What do you pay yourself an hour?

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My answer to the question for me is $20 an hour.

In theory…

I'll follow this up with the true story of my journey so far. I began making pens in 2020. In 2022, I decided to try selling. I had given a pen to practically every one I knew, and everyone had said "you should sell these." So I did. I was enjoying making them and the hobby was getting expensive, and I just wanted to offset my costs. I built a website (Wordpress) and applied so some local shows.

In 2022 I sold half a year and ran negative a few hundred dollars on paper. In 2023, I was positive s few hundred dollars after a LOT of added expenses (tent, new lathe, jackery, etc). In 2024 I'm doing more shows and traveling further to better shows. Needed more inventory. So far in 2024, I'm up $2,500 net overall. I have a substantial inventory now, but I'm hustling hard to replace the items I sold at last weeks show for the next one.

So while I price my individual items including $20 an hour for the time it takes me to make them, I only get that if and when the item sells. I've brought in $2,500 for 3 years of effort. I'll estimate my PAID hourly rate to be right at $1.25. If I was paying an employee minimum wage of $7.25, I'd be -$9,000, minimum. If I paid them $20, I'd be -$25,000, and would really be shutting it down. But it's just me and what I enjoy doing with my time.

You have to really enjoy the crafting to even take a swing at this. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone without the grit.
 
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My answer to the question for me is $20 an hour.

In theory…

I'll follow this up with the true story of my journey so far. I began making pens in 2020. In 2022, I decided to try selling. I had given a pen to practically every one I knew, and everyone had said "you should sell these." So I did. I was enjoying making them and the hobby was getting expensive, and I just wanted to offset my costs. I built a website (Wordpress) and applied so some local shows.

In 2022 I sold half a year and ran negative a few hundred dollars on paper. In 2023, I was positive s few hundred dollars after a LOT of added expenses (tent, new lathe, jackery, etc). In 2024 I'm doing more shows and traveling further to better shows. Needed more inventory. So far in 2024, I'm up $2,500 net overall. I have a substantial inventory now, but I'm hustling hard to replace the items I sold at last weeks show for the next one.

So while I price my individual items including $20 an hour for the time it takes me to make them, I only get that if and when the item sells. I've brought in $2,500 for 3 years of effort. I'll estimate my PAID hourly rate to be right at $1.25. If I was paying an employee minimum wage of $7.25, I'd be -$9,000, minimum. If I paid them $20, I'd be -$25,000, and would really be shutting it down. But it's just me and what I enjoy doing with my time.

You have to really enjoy the crafting to even take a swing at this. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone without the grit.
And you are not even adding the labor cost to get to and from and watching the stand while you sell. You really have to love what you are doing if one does go this route. You make my point well when I say forget the per hour rate of pay when figuring price of pens. It just does not work. people combat that statement with well I only sell on line. My response is who watches the site? Who did all the work to set up the site and maintain it? Who does all the packing and shipping and trips to the post office? All these are labor factors. But we trick our minds when we see a few $$$ coming in. Love the hobby (notice I did not say love the business) Good luck to all.
 
so I work for a pretty large company and the ethics of purchasing items from fellow employees who may or may not be at various levels of management from each other gets brought up from time to time.

Yep - it's a thing at my insurance providing gig as well. I never ask if someone else wants to buy one of my pens, and if someone asks me to make them a pen I only charge for the materials only. Not that it's ever come up but I keep the invoices to prove it if needed. Full gifts like for the annual charity auction are just that - full gifts.
 
You have to really enjoy the crafting to even take a swing at this. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone without the grit.
Ah yup. Even thought the IRS requires me to make a profit I'm not selling to make a profit,
I'm selling mostly because it pushes me to both get in the garage and keep making 'em and also to keep on getting better at the ones I do make. If I'm going to have the chutzpah to ask someone to spend this kind of money on something that they can get all the same realistic functionality out of a 0.25 Bic pen, it's going to be as good as I can make it.

That and I had to find SOME way to get rid of all the pens I was making. It didn't take long before everyone around me was on their second and third gifted pen. :)
 
I find it challenging to keep up with time as well, because, for example it's been pretty hot in the garage some days triple digits which means I work in spurts with lots of breaks. I have found that getting in the habit of using my phone's stopwatch is helpful, as it will keep a running total of time as long as you remember to start and stop it. I've been using that method to get an idea of time spent making pens and nib holders.

It is the same for me. Not just during summer with the heat, I've also been facing some health issues, which forces me in and out of the shop often on days I'm working out there, even in the cooler months.

I use a product called CraftyBase to manage my production, track materials, track orders and shipping costs, report COGS, etc. CraftyBase DOES support specifying an hourly rate and time/effort invested in my "manufactures"...however, it actually does NOT include that in my COGS. The COGS is only the materials and supplies costs, not my "hourly rate" (or even my "shop rate" to account for things like electricity, etc.) The hourly rate is there just to help you gauge how much your time costs overall, and whether the time you invest is worth it on some generalized level, but its not actually part of the cost of goods sold.

I was surprised by that at first...but, it does make sense, since the hourly rate is really an arbitrary thing and when it comes to a FINE CRAFT, the price at which you sell is and should be based on how you intrinsically value your time and effort put into each item. I have been making a lot of things these days, not just pens. Some of them (more of them lately due to my health issues) have been small and low-cost (as in COGS) items, that also don't take much time...but, which I can pull off a decent profit margin from. Others require more time and effort to plan a complete product, and a lot more effort to actually craft (for example, I make these turned boxes now that are more than just your average box, with multiple compartments, different types of wood, and interesting finials that required a lot more effort than simply turning a basic round wood box.) These more complex items do get a higher selling price, but not because of the hours invested per-se. I still make kit pens, and since a kit is involved, and I don't have to hand craft metal parts or anything like that, I figure the upper limit on a pen price is probably $175-$200 unless I use some truly amazing or exotic blanks, and I do have a number of really nice (and expensive) blanks that might warrant higher prices. When I am finally able to get into kitless, I intend to put my all into their design and craftsmanship, and hope to be able to sell them at price points that reflect all of that.

I know that you do all hand crafted kitless pens. I know that you put a lot of effort into selecting the right blank, and that you put effort into achieving an optimal finish, etc. Fully hand crafting takes more time than just the time at the lathe...there is more planning time involved than just blank selection, etc. There is more of a personal craft involved as well. I think when it comes to selling a pen like that, you need to consider the care and love you put into your CRAFT, and value yourself and your products accordingly. I think you are selling yourself short with just $175 a pen. Your pens are wonderful. The market can certainly only bear a certain price in the long run, but, I think it is worth figuring out what that price is, and IMO you could push your prices up until you find that point, then back the price off a bit to maintain sales. I don't think this is as much about COGS and hourly rate, as it is figuring out how much other people value your work as well, and selling at the price people are willing to pay. As high as you can get.

FWIW, I do enter time and an hourly rate into CraftyBase. I chose $20/hr. This is more than the federal national minimum wage of $7.25. Why did I choose $20/hr? The federal national minimum wage is WILDLY out of touch with the state of the economy, the rouge amount of inflation we have had since 2021, and the general cost of living increases that most workers in this country are and have been facing. It is kind of a travesty that the federal minimum wage has not increased more, and minimum wage workers are suffering a lot as a result. A wage of $7.25/hr is just wildly out of touch with reality. There are many jobs that do pay a higher minimum wage, thankfully, especially if the labor is "skilled" to some degree or another...and I would certainly consider woodworking to be not just skilled labor, but trade labor and even "artisan" level labor for some people. As such, I do believe that a higher wage is warranted.

Again, though, this hourly rate and the time I invest is not actually factored into my COGS reports from CraftyBase. COGS is supposed to include only "direct" costs, and apparently internal labor costs are not direct (they can, in fact, cover many other things separate from the direct manufacture of product, such as lathe (and other machine) maintenance, shop maintenance and cleanup, etc.) Tracking this is more just to help me understand if I'm working in general, in my shop, for a reasonable wage or not. In the long run, you may work a lot of hours making a lot of stuff, that doesn't necessarily sell right away. It may not even sell in the year you craft it. As such, the actual amount of money available in your yearly revenue, may not be enough to ACTUALY pay yourself whatever arbitrary hourly rate you choose. Once you factor in other business costs, there may be even less to pay yourself an hourly rate. I think this is particularly true in the first few years you start a business, until you become well established and have a following. There are other reasons why an hourly rate is considered an indirect cost, and not included in COGS (which in particular, is used to report your Taxes. There is also COGM, cost of goods manufactured, which DOES include some of the indirect costs, but it is NOT used for your taxes...only internal reporting purposes.)

You might find this article useful:


It has other links to other useful articles as well. (I'm not an affiliate of CraftyBase, BTW...its just what I use to help me manage my business, notably COGS.)
 
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It is the same for me. Not just during summer with the heat, I've also been facing some health issues, which forces me in and out of the shop often on days I'm working out there, even in the cooler months.

I use a product called CraftyBase to manage my production, track materials, track orders and shipping costs, report COGS, etc. CraftyBase DOES support specifying an hourly rate and time/effort invested in my "manufactures"...however, it actually does NOT include that in my COGS. The COGS is only the materials and supplies costs, not my "hourly rate" (or even my "shop rate" to account for things like electricity, etc.) The hourly rate is there just to help you gauge how much your time costs overall, and whether the time you invest is worth it on some generalized level, but its not actually part of the cost of goods sold.

I was surprised by that at first...but, it does make sense, since the hourly rate is really an arbitrary thing and when it comes to a FINE CRAFT, the price at which you sell is and should be based on how you intrinsically value your time and effort put into each item. I have been making a lot of things these days, not just pens. Some of them (more of them lately due to my health issues) have been small and low-cost (as in COGS) items, that also don't take much time...but, which I can pull off a decent profit margin from. Others require more time and effort to plan a complete product, and a lot more effort to actually craft (for example, I make these turned boxes now that are more than just your average box, with multiple compartments, different types of wood, and interesting finials that required a lot more effort than simply turning a basic round wood box.) These more complex items do get a higher selling price, but not because of the hours invested per-se. I still make kit pens, and since a kit is involved, and I don't have to hand craft metal parts or anything like that, I figure the upper limit on a pen price is probably $175-$200 unless I use some truly amazing or exotic blanks, and I do have a number of really nice (and expensive) blanks that might warrant higher prices. When I am finally able to get into kitless, I intend to put my all into their design and craftsmanship, and hope to be able to sell them at price points that reflect all of that.

I know that you do all hand crafted kitless pens. I know that you put a lot of effort into selecting the right blank, and that you put effort into achieving an optimal finish, etc. Fully hand crafting takes more time than just the time at the lathe...there is more planning time involved than just blank selection, etc. There is more of a personal craft involved as well. I think when it comes to selling a pen like that, you need to consider the care and love you put into your CRAFT, and value yourself and your products accordingly. I think you are selling yourself short with just $175 a pen. Your pens are wonderful. The market can certainly only bear a certain price in the long run, but, I think it is worth figuring out what that price is, and IMO you could push your prices up until you find that point, then back the price off a bit to maintain sales. I don't think this is as much about COGS and hourly rate, as it is figuring out how much other people value your work as well, and selling at the price people are willing to pay. As high as you can get.

FWIW, I do enter time and an hourly rate into CraftyBase. I chose $20/hr. This is more than the federal national minimum wage of $7.25. Why did I choose $20/hr? The federal national minimum wage is WILDLY out of touch with the state of the economy, the rouge amount of inflation we have had since 2021, and the general cost of living increases that most workers in this country are and have been facing. It is kind of a travesty that the federal minimum wage has not increased more, and minimum wage workers are suffering a lot as a result. A wage of $7.25/hr is just wildly out of touch with reality. There are many jobs that do pay a higher minimum wage, thankfully, especially if the labor is "skilled" to some degree or another...and I would certainly consider woodworking to be not just skilled labor, but trade labor and even "artisan" level labor for some people. As such, I do believe that a higher wage is warranted.

Again, though, this hourly rate and the time I invest is not actually factored into my COGS reports from CraftyBase. COGS is supposed to include only "direct" costs, and apparently internal labor costs are not direct (they can, in fact, cover many other things separate from the direct manufacture of product, such as lathe (and other machine) maintenance, shop maintenance and cleanup, etc.) Tracking this is more just to help me understand if I'm working in general, in my shop, for a reasonable wage or not. In the long run, you may work a lot of hours making a lot of stuff, that doesn't necessarily sell right away. It may not even sell in the year you craft it. As such, the actual amount of money available in your yearly revenue, may not be enough to ACTUALY pay yourself whatever arbitrary hourly rate you choose. Once you factor in other business costs, there may be even less to pay yourself an hourly rate. I think this is particularly true in the first few years you start a business, until you become well established and have a following. There are other reasons why an hourly rate is considered an indirect cost, and not included in COGS (which in particular, is used to report your Taxes. There is also COGM, cost of goods manufactured, which DOES include some of the indirect costs, but it is NOT used for your taxes...only internal reporting purposes.)

You might find this article useful:


It has other links to other useful articles as well. (I'm not an affiliate of CraftyBase, BTW...its just what I use to help me manage my business, notably COGS.)
Very, very helpful. I don't actually pay myself. I put back in for supplies and tools, the rest goes into a savings for taxes and to some day down the line pay myself and my husband who helps part time. Neither of us get paid, as we have only been making fountain pens a year in August and have only been a business since Jan. 2024.

I'm trying to get an idea of what I should value my work at, andhonestly it really is all relative to as you said what one feels their value is. I just wanted to be able n the ballpark, and being as how I'm still a novice (a novice they has put in many, many hours towards learning) but still a novice I feel uncomfortable with $50 an hour and sadly my husband that does an incredibly important job and (that he has been employed at for over 20 years)with many credentials doesn't make that much an hour. I do want to be in the ballpark of the going rate, and I try to look around and be in right in there, but feel I need to do more to make sure I am compensating myself justly.

As always I value and appreciate your input and I hope you feel better soon. I'm definitely going to look into CraftyBase.
 
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Very, very helpful. I don't actually pay myself. I put back in for supplies and tools, the rest goes into a savings for taxes and to some day down the line pay myself and my husband who helps part time. Neither of us get paid, as we have only been making fountain pens a year in August and have only been a business since Jan. 2024.

I'm trying to get an idea of what I should value my work at, andhonestly it really is all relative to as you said what one feels their value is. I just wanted to be able n the ballpark, and being as how I'm still a novice (a novice they has put in many, many hours towards learning) but still a novice I feel uncomfortable with $50 an hour and sadly my husband that does an incredibly important job and (that he has been employed at for over 20 years)with many credentials doesn't make that much an hour. I do want to be in the ballpark of the going rate, and I try to look around and be in right in there, but feel I need to do more to make sure I am compensating myself justly.

As always I value and appreciate your input and I hope you feel better soon. I'm definitely going to look into CraftyBase.
I'd say $50/hr is pretty premium (we used to have a member here, Valley Boy, who could probably easily cover with a $50/hr rate; there are a few others as well who could probably warrant such a rate). Especially if you aren't actually paying yourself a wage. Even if you WERE paying yourself a wage, I think for 100% hand crafted pens, there is still going to be an element of valuing the pen for more than just its materials and intrinsic time investment. There is value beyond those two things, and I think that's really the hardest part.

I put some time into a couple boxes I made recently. I kind of forgot how to turn anything other than pens (which was the only thing I turned for about two years), so there was more time invested than I originally thought. I had to re-learn how to turn fine finials out of ebony, how to just handle hollowing out a box, etc. One of the boxes was an egg box, which I turned both an ebony pedestal and finial for, both of which also had eggs in them. It was a fun project, took a lot of time, used some fairly exotic and expensive pieces of wood. I have it on my store, but, I feel I've under-priced it... However, it hasn't sold in several months, so, I dunno... There is the time investiment, which is maybe covered by the current price, but there probably won't be much profit. IF it sells. Its tough properly valuing any item. I have another box that I tried to push myself with, did something entirely new with a "flat" finial design and double-decker box design. Same problem...took more time than I expected, and I don't think I've valued it enough, but at the same time, it hasn't sold. 🤷‍♂️
 
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I use a product called CraftyBase to manage my production, track materials, track orders and shipping costs, report COGS, etc. CraftyBase DOES support specifying an hourly rate and time/effort invested in my "manufactures"...however, it actually does NOT include that in my COGS. The COGS is only the materials and supplies costs, not my "hourly rate" (or even my "shop rate" to account for things like electricity, etc.) The hourly rate is there just to help you gauge how much your time costs overall, and whether the time you invest is worth it on some generalized level, but its not actually part of the cost of goods sold.
.....

So I'm curious, does CraftyBase track a true bill of materials vs inventory? By that question I mean if I say I I sold a pen and select the components that went into it will those things be reduced from an inventory table?
 
use $X per hour. To that I double material and supplies cost.

In my prior life I was an accountant. Pens are more of a hobby, but I make game calls which are similar to making pens. I "sort of" keep track of time spent on each type/style of game call. I know within a few minutes of how long it takes to make a duck call, a predator calk, a turkey slate call or a turkey trumpet.

The material costs, for game calls are minimal but still an expense.

The time spent selling is and has been for over 60 years an unknown. In one venue sales will crazy, the next venue you might sell 1 or 2. I gave up estimating that time spent years ago. I also adjust the retail price based on the venue. At a good gun show I can almost charge double what I charge at a charity hunting event.

My prices are also based on my reputation. I've been making game calls for over 60 years. In some families I've sold calls to 3 or 4 generations of West Texas ranchers. On the flip side of that, there's some ranchers that get huge discounts. As in freebies, in turn I get free hunting privileges.

An example, $X equals $60. It takes me 30 minutes to make that call. Material costs $5. I would sell for $30 + $10 = $40 give or take up to $10 depending on the venue.

On a laminated call where I spend 2 hours on making a fancy blank. That's computed at my $X rate per hour. Or in the above example I would add $120 to the sales price.

For my pens, bottle stoppers etc., I also use the same time factor plus materials and supplies.
 
So I'm curious, does CraftyBase track a true bill of materials vs inventory? By that question I mean if I say I I sold a pen and select the components that went into it will those things be reduced from an inventory table?

Its pretty powerful. It also integrates with marketplace facilitators like Etsy, Shopify, etc.

I start by entering my purchases. You can either enter things as materials, or categorize them as other expenses: consumable supplies, shipping costs, fees, tools and equipment, office expenses, etc. (and add your own categories.)

In my case, I integrate with Etsy. So instead of creating products with CraftyBase, I create my listings in Etsy. CraftyBase then once a day syncs with Etsy, pulling in listings (and it understands things like variants, etc.) and creates Products for me. Those products are linked to the Etsy listing, and CraftyBase will, upon sale, automatically track things like Etsy fees, any shipping costs (if you use the Etsy shipping feature to generate labels), and it will create an Order in CraftyBase for you, linked to that product.

Once you have Products in CraftyBase, you can then create Manufactures. These take some quantities of materials to craft the product(s). The Manufacture is associated with the Product. When the product sells (and CraftyBase will also import sales from Etsy, or other platforms, automatically as well...along with all other costs, fees, etc. associated with the sale), the cost of those materials is automatically accounted for in the Profit and Loss report (as well as several others), which can be used for your COGS when it comes time to do your taxes.

Basically, CraftyBase tracks everything, all the time. You enter your purchases, and either enter your products manually into CraftyBase, or you can let it create them automatically by importing listings or products from third party seller platforms. You use manufactures to track consumption of materials (this is also where you can enter your hourly labor, and there is a global setting for your hourly rate). When you make a sale, you can manually enter an order for that product, associated with the order, which is where you can track all the other costs like tax, fees, shipping, etc. There are a plethora of reports that can be run. You can also export data as CSV and generate your own reports from that, in say Excel or something, if you prefer.
 
Very, very helpful. I don't actually pay myself. I put back in for supplies and tools, the rest goes into a savings for taxes and to some day down the line pay myself and my husband who helps part time. Neither of us get paid, as we have only been making fountain pens a year in August and have only been a business since Jan. 2024.

I'm trying to get an idea of what I should value my work at, andhonestly it really is all relative to as you said what one feels their value is. I just wanted to be able n the ballpark, and being as how I'm still a novice (a novice they has put in many, many hours towards learning) but still a novice I feel uncomfortable with $50 an hour and sadly my husband that does an incredibly important job and (that he has been employed at for over 20 years)with many credentials doesn't make that much an hour. I do want to be in the ballpark of the going rate, and I try to look around and be in right in there, but feel I need to do more to make sure I am compensating myself justly.

As always I value and appreciate your input and I hope you feel better soon. I'm definitely going to look into CraftyBase.
I think the $50 range is a good one. All considered, if you aren't close to that it's not worth pursuing if you want to be profitable.
I can think of a dozen makers that are easily in that range.
The market is not very large though.
Automation and or diversification is the only way to lower prices and still make a decent return. Quite a few take this route.
 
Its pretty powerful. It also integrates with marketplace facilitators like Etsy, Shopify, etc.

I start by entering my purchases. You can either enter things as materials, or categorize them as other expenses: consumable supplies, shipping costs, fees, tools and equipment, office expenses, etc. (and add your own categories.)

In my case, I integrate with Etsy. So instead of creating products with CraftyBase, I create my listings in Etsy. CraftyBase then once a day syncs with Etsy, pulling in listings (and it understands things like variants, etc.) and creates Products for me. Those products are linked to the Etsy listing, and CraftyBase will, upon sale, automatically track things like Etsy fees, any shipping costs (if you use the Etsy shipping feature to generate labels), and it will create an Order in CraftyBase for you, linked to that product.

Once you have Products in CraftyBase, you can then create Manufactures. These take some quantities of materials to craft the product(s). The Manufacture is associated with the Product. When the product sells (and CraftyBase will also import sales from Etsy, or other platforms, automatically as well...along with all other costs, fees, etc. associated with the sale), the cost of those materials is automatically accounted for in the Profit and Loss report (as well as several others), which can be used for your COGS when it comes time to do your taxes.

Basically, CraftyBase tracks everything, all the time. You enter your purchases, and either enter your products manually into CraftyBase, or you can let it create them automatically by importing listings or products from third party seller platforms. You use manufactures to track consumption of materials (this is also where you can enter your hourly labor, and there is a global setting for your hourly rate). When you make a sale, you can manually enter an order for that product, associated with the order, which is where you can track all the other costs like tax, fees, shipping, etc. There are a plethora of reports that can be run. You can also export data as CSV and generate your own reports from that, in say Excel or something, if you prefer.
Thanks very much for the info, I'll take a look at this. I've been looking for something like this
 
Thanks very much for the info, I'll take a look at this. I've been looking for something like this
I love it. Take some time to come up with a material naming pattern. I originally just threw materials in there without much thought to the names, often just whatever they were named by whoever I bought from. Same goes for the material codes. However, once I started actually trying to find my materials, it quickly became apparent that I needed a system there (I have accumulated a LOT of materials since 2020, a lot more than I thought, to my surprise).

I now have a pretty good system for both material names and codes, as well as the categories I organize them into. For example, recently, I've been turning these small birch logs into various small items...tealight holders, pedestal candle holders, mushrooms, etc. The materials are named like this:

Log - Paper Birch (2" dia)
Log - Autumn Flame Maple (1.5" dia)
Log - Plum (3" dia)

This makes it easy to search. I can just type "Log - " to find all of that, then the wood type if I want to narrow further, etc. The product codes of the above are also similar:

LOG-2dia-Paper-Birch
LOG-1_5dia-AutumnFlame-Maple
LOG-3dia-Plum

For pens, I have similar patterns:

Pen Kit - Triton [Rollerball] [Gold] [Chrome]
Pen Kit - Vertex [Rollerball] [Magnetic] [Gunmetal]
Pen Kit - Sierra [Ballpoint] [Twist] [Chrome] [Black]
Pen Blank - Curly Maple [Wood] (3/4x5")
Pen Blank - Lava Swirl [Resin] [Alumilite] (7/8"x6")

And the codes:

PEK-RB-GLD-CHR-Triton
PEK-RB-GUM-Mag-Vertex
PEK-BP-TW-CHR-BLK-Sirra
PEB-WD-3/4x5-Curly-Maple
PEB-RES-7/8x6-Alumilite-LavaSwirl


Once I had a system like this, it became FAR easier to create manufactures for each product, and find all the necessary materials. I have this set up for all my materials, including all my bigger project turning blanks, bowl blanks, platter blanks, etc. I also have other materials, such a buttons, beads, countable inlay materials, all that kind of stuff that is easy to track on a per-manufacture basis.

Anything else that can't be easily quantified, ends up being Consumable Supplies, which are those things (such as finishes, paints, stains, small uncountable materials, etc., which are just accounted for in the year of purchase as a lump sum deduction. Even if they might last for years, its just how it ends up working out.
 
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