Some FACTS about copyright

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I have a few comments on this subject...


Here is the question to consider...Who is given credit for the idea of Natural Selection? Charles Darwin.
Who was the first person to publish the idea?

NOT HIM!!

Why is he given credit? The reason is that he was able to set a precedent that the idea was his before the other published and presented. How did he do that? He actually mailed his original document, origin of species to another colleague in the US before the other was published. This dating of the work had set the precedent of his document being the first work and thus he was given the credit.

I would think that posting pictures and explanations on a website would also set a precedent. I am not a lawyer, but if someone stole your idea and tried to copy that same exact idea and sell it, you would have the legal right to it.

Interesting conversation I must admit!!

Grub
 
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maxwell_smart007 said:
Let's remember that we should discuss ideas - not individuals; some of these statements above are beginning to attack individuals...

From the Acceptable Use Policy:
No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.
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Andrew, I must have missed what you are referring too, I don't see individuals being ATTACKED. Thanks for posting the forum policy but since this whole topic started because someone made an issue out of something, then isn't including that individuals actions in the conversation appropriate? At least then, everyone will know what the heck this is all about!
 
But that's a theory, not an application... Every theory has been copyrighted, but applications are either patents, or cannot be copyrighted. the theory of Natural selection may be copyrighted so noone can publish their own "The origin of species" however, if someone wanted to study the archipelagos and apply their own research and time into their own theory, this would not be covered under the copyright because it stemmed from their own research and data.

grub32 said:
I have a few comments on this subject...


Here is the question to consider...Who is given credit for the idea of Natural Selection? Charles Darwin.
Who was the first person to publish the idea?

NOT HIM!!

Why is he given credit? The reason is that he was able to set a precedent that the idea was his before the other published and presented. How did he do that? He actually mailed his original document, origin of species to another colleague in the US before the other was published. This dating of the work had set the precedent of his document being the first work and thus he was given the credit.

I would think that posting pictures and explanations on a website would also set a precedent. I am not a lawyer, but if someone stole your idea and tried to copy that same exact idea and sell it, you would have the legal right to it.

Interesting conversation I must admit!!

Grub
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skiprat said:
LOL, well I'm not really into gang banging anyone, so I won't add my thoughts on the particular artist ( but let's face it guys, he is an artist )

BUT....:biggrin: as many people suggest, it's open season on watch-part-pens, so I snuck up to my son's bedroom and nicked his watch!!:eek:

Getting it apart was a doddle !!!:wink:

Only one snag:redface: There's only about 4 bits in it and the one or two gears are plastic......

Someone might have told me that it should be an analogue windery uppery one!!!!:mad:

Ya think I'll get it back together before he comes home?:tongue:
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Too funny!
 
I can't see how the watch pen can have a copyright simply because it uses items that are patented by another company. Beyond that though, there are things in pens that can be copyrighted as artistic expression. This does not hold strong in court though. As we have recently discussed with the leaf pens. The #1 thing the copyright on the concept will do is prevent someone else from claiming they invented it. It does not prevent someone from running with the idea and mass producing it. I mention my copyright on that pen, which is 100% made by me, not recycled from something else, because I want it to be known that it was born from my imagination and also hope to achieve some respect that someone will not begin to mass produce it. If some company did mass produce it, the only thing I can stop is them saying they invented it, and because it is documented that they did not invent it, they can also not patent it. I hope for the respect of one artists mind to another, as I freely offer out my idea's for others to use and simply ask that they limit their use with some common sense, like go ahead make a few leaf pens, sell the finished pens, no problem, but please don't make 50 blanks and be selling the blanks and all that. I'm sure you guys understand this. I don't feel the leaf pen is something I can ever make a fortune on because it is too labor intensive, otherwise I would have put it through as a design patent. The leaf pen, a watch part pen, a label pen, none of those are patentable, but any of them can be design patented provided the watch parts and labels are not copyright/trademark/patented by someone else of course. I have a lawyer and have discussed it all with him. My pen idea's are safe only in that they were born from me. Any safety beyond that is by whatever your morals tell you what to do out of respect for me. My artwork though..that is completely different, it is totally safe. If you take one of my original intarsia's and think you can alter it by 10-15% and get away with it as your own, you are very mistaken!

Oh, and btw..if you come up with a pen concept that is very unique from anything else and want to protect it, you have only 1 yr from it's conception to file a design patent on it and you must not show the concept to anyone until the patent is approved. A design patent is similar to a copyright for actual artwork. It is quite solid and a person has to make some serious changes to your design in order to avoid complications. A patent is going to protect the design and the entire concept/process. A patent on a pen is most difficult to achieve. Not impossible, but you have to prove beyond any doubt how this pen is so much different than the several hundred construction type patents that already exist for pens. The design patent is the most affordable option that offers any type of solid protection for people in our positions.
 
Boy, I wish I could go back a few days and unpost my photos knowing now what this has caused. Sorry for inciting a riot. I really displayed it in the interest of our evolving craft. BTW, that is too funny about the battery powered watch. Yes, wind ups and autowinds are the preferred watches to use. If anyone has any questions or issues feel free to PM me.

Regards,


Jeff Tate
 
What do I really want from people? I just want a little respect. Not bowed down to or anything crazy like that, I just want a little recognition for my brain output. A simple..inspired by... would be great. I took ....'s ideas and turned them into this. Is that too much? Imitation is flattery. You might imitate better than the original! Either way..the original deserves a touch of respect....at least once in awhile. Just my thoughts and feelings about the real root of the issue. If we didn't want to share, we wouldn't be here.

The watch pen inspired me. But my interpretation is probably way different than many others. I'm going to attempt to make a "watch" pen, but there will be no watch parts in it. The gears have really been whirling in my head all day! Whatever you are thinking about what I am thinking..you're probably not right.:biggrin:
 
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I got all excited about making my own "watch workings" pen so I gathered up all our extra watches and not until dissassembling the fourth watch did I realize they are all digital and pretty much look the same inside! :eek:
 
Here are my thoughts. First I assume the idea to even copywriter a design comes from the idea that "Hey I worked hoard coming up with this idea and I want to be the one that is able to sell it". On this group it could also be an attempt to keep suppliers from being able to copy it. From information this thread it will not do either when it comes to something like a watch parts pen. It also displays a huge lack of understanding of the percentage of people that would actually cast their own even if they have the ability. the idea that people can be prevented from making pen blanks with watch parts is as ridiculous as saying hey I cast blanks with Alumilite so nobody else can. Okay so that is a bit broad. Maybe I make red and white blanks with Alumilite now can I keep other from making them. Nope don't think that one will fly either. Right so I make red and white swirly Alumilite blanks. Nope still not good enough. Fine I make a read and white swirly Alumilite blank with a horses head in it. okay now maybe we are getting somewhere and it will only apply to that exact horse head and it would most likely apply to any blank with that exact horses head on it. In truth it does little else than shows how far out of touch a particular member could be with the group. that they will display their Copyright blanks right next to every blank they "Borrowed" from others only shows they are concerned others will do to them what they have done to others. It sounds to me that they are concerned others will simply take their idea and profit from it just as they have been profiting from others ideas. It that a bad thing in either case? I think that is probably a personal decision and i also think it is revealing about character and purpose of the person making that decision. I try to sell items at very low process and without a profit in order to advance the craft of pen making. Others do what they do to further their personal finances. I will in fact step away from my non profit activities and allow a for profit venture to replace it. There is more motivation and more accountability they also have more reason to keep the product available. so there is both good and bad as it is on most cases.
 
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jtdesigns said:
Boy, I wish I could go back a few days and unpost my photos knowing now what this has caused. Sorry for inciting a riot. I really displayed it in the interest of our evolving craft. BTW, that is too funny about the battery powered watch. Yes, wind ups and autowinds are the preferred watches to use. If anyone has any questions or issues feel free to PM me.

Regards,


Jeff Tate
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Hey Jeff don't take this the wrong way but we have been down this road before. So you did not break any new ground here. Ask Barry why he does not participate much here any more. But he does seem to follow us.

At least it made for some interesting dialog. Keep up the good work and good luck on the entry in the jury show.
 
kennspens said:
does anyone know what barry gross's take is on the subject?
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Jeff apologized and I accepted - here are my thoughts - Intellectual Property can be copyrighted. When I publish my books the publisher and I both enjoy a copyright for that book or DVD. I did extensive research on the idea of placing watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels and fsihing fly lures on pen tubes and casting them in clear acrylic. This is call a "derivative work" and as such I can use watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels etc, because I am NOT selling a brand name watch, or beer or a cigar. I am using discarded material and creating a piece of art.
Yes, at the AAW I explainded how to make some of these pens and if you looked closely at the powerpoint presentation, there was a copyright symbol on the Eco-Friendly pens. I also said that I did not mind nor do I mind if you choose to make one for yourself but I do mind if you commercially market the pens as your own creation.
Jeff and I met in Ohio at the pen show and we did speak on the phone several timesa since the show. I coached him on how to make the watch pen because he told me he wanted to make one for his father and himself and when I saw the posting on this site stating "My Latest Creations--Complexity of Time" and "This is from my Complexity of Time Series." Which implies that its his idea, and certainly states that he has made more, and will continue - by saying it's a series. That is where I have to draw a line in the sand to protect my intellectual property! - Barry Gross
__________________
Barry Gross
 
I never understood how someone can claim that they are the "first" to do something (aside from maybe walking on the moon). Especially in pen making. Can you imagine how many penmakers there are who have never been to this forum? Just because we have never seen pictures of a certain type of pen before doesn't mean that no one else has ever created one...
 
I do not think that Barry's pen qualify as "derivative works". I found this link that describes what is a derivative work and how it has to be filed.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

Can Barry provide us with a copy of his Copyright? Just because I put a "c" by somthing does not make it a registered copyright.

As for using the names and trademarks, Barry is right, there is no infringement on the trademarks. He is not making a product that represents that company. Anyone can use the caps in the pens without worry from those companies in which their trademark is used. Using caps in pens would not fall under copyright law, it would fall under patent law as it is a process. I agree that you would have to duplicate his work in order for it to be a copyright infringement.

I also appologize if any of my comments have been construde as "personal attacks".
 
ROOKIETURNER said:
Can Barry provide us with a copy of his Copyright? Just because I put a "c" by somthing does not make it a registered copyright.
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Actually, I think it does.
(perhaps not 'registered' copyright, but copyrights do not have to be
registered.. registrations simply strengthen the protection)
Copyright exists upon creation.
It can be challenged, of course .. but putting that little
c symbol on something does, in fact, make it known that there is
a copyright claim.
 
NewLondon88 said:
Actually, I think it does.
(perhaps not 'registered' copyright, but copyrights do not have to be
registered.. registrations simply strengthen the protection)
Copyright exists upon creation.
It can be challenged, of course .. but putting that little
c symbol on something does, in fact, make it known that there is
a copyright claim.
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http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#register
Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section


I searched the copyright records for items by Barry Gross and there are only 7 items filed and none are pens, pen turning, ect.
http://www.copyright.gov/records/
 
NewLondon88 said:
Actually, I think it does.
(perhaps not 'registered' copyright, but copyrights do not have to be
registered.. registrations simply strengthen the protection)
Copyright exists upon creation.
It can be challenged, of course .. but putting that little
c symbol on something does, in fact, make it known that there is
a copyright claim.
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Yes, my point was that he indicated that it was a registered copyright. Hence the reason I said putting a c by does not mean that it is a registered copy right, and the copyright does not cover the general usage of watch parts in a pen.
 
ROOKIETURNER said:
As for using the names and trademarks, Barry is right, there is no infringement on the trademarks. He is not making a product that represents that company.
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Thats not true. Put a trademark logo that you do not hold the rights to on anything and make a profit from it and that is trademark infringement. This is why you cannot make your own NFL jerseys and sell them. Your turning a profit on a trademarked logo or team name. If one of his beer cap pens shows a beer logo and he sells it that is infringement.

Actually you don't even have to sell it for it to be infringement. Google "louis vuitton sues Brittany spears, MTV, Sony BMG" you will see what I mean. You only have to lessen the value of the trademarked logo. All they did was put a louis vuitton logo on a dash of a car for a video and they got nailed for infringement. 3 minute video ended up costing Sony BMG and MTV each over $100,000.
 
jocat54 said:
Jeff apologized and I accepted - here are my thoughts - Intellectual Property can be copyrighted. When I publish my books the publisher and I both enjoy a copyright for that book or DVD. I did extensive research on the idea of placing watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels and fsihing fly lures on pen tubes and casting them in clear acrylic. This is call a "derivative work" and as such I can use watch parts, beer caps, cigar labels etc, because I am NOT selling a brand name watch, or beer or a cigar. I am using discarded material and creating a piece of art.
Yes, at the AAW I explainded how to make some of these pens and if you looked closely at the powerpoint presentation, there was a copyright symbol on the Eco-Friendly pens. I also said that I did not mind nor do I mind if you choose to make one for yourself but I do mind if you commercially market the pens as your own creation.
Jeff and I met in Ohio at the pen show and we did speak on the phone several timesa since the show. I coached him on how to make the watch pen because he told me he wanted to make one for his father and himself and when I saw the posting on this site stating "My Latest Creations--Complexity of Time" and "This is from my Complexity of Time Series." Which implies that its his idea, and certainly states that he has made more, and will continue - by saying it's a series. That is where I have to draw a line in the sand to protect my intellectual property! - Barry Gross
__________________
Barry Gross
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My question is this. If you don't want people to copy your idea, then why tell them how to do it in a book or video. Let them figure it out for themselves. Just my opinion.
 
Canedriver said:
Thats not true. Put a trademark logo that you do not hold the rights to on anything and make a profit from it and that is trademark infringement. This is why you cannot make your own NFL jerseys and sell them. Your turning a profit on a trademarked logo or team name. If one of his beer cap pens shows a beer logo and he sells it that is infringement.

Actually you don't even have to sell it for it to be infringement. Google "louis vuitton sues Brittany spears, MTV, Sony BMG" you will see what I mean. You only have to lessen the value of the trademarked logo. All they did was put a louis vuitton logo on a dash of a car for a video and they got nailed for infringement. 3 minute video ended up costing Sony BMG and MTV each over $100,000.
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Buy Jack Daniels Blanks here at IAP and get caught selling them at a show with certs-------guess who they go after ?????????
 
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beatdeadhorse.gif
 
>However, a copyright does not protect an idea—only the author's particular expression of that idea. For example, you cannot copyright the idea of a garden sculpture of a little girl sitting on a park bench wearing a floppy hat. But, once you have made a sculpture of a little girl sitting on a park bench wearing a floppy hat, your expression of that idea will be protected. This does not mean that others cannot make sculptures using the same idea—a girl on a park bench wearing a floppy hat. It does mean, however, that if they copy your expression or their work is substantially similar in the eyes of the ordinary observer, their work may be an infringement of your work.

Hmm... Very interesting quote. Kinda reminds me of a few people "borrowing" my idea for the puzzle pen. I had several versions including individual laser cut pieces months before anyone else did that. Of this there can be no question. Yet the author claims on his site "The Original Puzzle Pen". This is obviously a false statment and blatently disregards the very point of the quote and entire thread. It's just not right to take full credit for an idea that was not yours to begin with. I'm still waiting on the infringers to recognize this on their sites and/or royalty checks to start coming in for that one.
 
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may not be correct on this, but he may be getting around the trademark laws by having multiple logoes on a single Item. since that prevents it from being a "Coors" pen, it may be a loop-hole.

Maybe a pen with the Clemson logo AND the Panthers logo would be in a loop-hole since it is neither a Clemson Penn, A Panthers pen, a NFL pen, or a College Football pen. It would just be a football pen.
 
I apologize if any of my comments were taken as a personal attack, flaming or a broad negative statement about an individual or business.
 
Canedriver said:
Thats not true. Put a trademark logo that you do not hold the rights to on anything and make a profit from it and that is trademark infringement. This is why you cannot make your own NFL jerseys and sell them. You cannot sell NFL logo'ed jerseys becasue they sell NFL jerseys. Your turning a profit on a trademarked logo or team name. It's not the profit. It is the image that a trademark protects. If one of his beer cap pens shows a beer logo and he sells it that is infringement. nope.

Actually you don't even have to sell it for it to be infringement. Google "louis vuitton sues Brittany spears, MTV, Sony BMG" you will see what I mean. You only have to lessen the value of the trademarked logo. All they did was put a louis vuitton logo on a dash of a car for a video and they got nailed for infringement. 3 minute video ended up costing Sony BMG and MTV each over $100,000. Because it lowered the image of the trademark.
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That is not only true it is fact.
Use for different goods or services

The registration of a trademark includes an indication of the goods or services which it is intended to protect. This means that, in principle, others are free to use the trademark for other goods or services. However, there are some exceptions. As explained earlier, a trademark always runs the risk that it loses its distinctive character, which could mean that the trademark at some point is annulled.
It is also an infringement if the use of the mark is such that it harms the trademark holder in an unfair way. The reputation or image that he has built could suffer from somebody elses use of the mark.

Check out this site: http://www.iusmentis.com/trademarks/crashcourse/rights/

It explains Trademarks and Infringements.

In the case of LV and Britney. They felt that the video lowered the standard of LV.
 
I think the only person here that had an original idea for a blank was Curtis and his ...... Oh wait his cat already has a copyright on that blank.
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 
wdcav1952 said:
This link might be of interest with respect to clock part pens, copyright and the like.

http://www.luxist.com/2007/12/08/caran-dache-1010-pen/
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And as they state on the site.
"Two cages, one decorated with gear wheels, and the other with the bridges that link them, are fitted over a transparent body."
So it isn't made from parts from inside a watch.
I also agree with Cozee that we are beating a dead horse.
I am just a lowly turner who sometimes sells a few of his works.
:rolleyes:
 
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