the addition of the new board member, that obviously will wield her powers in the manner she sees fit, and not judiciously. The request by the board to silence your wife on the reasoning the girl will be dismissed is both callous to your wife, and at best cowardice by the existing board to reveal the true nature of the decisions being made. All around that makes it difficult for your wife to remain neutral knowing the board will continue to insulate themselves with behind the scenes activities.
 
Originally posted by ericw95
<br />No, your wife is in her right IMHO to state clearly that the board decided that the girl should be dismissed immediately and whether she agrees or not with their decision she must follow through with their decision.

Given the other information about quitting soon, she may want to ask a board member to meet her tomorrow, give her notice, and let them dismiss the girl. They may dismiss your wife immediately but she will have the satisfaction of turning in her resignation in writing before being fired.
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I agree with Eric on this part except I would meet the whole board, not just a member to give notice. Let THEM dismiss the girl.

Kids can't be kids anymore[:(] OMG for putting rocks down panties..........give me a break! As adults we tend to put our ideas, thoughts and feelings onto children. Our minds have been corrupted by TV, society and ourselves. Four year olds don't have the same minds and IMHO this was just something kids do, totally innocent playing. Sure the girls should be told not to play that way and be steered to more constructive activities but geesh!!!!!! I hate to be a member of the church when THAT mother gets on the board. I also see that the board's hands are somewhat tied because of the FIT the mother is throwing. Sad situation, hope it works out for your wife.
 
If your wife is willing to take the risk...EXPOSE all this as high as she can. Maybe, she can make a HUGE change by this move and hopefully avert this lady from joining the board member ranks.

As mentioned, the girl is just being a kid and the punishment is totally out of proportion.

That said, I know budgets are real and sometimes you have to "sacrifice" to stay alive and fight another day.

Tough decision that only her can really make because she knows a lot more (what transpired and your financial situation) than we do. Good luck!!!
 
As a pastor this is frustrating. I served in a church where there was a constant struggle between the church and nursery school.
I would say first and foremost, if the church has a nursery school to subsidize income for the church, it is no wonder there is a problem. In my experience, when the church views and operates with the nursery school/daycare as a mission and a ministry, many of these issues are resolved.
However, whenever there is a fear of precious money walking out the door and the church buckles under that pressure, something has gone wrong.

I can't speak for all pastors, but in my honest opinion, she needs to stand her ground for what she believes is the morally right thing to do. If you take the fact that she would be putting her notice in in a month anyway out of the picture, I would still stand my ground.

Ultimately, it sounds to me that this church does not understand why they have the daycare, or perhaps they understand fully well that the only reason is for the extra income. As far as I'm concerned, ministry to a four year old with a life history such as hers far outweighs the potential of an angry board member or a few disgruntled parents who threaten to pull their own kids. Is it a ministry or a moneymaker?

BTW---When I was four I convinced my little brother to run around naked outside in the snow. Shame on me. I'll never be the same.[;)]
 
So many thoughts on what to do or say. One could make a list of the rotten things that the kids' of the board members have done and let them know that in the future, this type of action would get their kids kicked out.

Mostly I agree with the members here who are/were involved with their churches in stating to write things down and do what is in the best interest of the child. if your wife was not thinking about leaving, the decision would be much harder, but I do believe that she would get a chance at employment elsewhere in a hurry.

I wonder if the local community paper would print the story about all this. Seems like just the thing to get people thinking about how tax exempt organizations and churches have become political organizations run be a select few who are not taking the best interest of all into account.
 
Thanks for all the support and prayers. I just talked to my wife and she had a meeting with the assoc. pastor this morning and his advice to her was that "this is what the church wants (wink, wink)".
I think that a couple of you really have hit the nail on the head. This preschool is definantly a money maker. The building itself was completly paid for by one of the church members (2 million dollars) so that they could have it. Every bit of profit except extreme neccesaties go back into the church fund.
Another problem is that, and this is openly talked about at board meetings, that all board members are chosen by the Executive Board of the church and the main thing that they look at for qualifications is how much they donate to the church. They just go down from the top.
As for publicisy this or getting everyone involved. Not good. This church has some major influential people in town and I can guarantee (since most are on these board) that it wouldn't be very good for my wife in the long run.
Update later.
 
Nothing seems to keep a board of Directors on their toes these days like the fear of a lawsuit. Refusing to follow the Boards directive to dismiss this child, unfair as it might be, could be legitimate grounds for termination. Refusing to follow the Boards directive to lie about whose decision it was would, in most states, not be legitimate grounds for termination and would certainly open the door for litigation. Apologies to any lawyers in the group, and I would not normally advocate such a stance (having been on the receiving end of a frivolous lawsuit that cost way to much to get thrown out), but this would appear to me to be an appropriate situation for seeking legal counsel. I'd guess there's a good chance the day care center does not have a sizable blanket bond (insurance policy) to cover the directors from personal liability in a civil suit. Having stated they don't want their part know in how this dismissal is handled would seem to indicate they are already aware this course of action is not justifiable in the eyes of the community. The recommendation of having your wife document the highlights of the different discussions leading up to this point, and providing a copy to each of the directors with the request that they provide her written direction to dismiss the student is both reasonable and prudent. I'd be real surprised if the matter was pursued after that, and if so I'd recommend your wife make clear she will not follow orders to engage in unethical activities (intentionally misrepresenting the circumstances and source of the decision). May seem like a hard decision, but in matters of principle you will always need to look yourself in the mirror each morning.
 
I had a HUGE long reply typed, then deleted it, because I got too long winded :)

Lyle's reply is right on the mark - well said.

Here's my gut reaction:

Bottom line - your wife should resign and write a letter to the board outlining exactly the reasons - down to the letter. A copy of this letter should be submitted to every newspaper and TV station within a reasonable distance - someone will jump on it and bring it to light. Let the world judge those who would judge a 4 year old girl so harshly. Perhaps then their moral compass would right itself. I doubt it - money is the root of all evil [V]
 
I haven't read all the replies but will throw in my thoughts. Sadly, left out of most of this equation is the girl who committed the act. At four years old, she is not fully responsible for what she did. Under other circumstances, only teaching and corrective actions would be necessary. But, this is a private institution and your wife is an employee. Employees do what they are told to do by superiors or suffer consequences, often meaning termination. Agreed, bungled handling all the way around but, as I see it, there is no dilemma for your wife. Do as told or leave.
 
I have a different take - your wife should negotiate to seperate the two little girls until she can find an alternate placement for the 'offender.' She should work with the grandmother and local child services agencies to find a place where the little girl can be properly cared for and where her behavior can be assessed for indications of difficulty handling the changes in her life. There are therapeutic child care facilities.

Yess, kids will be kids, but this could be an indication of a child in distress I think it would be unethical to dismiss the child without helping her caregivers find an appropriate alternative where her needs can be met.

Julia
 
Originally posted by micah
<br />Thanks for all the support and prayers. I just talked to my wife and she had a meeting with the assoc. pastor this morning and his advice to her was that "this is what the church wants (wink, wink)".
I think that a couple of you really have hit the nail on the head. This preschool is definantly a money maker. The building itself was completly paid for by one of the church members (2 million dollars) so that they could have it. Every bit of profit except extreme neccesaties go back into the church fund.
Another problem is that, and this is openly talked about at board meetings, that all board members are chosen by the Executive Board of the church and the main thing that they look at for qualifications is how much they donate to the church. They just go down from the top.
As for publicisy this or getting everyone involved. Not good. This church has some major influential people in town and I can guarantee (since most are on these board) that it wouldn't be very good for my wife in the long run.
Update later.
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This is NOT a church, it's a BANK!

However, it sounds like a SMALL TOWN bank. IF you plan on living in this town, SMITING these individuals will PROBABLY be hazardous to YOUR health- financially.

So, a diplomatically-worded "This expulsion is not consistent with my conscientious decision-making" and I am concerned that this family may have legal recourse, so I am unable to follow the verbal directive that I expel this child.

Be prepared for your wife to be fired (yes, this may give you grounds for a suit if you want to make enemies on this board). More important, to me, would be to find a different church. This is more of a socialite "who's who" where you can buy your way to eternity.

Remember, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. That doesn't stop them from looking for EASY ways to do so.

Just my take. Worth every shilling!!
 
this is the main reason i will not have anything to do with religious groups. they are the biggest bunch of bigots you can find. when you read stuff like this you can see why the devil is winning when people like this claim to be working for the lord.
 
Hi Micah,

Very interesting! There are a lot of things that need to go into your Wife's decision. Resigning is not a bad option, as future employment at this place does not look to be a positive thing. But if you guys need the money until she starts school, then maybe she needs to dismiss the child. It appears that she will be dismissed anyway, and leaving an enviornemt like this may be a positive thing for the child! But I would stop short of lying for the board to help them cover their tracks.

One thing I can tell you, whichever way she goes on this, it will be hard, and our thoughts and prayers here will be with both of you!

Scott.
 
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Originally posted by bigvoots44
<br />this is the main reason i will not have anything to do with religious groups. they are the biggest bunch of bigots you can find. when you read stuff like this you can see why the devil is winning when people like this claim to be working for the lord.
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It is unfortunate that this goes on in church(es). To say I am a Christian sometimes is taken to mean I am narrow minded and as you say, a bigot, by some. Christians are still human, and unfortunately don't always do the right thing. I know if I ever walked into a perfect church, it wouldn't be perfect anymore. I am praying for the outcome of the decision, that the goal is to do what is right, regardless, and know that that is what is desired, but that it is also a sticky situation for your wife to be in.
 
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