The Best Finish: Possibly debunking some popular techniques. Real data vs subjective observation.

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Steve Wohlgemuth

Steve Wohlgemuth

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Joined
Jul 19, 2014
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Location
Norfolk, VA
Fellow pent turners, as some of you may recall about three years ago I embarked on a scientific journey to come up with answers about the best way to finish a pen. At that time I sent out questionnaires on many websites and Facebook groups and overwhelmingly the most important quality people were striving for was a shiny scratch free surface. With that in mind I proceeded to do a controlled experiment where I changed one variable at a time such as sanding, grits, horizontal sanding, buffing, CA over resins, as well as a variety of other steps. I've been fortunate enough to present my findings at the Midwest Penners Gathering, the mid Atlantic Turners Expo, and the Mid Ohio Valley Pen Turners Gathering. I recently had the good fortune to spend some time at SWAT with Kurt Herzog one of the pioneers in the field . He was very supportive of my efforts which is leading to my continue my journey. One of the things that has gotten in the way of my work has been less than ideal micro photographs, but I've been able to to some gain access to some much higher quality digital stereomicroscopes at a local university. With this I'll be able to capture much clearer and conclusive images. To that end I'm asking my fellow pen turners to let me know what they would like to be evaluated. Although I'm certainly interested in one product versus another, I am more interested in conceptual items such as wet vs dry sanding, sanding, speeds, polishing, micro crystalline waxes versus sandpaper, etc., etc. So please let me know what things you think are critical to achieving as a shiny scratch free a surface as possible. Please don't opine about the merits of a natural feeling, matte finish versus a glossy finish. That is totally a subjective opinion and cannot be tested. Thank you in advance for your input. Mark Dreyer and John Underhill have once again been kind enough to give me some time at the Midwest Pen Turner's Gathering this spring to present my results and my ultimate goal is to get this published in one of our journals.
 
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One of the important variables is the pressure at which the sanding medium is applied . Each of us has to subjectively determine what works best , most consistently , for us . Consistency is a multi-variate problem with constantly changing variables .
 
I would be interested in examining various CA formulas and qualities and their impact on the finish/durability.

For example, you often hear people boasting about applying dozens of layers of CA (presumably of the thin variety), but would a few applications of medium or thick accomplish the same thing with similar results?

Also, do "flexible" CAs offer any benefits/challenges? My assumption is that while you might get a tougher finish, it may not achieve as glossy of a sheen (sheen should be measurable, right?).

Do different brands of CA have different qualities? Do name brand CAs provide any better qualities than generic?

Does CA activator have an impact on the finish one way or another?

If I think of more, I'll post again. @Steve Wohlgemuth , are you able to share any of your research so far? I'm interested to see what comes of all of this!
 
I've tried many finishes, some with pretty good success and some not so good. CA and I don't get along and the first time I tried it I got a bloody nose that lasted for a 1/2 hour. And I mean a bloody nose almost ER worthy. Needless to say, the piece was ruined and my clothes were stained after that. A big mess indeed. And my Doc told me I was probably allergic to CA and to knock it off...so I did. I won't say what my wife called me or any of that. I've also received CA finished pens from others and I've found them to be a bit "lumpy", if that's an adequate response to the pens. A few years back there was a turner from Canada (I think Canada) that has a system that he calls his "dipping method" using wipe on poly. If any other turner reading this knows his name please post it for Steve. I looked at it and realized I'd never used poly on my stuff so I thought, "what the heck, I'll give it a try". Took some practice but I think I've got it pretty well drilled down. I will also say that the "dipping method" the above mentioned turner uses turns out fantastic and is smooth, glossy and without any lumps. I have used two of his blanks that I'm sure were done using this method and I would put it up against any CA finish. So here's what I do on both turned items and my knives.
Day 1
Turn your item and sand down to a minimum of 400 grit, more is better. Make sure it's good and saw dust free and using a blue shop towel (that's what I use) apply a smooth but even amount of WOP on the piece. My lathe is turning at around 2000 rpm. Let dry 24 hours (all of my items get a 24 hour cure time even though it can be done again in around 4 hours in a heated shop).

Day 2
Sand the piece on the lathe using 1000 grit Abranet cloth. You can drop the rpm to around 800 for this turning. Kick the rpm back up to 2000 rpm, wipe off the piece to remove any dust and apply another coat of WOP. Let it dry for 24 hours

Day 3
Do the same as Day 2 but advance the Abranet cloth to 2000 grit. Same lathe speed as shown above.

Day 4 -if you need it
Do the same as Day 2 and 3 but use a 4000 grit Abranet cloth.

Some will say that applying WOP at 2000 rpm is too fast. I've not found that to be the case but instead all the little chunks on the turned item seem to "fly" off leaving a very smooth finish. You'll also "fling" some WOP on your floor or wall but it cleans up relatively easy. I've used this finish for the last 4 or 5 years and never had a complaint at all about my finish. I can't say that for the other finishes I've tried.

Knives I basically follow the same method, no lathe used for obvious reasons, except I use the Beall Buffing System at the end.

All of the stoppers below were finished using this method above.

Good luck on your research and I hope this helps whittle down your research.

Bottle stoppers.jpg
 
Aside from the eternal CA debate Can I ask you examine MELAMINE LACQUER as a finish ?

Sanding along as well as round the blank ( again an eternal discussion ) . Wet v dry sanding at the higher ( 600 grit upwards ) levels .
 
wolf creek knives said:
A few years back there was a turner from Canada (I think Canada) that has a system that he calls his "dipping method" using wipe on poly. If any other turner reading this knows his name please post it for Steve. I looked at it and realized I'd never used poly on my stuff so I thought, "what the heck, I'll give it a try". Took some practice but I think I've got it pretty well drilled down. I will also say that the "dipping method" the above mentioned turner uses turns out fantastic and is smooth, glossy and without any lumps. I have used two of his blanks that I'm sure were done using this method and I would put it up against any CA finish.
Click to expand...
Tom, the chap you are thinking about is called Les Elm.

Pen Finish Dipping Method

No CA Here! Click on the image below to begin download of PDF. Author: Les R. Elm
www.penturners.org
 
wolf creek knives said:
I've tried many finishes, some with pretty good success and some not so good. CA and I don't get along and the first time I tried it I got a bloody nose that lasted for a 1/2 hour. And I mean a bloody nose almost ER worthy. Needless to say, the piece was ruined and my clothes were stained after that. A big mess indeed. And my Doc told me I was probably allergic to CA and to knock it off...so I did. I won't say what my wife called me or any of that. I've also received CA finished pens from others and I've found them to be a bit "lumpy", if that's an adequate response to the pens. A few years back there was a turner from Canada (I think Canada) that has a system that he calls his "dipping method" using wipe on poly. If any other turner reading this knows his name please post it for Steve. I looked at it and realized I'd never used poly on my stuff so I thought, "what the heck, I'll give it a try". Took some practice but I think I've got it pretty well drilled down. I will also say that the "dipping method" the above mentioned turner uses turns out fantastic and is smooth, glossy and without any lumps. I have used two of his blanks that I'm sure were done using this method and I would put it up against any CA finish. So here's what I do on both turned items and my knives.
Day 1
Turn your item and sand down to a minimum of 400 grit, more is better. Make sure it's good and saw dust free and using a blue shop towel (that's what I use) apply a smooth but even amount of WOP on the piece. My lathe is turning at around 2000 rpm. Let dry 24 hours (all of my items get a 24 hour cure time even though it can be done again in around 4 hours in a heated shop).

Day 2
Sand the piece on the lathe using 1000 grit Abranet cloth. You can drop the rpm to around 800 for this turning. Kick the rpm back up to 2000 rpm, wipe off the piece to remove any dust and apply another coat of WOP. Let it dry for 24 hours

Day 3
Do the same as Day 2 but advance the Abranet cloth to 2000 grit. Same lathe speed as shown above.

Day 4 -if you need it
Do the same as Day 2 and 3 but use a 4000 grit Abranet cloth.

Some will say that applying WOP at 2000 rpm is too fast. I've not found that to be the case but instead all the little chunks on the turned item seem to "fly" off leaving a very smooth finish. You'll also "fling" some WOP on your floor or wall but it cleans up relatively easy. I've used this finish for the last 4 or 5 years and never had a complaint at all about my finish. I can't say that for the other finishes I've tried.

Knives I basically follow the same method, no lathe used for obvious reasons, except I use the Beall Buffing System at the end.

All of the stoppers below were finished using this method above.

Good luck on your research and I hope this helps whittle down your research.

View attachment 380915
Click to expand...
My friend Alan Morrison got his name for me and his IAP address. Les Elm @rd_ab_penman and he's posted his work on this site.
 
KMCloonan said:
For the Dip method, would MinWax Polycrylic (water based) work? I am concerned about VOCs with regular polyurethane.
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Yes. That has been around for many years. He did not invent that. You can do it with paint too. Maybe his method of holding the tubes is better way I do not know. You need to be able to close off the inside of the tube to prevent getting anything in it. Corks or plugs work well.


If we are going to talk CA so many other factors come into play so I do not think any study will find right or wrong answers. I will say this there was a fella here that did a whole study on CA finishes because this came up and still does over and over again. But many years ago Toni's husband Edstreet did a whole study on CA glues and he would be one to contact for info and studys. He has proven that flex CA is much better than harden CA as a finish and also adhering tubes because of the flex ingredient. He is a member here.
 
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KenV hasn't been on in a long time but he also (from Canada) mentioned the dip method using lacquer.
Interesting reads and links:

Flexner on Pen Finishes

From one of the masters of finishing --- Finish for Wooden Pens - Popular Woodworking Magazine "......So my recommendation for an alternative finish to CA glue is pre-catalyzed lacquer. It also crosslinks. It is sold in small containers by Craft Supplies as “Melamine.” The product...
www.penturners.org
 
leehljp said:
KenV hasn't been on in a long time but he also (from Canada) mentioned the dip method using lacquer.
Interesting reads and links:

Flexner on Pen Finishes

From one of the masters of finishing --- Finish for Wooden Pens - Popular Woodworking Magazine "......So my recommendation for an alternative finish to CA glue is pre-catalyzed lacquer. It also crosslinks. It is sold in small containers by Craft Supplies as “Melamine.” The product...
www.penturners.org
Click to expand...
This is Phil Dart's excellent paper on Melamine Lacquer.

Beaufort Ink - Achieving success with melamine as a pen finish

Achieving success with melamine as a pen finish
www.beaufortink.co.uk www.beaufortink.co.uk
 
Back to Steve's OP, thanks for doing this.
So please let me know what things you think are critical to achieving as a shiny scratch free a surface as possible.
Click to expand...

The subjectivity side is huge: 1. Experience, 2. Giftedness 3. Determination - and they are not necessarily related. My background was a few pens that were not great with the finish. Then instead of making a pen, I spent a day doing nothing but practicing with CA learning its characteristics. VERY helpful.

Necessary instrument: VERY Good and bright lights - for me - 4ft 5000K LED over, from slightly behind, slightly in front. Nothing tells the quality of the shine like great lighting or outdoor sun light or outdoor lightly overcast. You spoke of photography and micro-photography. Great, but when finishing, a great pen finish should not be a hit or miss that only shows up in micro-photography. LIGHT, the right light allows one to see how well the finish is developing. Yes, this is a subjective aspect, but we are not robots.

Many sand with the lathe off. I do not and have never done that. I don't have lumps or unevenness or waves or holes. I do not have circles from sanding it with the lathe turning either. That is an experience thing.

I learned one thing by accident, or necessity rather, in some circumstances I can finish a pen coated with a thick coat of CA with a very sharp HSS scraper instead of using sandpaper. I will buff to bring out the shine a little more. I generally use the scrapper method instead of sandpaper on segmented pens. Segmenting and sanding usually do not work well together.

I look forward to seeing your paper on CA finish. Thank you for your work!
 
Yes, it was Red Deer Alberta Penman rd_ab_penman

pen dipping finish

I wasn't aware that there is a pen dipping finish some turners use on there pens,,i was told you could find some info in the library but I cant seem to find any,,but I did see one video on you tube and it seemed like a good finish,,can anyone add anything to this process and the finish they...
www.penturners.org
 
I bet you can do the same thing with thin CA. I have never tried it but someone may want to give it a shot. May even be able to do it with an epoxy resin like Liquid diamonds. Just need the liquid to stick to substrate and drain off. Just like when they paint cars. Not inventing the light bulb here.
 
Durability and the longevity of waxes is very important to me. I want pens to look as good after 10 years of use as they looked when I sold them. Some waxes make pens look scratch free, but after a few years the wax has either evaporated or worn off.

What is the purpose of wax? Cover up micro scratches? Or eliminate the scratches.

I stopped using waxes years ago. I acknowledge that a good plastic wax will make a pen more scratch free, but it won't last. I don't know the best method to achieve scratch free is, but my method for resin pens is overlapping sanding techniques:
1. 4 grits of sand paper up to 600
2. 9 wet micro sanding pads up to 2,000
3. 2 levels of buffing
It overlaps in the sense that the lowest level with steps 2 and 3 are less abrasive than the highest level of the two previous steps.
 
What is the purpose of wax? Cover up micro scratches? Or eliminate the scratches.

Wax comes in various forms and ingredients so no one wax does it all. You ask does it cover scratches or prevent scratches. It can do both to some degree. But remember wax is a product that is a thin film. Now there are waxes with oil in them and they can cover up scratches and you can get colored waxes that can blend woods. Think of the wood filler pencils. They are wax. Wax does wear off and thus needs maintenance and reapplications. It can leave a pen feel like real wood. But it also can build up and become grundgy looking. If you are looking to sell a pen with a durable finish, wax or polish is definitely not it.
 
Steve, to your question about what to test, I find the data to be highly subjective as to whether or not shellac-based finishes (friction polishes, shellac-wax or shellac-wax-oil blends like PensPlus) are durable. Some say yes, some say no, it all seems anecdotal. Nice to have some data.

Also, for CA finishes, we all have a gut feeling, from our experience with shellac and varnish, that the more a CA finish has cured, the higher the sheen obtainable. And yet, I (and others) get great results shortly after applying a CA finish. The manufacturers are not much help (e.g. GluBoost, the brand I use, says cure "as long as possible" or "overnight is better".) Temperature and humidity will of course be variables, but given reasonable conditions, it would be nice to have some objective data on whether or not a substantial curing period produces a measurably or discernibly higher sheen.

Thanks for doing this, it will be a very useful project.
 
Chasper said:
Durability and the longevity of waxes is very important to me. I want pens to look as good after 10 years of use as they looked when I sold them. Some waxes make pens look scratch free, but after a few years the wax has either evaporated or worn off.

What is the purpose of wax? Cover up micro scratches? Or eliminate the scratches.

I stopped using waxes years ago. I acknowledge that a good plastic wax will make a pen more scratch free, but it won't last. I don't know the best method to achieve scratch free is, but my method for resin pens is overlapping sanding techniques:
1. 4 grits of sand paper up to 600
2. 9 wet micro sanding pads up to 2,000
3. 2 levels of buffing
It overlaps in the sense that the lowest level with steps 2 and 3 are less abrasive than the highest level of the two previous steps.
Click to expand...
For the most part, Waxes are archaic by today's standards. In long years gone by, Wax of different kinds was a preservative, a finish and an enricher for wood, BUT it was expected to be done weekly, by-weekly or once a month and was a part of the routine as much as eating or heating etc. It was a part of life for those who owned nice wood products as much as was the polishing silver utensils regularly.

That said, our culture today does not do that and I think we can hardly conceive of putting that much time in with such frequency for Waxes to work like they were originally intended. For this reason, waxing for the most part has become archaic. But for the FEW who know wax and clean and wax their pens with regularity, Wax is not archaic.
 
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