!We need some Abuse testing!

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Displaced Canadian said:
I do agree that it wouldn't be possible to get completely scientific about this and the info would be a little ad hoc. But I do think it would at least point to somethings that would bear more looking into. To understand the value of ones findings you would have to look at how the test was done. If I put 3 pens on the dashboard of my truck and one starts to have issues we could do more looking into the why. If somebody makes one pen and throws it in the front yard for a week it won't tell you anything.
Questions I would like to see answered are,
Some wood pens over time start to show a little of the brass tube on the ends. Is there a way to prevent this.
Segmented pens can come apart during the drilling process. What type of adhesive holds them together the best?
Is it better to drill a blank with the recommended drill bit and use a little glue or go larger and use a lot of glue?
If a pen made from different materiel wants to come apart while drilling how well is it holding together a year or so later?
Most of these questions have been brought up at different times and a few have been met with the sound of crickets chirping. This could be a way to start to come up with answers to some of these type of questions.
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To me these questions have been talked about many times and all you will get is opinions. There is no scientific answer to any of these questions because of the many many many variables. That is why the crickets are chirping. What works for one may not work for others. Does it make it right or wrong?? Neither, just another way of doing things. Why can't we accept this??? I am at a loss here.
 
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Displaced Canadian said:
I do agree that it wouldn't be possible to get completely scientific about this and the info would be a little ad hoc. But I do think it would at least point to somethings that would bear more looking into. To understand the value of ones findings you would have to look at how the test was done. If I put 3 pens on the dashboard of my truck and one starts to have issues we could do more looking into the why. If somebody makes one pen and throws it in the front yard for a week it won't tell you anything.
Questions I would like to see answered are,
Some wood pens over time start to show a little of the brass tube on the ends. Is there a way to prevent this.
Segmented pens can come apart during the drilling process. What type of adhesive holds them together the best?
Is it better to drill a blank with the recommended drill bit and use a little glue or go larger and use a lot of glue?
If a pen made from different materiel wants to come apart while drilling how well is it holding together a year or so later?
Most of these questions have been brought up at different times and a few have been met with the sound of crickets chirping. This could be a way to start to come up with answers to some of these type of questions.
Click to expand...
A little ad hoc .... that's sort of like being a little pregnant.

You have some good questions there.... would that be segmented wood/wood, or segmented wood/plastic, wood/metal, metal/plastic, metal/metal?, plastic/plastic or some combination. The problem you face is that different combinations might well yield different results. You do want a glue with good shear strength (CA does not have this - Epoxy does)
good heat resistance and the ability to adhere to many different materials.
Starting from there you can probably devise a pretty simple test. Of course you still have the question of whether the glue you use for drilling will hold strong over time....that's a harder question to find the answer to.
 
Perhaps it is time for a little clarity and sanity, also some adult supervision.

...

Let me throw a few words out and some of you *MAY* understand this.

Technical Grade
Extra pure Grade
Pharmacy Grade
Microbiology Grade
Food Grade
Analytical Reagent Grade
Fertilizer Grade


What does all these non-pen related BS words have to do with this thread?

Accuracy and precision. Testing is done in the very same manner.

...

Having a test that is 100% accurate is one thing and that every engineer on the plant would love to do, however you will be working on the same problem for a few billion years for that same engineer to get you 100% results. So you must accept trade off. Keep in mind the results here is not going to NASA nor brain surgeons but to our group and future members. What we do here (IF) will benefit many tuners for a good deal of time so ponder this before you decide to get carried away with the 'non-scientific' and 'ad-hoc' flack.


With a semi-half ass search in the forums A few subjects that could be distributed test worthy came up:

CA finish becomes cloudy.
CA finish with white streaks.
CA finish cracks.
CA finish shattered glass look.
CA finish laminates.
CA finish becomes dull in spots and shiny in others.
CA finish not sticking.
Speckles in CA.
Reverse painting tube/blank and glue bond.
Black palm splitting/blowing out
Buffalo horn cracking months after turning (one of my recent rant reply posts)
plating wear
Tru-stone cracking

I would also like to point out another site that has done some similar testing but in another field. The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing How 'scientific' is these test results? Probably not very. How educational and good is it to show and do these tests? VERY.
 
Easy to solve. Send me all your pens and I'll hand them out to a bunch of Marines (I can include other sister services if I must) and say go forth and break but document how you did it. All I ask for is no culpability in the results or the recordings. That and maybe a few of the pens you make for my own greedy self!
 
Smitty,
Basically the questions you asked in the earlier post is a lot of what I would like to know as well segments that the brass tube goes through and along the tube. I do think the first round of testing will reveal more questions than answers.
I think an easy one to start with is, CA finish is cracking/stained glass look. It has been mentioned that a change in elevation can cause this. I'm not that much above sea level, I could make a pen and let it sit in my shop for a week after it's made then send it to a member who is at the highest elevation we can. Have it stay there not used for 2 weeks then send it back.
 
edstreet said:
Perhaps it is time for a little clarity and sanity, also some adult supervision.

...

Let me throw a few words out and some of you *MAY* understand this.

Technical Grade
Extra pure Grade
Pharmacy Grade
Microbiology Grade
Food Grade
Analytical Reagent Grade
Fertilizer Grade


What does all these non-pen related BS words have to do with this thread?

Accuracy and precision. Testing is done in the very same manner.

...

Having a test that is 100% accurate is one thing and that every engineer on the plant would love to do, however you will be working on the same problem for a few billion years for that same engineer to get you 100% results. So you must accept trade off. Keep in mind the results here is not going to NASA nor brain surgeons but to our group and future members. What we do here (IF) will benefit many tuners for a good deal of time so ponder this before you decide to get carried away with the 'non-scientific' and 'ad-hoc' flack.


With a semi-half ass search in the forums A few subjects that could be distributed test worthy came up:

CA finish becomes cloudy.
CA finish with white streaks.
CA finish cracks.
CA finish shattered glass look.
CA finish laminates.
CA finish becomes dull in spots and shiny in others.
CA finish not sticking.
Speckles in CA.
Reverse painting tube/blank and glue bond.
Black palm splitting/blowing out
Buffalo horn cracking months after turning (one of my recent rant reply posts)
plating wear
Tru-stone cracking

I would also like to point out another site that has done some similar testing but in another field. The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing How 'scientific' is these test results? Probably not very. How educational and good is it to show and do these tests? VERY.
Click to expand...
Hey! Ad hoc is ad hoc the term has a well defined and well understood meaning. Ad hoc results just might or might not apply to the next person that tries the same thing.

That doesn't mean you can't try it if you want to.

Ignore any of the many variables you feel like ignoring and assign any cause you choose to whatever it is your looking at. Who knows you might even guess right now and then.
 
edstreet said:
Perhaps it is time for a little clarity and sanity, also some adult supervision.

...

Let me throw a few words out and some of you *MAY* understand this.

Technical Grade
Extra pure Grade
Pharmacy Grade
Microbiology Grade
Food Grade
Analytical Reagent Grade
Fertilizer Grade


What does all these non-pen related BS words have to do with this thread?

Accuracy and precision. Testing is done in the very same manner.

...

Having a test that is 100% accurate is one thing and that every engineer on the plant would love to do, however you will be working on the same problem for a few billion years for that same engineer to get you 100% results. So you must accept trade off. Keep in mind the results here is not going to NASA nor brain surgeons but to our group and future members. What we do here (IF) will benefit many tuners for a good deal of time so ponder this before you decide to get carried away with the 'non-scientific' and 'ad-hoc' flack.


With a semi-half ass search in the forums A few subjects that could be distributed test worthy came up:

CA finish becomes cloudy.
CA finish with white streaks.
CA finish cracks.
CA finish shattered glass look.
CA finish laminates.
CA finish becomes dull in spots and shiny in others.
CA finish not sticking.
Speckles in CA.
Reverse painting tube/blank and glue bond.
Black palm splitting/blowing out
Buffalo horn cracking months after turning (one of my recent rant reply posts)
plating wear
Tru-stone cracking

I would also like to point out another site that has done some similar testing but in another field. The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing How 'scientific' is these test results? Probably not very. How educational and good is it to show and do these tests? VERY.
Click to expand...


All TRUE. All False. What, you can't have it both ways??? Who says??? Some small sample of testing. Everyone of those examples are true. Now what are you proposing to test for??? Everyone of those is subject to so many variables that it makes no sense. Everyone of those can be attributed to operator error. Everyone of those can be attributed to maker error. As you read through the forums and these problems come up many opinions are stated. I saw this happen I saw that happen. Well it did not happen to me. I never had that happen.

I don't know why I am so adamit about this but I guess I should just shut up and sit back and watch this unfold. Who is going to waste their money on some of those $20 and $40 kits. I am done trying to show reason why this is of little value. But go ahead I am shutting up now. Good luck to all testers. :):):)
 
Displaced Canadian said:
So, what shall we do first and how shall we do it? As for kits I don't pay $40 for any kit so I was thinking slimlines. :biggrin:
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OK now for your suggestion let me list just a few of the variables that might affect your outcome.

The manufacturer of the CA and the type of CA (thick/thin/medium) (fast setting/slow setting)

The depth of the CA is it a thick glassy finish or a thinner glassy finish.

The method of application - how it is applied, how it is smoothed, speed of lathe, any polishing or sanding between coats. the time between coats, the amount of pressure applied when applying the coats.

The temperature and humidity in your shop when it is applied.

I'm sure there are others.

My question is what will you learn if the finished pen develops cracks? Will you learn that altitude has an effect on CA finishes. No you won't, you actually won't know any more about why CA develops cracks at times than you do now.

What will you learn if the finished pen doesn't develop cracks? Again you learn nothing at all.

That doesn't mean it can't be helpful for you to try the test - Perhaps if you do it 25 or 30 times with exactly the same wood and finish (including all of the variables being the same) You could say that - the CA (brand specific) you apply, and the method and thickness that you apply it at, applied to the specific type of lumber will develop cracks when sent from x feet above sea level to y feet above sea level. But you could not say that CA would act the same if applied differently or a different brand of CA was used.
 
Presently this is what I'm thinking. Two pens same kit, wood from the same board, as close as possible to the same thickness of CA, done on the same day. One with thick CA and one with thin. The CA I have is all the same brand. I'm also thinking of the same thing with a stabilized set. Method of application will be a variable because of drying time with thick vs. thin and to get the same thickness there will be more layers with thin.
At this point the question I would be trying to answer is, does the change in elevation effect the finish and if you use thin CA that can soak more into the blank does this counteract the effect of elevation. I do understand that we might just end up with some well traveled pens. If one is cracked and the other isn't then there is another host of questions to look into. I don't think the airplane ride is a factor because I've shipped pens that went by plane to other places of about the same elevation and I've seen them 2 years later and the finish is the same as the day it was sent off. At best we find a way to make a better pen and at worst the troops get 4 nice pens. Either way I can live with those results.
 
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I guess what I can't understand, is why so people are so opposed to this idea. Do I think that we'll get rock solid completely scientific results? No, but so what. What can it possibly hurt for some people to give it a try? If some people here think all this is a waste of time, then I have to ask, why they are wasting their time responding to these posts?

I think is we learn anything from trying, then it's worth the effort. If this should be put in a "Product Testing Forum", then lets do it there.

I personally won't do a lot of testing because I'm not going to go out & Buy 5 different products to test. But If I have something already on hand, and it makes sense to give it a try, then sure, I'll throw in my 2¢ worth.
 
BSea said:
I guess what I can't understand, is why so people are so opposed to this idea. Do I think that we'll get rock solid completely scientific results? No, but so what. What can it possibly hurt for some people to give it a try? If some people here think all this is a waste of time, then I have to ask, why they are wasting their time responding to these posts?

I think is we learn anything from trying, then it's worth the effort. If this should be put in a "Product Testing Forum", then lets do it there.

I personally won't do a lot of testing because I'm not going to go out & Buy 5 different products to test. But If I have something already on hand, and it makes sense to give it a try, then sure, I'll throw in my 2¢ worth.
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Don't mistake someone telling you that you will have only ad hoc results as opposing you doing just whatever you please with your pen kits, blanks, and your lathe. We are simply telling you that whatever your results are, in most (if not all) cases you will not be able to say that you have isolated the cause(s) of any particular problem.

People currently often report problems in finishing barrels and if they resolve the issue, what they did. No one faults them for that. Some also report on experiments they conduct and give the results - no one faults them for that either. But everyone should understand that most of the time the results apply only to the actual (or closely related) items they were working with.

I don't have any skin in the game for what you do with your kits, so I don't care what you do. Having said that, I would still hate to see you waste your time and resources chasing shadows but the final dicision of what you do is entirely up to you.
 
BSea said:
I guess what I can't understand, is why so people are so opposed to this idea. Do I think that we'll get rock solid completely scientific results? No, but so what. What can it possibly hurt for some people to give it a try? If some people here think all this is a waste of time, then I have to ask, why they are wasting their time responding to these posts?

I think is we learn anything from trying, then it's worth the effort. If this should be put in a "Product Testing Forum", then lets do it there.

I personally won't do a lot of testing because I'm not going to go out & Buy 5 different products to test. But If I have something already on hand, and it makes sense to give it a try, then sure, I'll throw in my 2¢ worth.
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Bob I would be one of the one's you are pointing the finger at so I will respond. It is not a case of opposition. Why can't you and the op see that the results are BOGUS and always will be. There is no way you can control any areas of pen making to a specific thing. CA has beeen mentioned There are so many ways to apply CA. So many variables. I keep using that word because there are.
Now here is what I propose. If you have a question or wonderment about any aspect of the pen making then do your own study and experiment but be warned it will only apply to you and you alone. But in your mind you will feel better you have discovered some fact about the way you construct a pen. Now make sure you do exactly that and use those same steps and procedures for all other pens in the future or else things will go wrong. See how stupid that sounds. But have at it. I am not opposed just pointing out true facts.:) Come on people lets see some experiments. :)
 
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