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Could someone give me an example of the political correctness that stifles comments in SOYP?

My recollection is that we shut down the Critiques forum because of arguments between a few members.
 
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I think maybe a whole new topic is needed to talk about this.[:D]

Edited to clarify meaning of "this" - discussion of critical comments about pens.
 
Gerry,

It's been discussed "ad nauseum". The discussion on the forum leads to e-mails to the management which leads to problems.

Why start it again. Learn from history.[:D][:D][:D]
 
Ed,
I know that, you know that, but there are some who don't. This topic was about Scott's site and it seems to have been waylaid.
 
You're right. Sorry.

I liked Scott's site, how about you?

(Now, I tried to get it back on topic, but if I succeed, my place is to "shut up" as part of "middle management".)[:)]
 
Originally posted by jeff
<br />Could someone give me an example of the political correctness that stifles comments in SOYP?

My recollection is that we shut down the Critiques forum because of arguments between a few members.

Jeff, I don't think there is one thread in particular that can be pointed to as an example, instead look at all the photo threads and read the replies in them. I think most folks are very nice with their comments and I personally haven't seen anyone make any negative comments on anyones work yet.

I think that, in itself is the answer to your question. Surely of all the pens displayed and all the members viewing them, odds are that there are at least a few pens around that could use a little more work or a few folks that just don't care for what they see... but you wouldn't know it from reading the reviews. Perhaps everyone is gun shy or afraid of being branded a trouble maker. That is what I meant about being politically correct.

I think it's a shame that "arguments between a few members" has stiffled straight forward, honest replies and robbed others from learning from their own mistakes or gaining knowledge from the seasoned veterans here. But what do I know, I wasn't around to see what it was like.

George
 
Ed & Gerry, y'all are so bad. Hijackin' this poor thread [:p]
It's good, I think it's gone in a good direction and Mudder got thanked too.

For me, I'm gonna try a couple of things: posting less in SOYP while still uploading to my album. And, when I post to SOYPs, I'm gonna let'cha know I want real critical feedback -- I don't need ya to aim the leaf blower my way. My thick skin will protect me [:D]

Heck, I may even intrude on ya with a PM if it's a pen I think is real close to top-notch.[;)]

Gary
 
Originally posted by gerryr
<br />This topic was about Scott's site and it seems to have been waylaid.

I don’t mind that the thread got waylaid as long as something constructive comes of it.

I would like to share my thoughts as to why a critiques forum is doomed to fail.

Not everyone has the same quality of photographic equipment nor do they possess the same photographic skills.

Sometimes different plating photographed from different angles will give the illusion of poor fit. (How many times have we heard members say that another member’s pen looks better in person?) Chrome is son that seems to cause this.

Sometimes we can hide obvious flaws can be hidden by our photographic technique.

We have some members who have a disdain for anything but wood and every acrylic pen got the comment “It looks like a 29 cent pen from Wal-Mart†Where is the constructive criticism in that type of remark? Others have a similar dislike for a particular kit and personal opinion is too often given as criticism and I do not believe that personal opinion should enter into a critique.

It is often very hard to take when you are quite proud of something and another person does not share that enthusiasm.

Sometimes it is not possible to give an honest opinion from a single photograph.

I could come up with a lot more reasons but I’m pressed for time.


How about a few ideas as to how it could work?

Could pictures be taken using a guideline like a neutral background for example?

How about if the pictures were sent to a moderator and posted anonymously?

Probably a very bad idea but what if the replies were posted anonymously?

What if the critiques forum was closed and you had to request to get in?

Here are a few possibilities; lets hear opinions form more of our members.
 
OK, with Scott's blessing to the direction of this, I will add a few comments about what makes a critique forum so difficult.

Starting with the photos. I haven't counted it up nor do I plan to, but I'm guessing that maybe 1/2 the photos in SOYP are not adequate to really judge what a pen looks like. A large percentage of the not so great photos are so dark it's sometimes hard to tell what it is. I've even seen photos that were just plain out of focus. You can't say "Sorry for the bad photos, but please critique this pen." If the white balance is off, I personally have trouble getting around that and with the cost of digital camera sophistication dropping daily, there really isn't any excuse for it. I think the same applies to a light box. I built mine out of PVC pipe for less than $10 and good CFL bulbs are available at HD and Lowe's at very good prices. More than one photograph would really be needed, probably a couple of extreme closeups in addition to the overall photo.

I personally think Scott's idea of photos being posted by a moderator would work. I also think guidelines would need to be established about the background for the photos, like a plain white or beige background. Too often the backgrounds are very confusing and even distracting. I don't think comments should be anonymous, either you are willing to stand by your comment or you should not be allowed to make it. I'm not sure I understand about a closed forum that you had to request to get in.
 
Gerry,

At least for a moment, I will take the other side of your argument. I did not "Major in penturning", completely prepared to "Minor in photography".

And, having helped Scott with his site, "approving" members had a time lag. Meanwhile the member sits and wonders if he or she isn't living up to your standards, before you even MEET. How much more would you wonder if you sent a picture to a moderator panel at noon, your time, and no one posted or got back to you for several hours?? And, what if the moderators think your picture sucks, so they don't REALLY WANT to post it for all to see???

And suppose the moderator panel has a certain member they don't like? Will they then not post his/her work, as asked?

Just a few of the questions that anonymity might raise.



Besides, we all know your mother wears combat boots and your grandfather's whereabouts were UNKNOWN at the time of Abraham Lincoln's attendance at a certain play!!! But, YOU are a nice guy[8D][8D]
 
I like the idea of a critique forum. I don't like the idea of any anonymity in that forum at all. I think anonymity carries with it the potential for huge problems. The more disclosure in a forum like this, the more people will be reminded to mind their p's and q's.
I also like the SOYP forum. I will browse to see new pens but never read the comments. They're always the same thing.
Critiques could be of both the pen and the photography.
A certain number of posts (1000?) could be a requirement for critiquing in the thread. Is that possible? Another thought is asking and receiving permission to post critiques. You have to prove that you know what you're talking about. Don't you have to go through an approval process to become a member of the PMG? If the intent of the thread is constructive criticism, why not here?
That being said, I did enjoy the other forum but honestly I spent a lot more time here because of the variety.
 
white balance... light boxes... CFL bulbs... No wonder I'm not getting it, I'm in way over my head![:)]

I thought you made a pen, shined it up, put it on a clean piece of fancy cloth, snapped a photo of it then hit upload.

Heck, I don't even think my poor ole Kodak 4 megapixel camera knows if it's out of white balance or not! Is there a dipstick somewhere to check?

I got a new scroll saw today so I think I'll go out to the shop and tinker.

George
 
OK, I guess I'll get back into this, possibly against my intuition.

I don't like the idea of a "panel" of moderators. I think if there were 2 or 3 people who are reasonably proficient at making and photographing pens, any of them could decide to post a photo. The photo could be mailed to something like "critique at penturners dot org" and the email could be forwarded to however many moderators there were. Whoever had the time could then post it. That should take the wind out of your sails, Ed.[}:)]

As far as the maker being anonymous, I think it has an advantage. Some people might be intimidated by the maker's reputation and be afraid to post anything critical. The comments would not be anonymous. I think that having the maker anonymous would actually help people behave, since they could be commenting on a pen made by their buddy. Posts like "That's a crappy pen" should just be deleted since that doesn't offer anything constructive. Comments should be limited to constructive criticism, no questions about how something was done. If the maker wanted to identify him/herself after say a week or so, that should be OK.

I think any registered user should be allowed to post. I think it would be self limiting. I know it was a long time after I registered before I ever posted a comment about someone's pen. It was even longer before I had the nerve to post a pen in SOYP. I don't think people just getting started would post comments in a critiques forum.

As far as needing a minor in photography, tough nuggies, Ed![:D] Seriously, nobody can expect constructive comments about their work, if the picture is out of focus, under or over exposed or the white balance is off. Providing constructive comments is hard enough from just a photo, even a very good one. It's virtually impossible from a bad photo.
 
gerry, I wouldn't worry. I've seen lots of crap in senior penmakers' albums. I don't think we need anonymous posts for critiques, but I think we need a set of standards for posting photos. I too am one who feels that posts should not be made with fuzzy photos or dark exposures. I also think that any post made with looks goo, nice work should be deleted immediately. if it is good enough to get a positive comment, post why it's positive or either don't post or post why it could look better in your opinion. if people can't take some constructive criticism, then maybe they should listen to their significant other and not post their work for everyone else in the world to see. It may seem a bit harsh, but we all come here to learn and you won't learn a thing with a bunch of nice work comments.
 
Another poster suggested 1000 posts as a benchmark to allow members to critique others work. That, in itself is nothing to judge a persons judgment by.

In an RV forum that I have been a member of for almost five years, I have often seen discussions where the number of posts erroneously are used to judge a persons "value" to the forum. Some members can rack up hundreds of posts just telling jokes while the most seasoned RV'er with sage advice might have just joined the forum with only a handful of posts.

I don't see the value of hiding ones identity just to offer a fellow member their opinion of their work.

I've just gotta ask... Is it possible that we are making way too big of a deal over critiquing pens? It's not like we're posting photos of our wives, asking if they're ugly or not!

George
 
What I see that causes controversy at times is the definition difference and perception skew between a critique and a criticism. Both are very similar with one main difference. A criticism is meant to disqualify; to tear down; to demean by pointing out flaws. A critique points out flaws but with an objective manner, that which is to help to better one's ability.

If the poster truly is wanting to better their ability, they will embrace the critique and overlook the harshness of a criticism yet search it for any truth. If the poster is simply wanting praise, then anything but appears as criticism. I have seen this not only from new turners here but also from seasoned and well established craftsmen/women.
 
IMO, several things cause controversy and most are avoidable. People don't write clearly and their meaning doesn't come thru. Then the reader adds their personal baggage to what's written, twists it even more, and <b>whammo</b> insults start flying.
If we're gonna have useful critiques it requires NOT ONLY good photos but posts that are specific and explicit in what's communicated, folks who will re-read their posts before hitting "Submit Reply", and rhino-skin. The old adage is approriate here: If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I, for one, will take all the harsh criticism y'all can dish out on my work if it helps me become a master at the game. [;)]

Gary
 
I was the one that posted an arbitrary number. I do realize that posts have nothing to do with ability. Having just gone over the 200 post mark, I'm living proof of that. I did post the picture of the 5 cigars but mainly because 3 of the blanks were Ed's and they're great. I was simply suggesting a possible qualifying benchmark for being permitted to critique someones work.

alamocdc, I would be proud to have any of the 3 you mentioned critique my work. You just have to wait until I get better.
 
After reading this topic, I have a suggestion regarding critiques that may be a workable solution for the aforementioned concerns.

First, submit a photo on any background to a proctor which will have the ability to submit the pen photo to a panel of jurists with the submission information regarding the pen.

Second, the jurist panel selected from a pool of volunteers would review the photo of the pen and submit a critique of both the pen and photo.

Third, upon receipt of the critiques and with the approval of the pen maker, the critiques and the photo of the pen be posted into a separate forum for discussion of both the pen and the critiques.

I think this will provide a pen maker with a constructive critique of his pen making and photographic abilities, give the pen maker the option to post the pen and critiques to the comments of the general forum population and give everyone including the jury the ability to review the process and comment on everything.

This would require a commitment of a lot of people, but it would be more helpful than the "nice pen" comments that are in the SOYP category.

DFM
 
Donald,
I think your post is too restrictive. I believe that anyone who sees the pen posted should
be able to critique what they see. Look at some of the folks who post infrequently yet do really fine work: Lou, Christian, Barry B., YOU! ... I could on and on.
What if the jurist panel doesn't include folks whose opinion I value?
What if the new guy to IAP happens to be a natural, like George (Texatdurango)?

To my way of seeing it, if someone is willing to ask for critiques, they ought to be able to accept a serious critique from anyone. And anyone who abuses the privilege of critiquing would be banned from posting.

Gary
 
Donald and Gary point out two of the problems with a structured critiques forum. #1 Anything that makes everyone happy with be a huge effort to administer. The jury is a nice idea, but getting volunteers to stick with something that requires a lot of work is a problem. #2 It's impossible to make everyone happy!

If someone can come up with an idea on the mechanics of running a critiques forum that that a large percentage of people can agree on, we'll give it another try.

Lets discuss here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24584
 
Originally posted by jeff
<br />Just curious...

Was Scott's site better in some way or just "different" ?? I can understand the appeal of somewhere new and different, but was there some fundamental difference between there and here? jeffj12 said "There was a good exchange of ideas, good company and some great looking pens." and isn't that exactly what we have here?

We're always trying to improve this place, and if there is some good that can come out of Scott's site closing down, let's find it and apply it here.

Jeff, A little late. but I wanted to give my two cents on your question.
I liked Scott's site because it was smaller and more personal. I was one of the first couple dozen to register and that made me feel good, to get in on the ground floor of the site. I felt a part of something new and it made me feel more like one of the guys. This site is wonderfully and I receive tons of great info and have met several great people,,,,,,buuuuuuut, sometimes I feel a bit lost in the crowd. Thats just me, and I except it.
You do a wonderful job here and I fully enjoy my time with all of you.
I hope this was all taken in the best way and you understand what I was trying to say.
 
Originally posted by Mudder
<br />

At first I had thought of asking Jeff to delete my account or to change my name to something that would not be as recognizable but I realized that it would not change anything. Instead I have decided to handle it a different way.

I will not run.
I will not hide.
And I'm not going to go away, so you're stuck with me [:p]


Thank you,

Scott Hettel

Scott,
I wanted to post this separately from the one above in hopes you will see it. "Don't" run and "Don't" hide. What you tried to do was great. Never apologize for doing the best you can.
I will miss the site, but I will go on. And we know we will be able to contact you here if we choose. So don't let it get to you and don't feel the need to disappear. I for one, and I hope the rest of us, hold no ill feeling of any sort toward you.
Thank you again for the effort.
 
Scott Sorry to see your sight to get shut down. You definitely did fail. The short time I was there I enjoyed the honesty there. I know for me posting some pictures here fear kicks in with being so photographic disabled but there you guys commented on the pen not my photo. that just my opinion but I want to say especially to mudder..THANKS For the effort you did put in there and Good on you for staying who you are. Good on you
Toni
 
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