Some FACTS about copyright

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DCBluesman

Passed Away Mar 3, 2016
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from http://www.sgrlaw.com/resources/trust_the_leaders/leaders_issues/ttl12/873/ the website of a well-known intellectual property law firm.

What can be Copyrighted?



Almost anything can constitute copyrightable subject matter provided it is fixed in a tangible medium, which means you can see it, hear it, and/or touch it.

However, a copyright does not protect an idea—only the author's particular expression of that idea. For example, you cannot copyright the idea of a garden sculpture of a little girl sitting on a park bench wearing a floppy hat. But, once you have made a sculpture of a little girl sitting on a park bench wearing a floppy hat, your expression of that idea will be protected. This does not mean that others cannot make sculptures using the same idea—a girl on a park bench wearing a floppy hat. It does mean, however, that if they copy your expression or their work is substantially similar in the eyes of the ordinary observer, their work may be an infringement of your work.

In the United States, the owner of the copyright can register a work with the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress if they submit a properly completed application form, nonrefundable filing fee for each application (for current fees, please check the Copyright Office Web site here, and a nonrefundable deposit of the work being registered. The deposit requirements vary depending upon the nature of the work, but generally speaking, two complete copies are required.



The Copyright Act lists the types of authorship which are protected under the Act (17 U.S.C. § 102(a)).
  • Literary Works. This category includes the obvious, such as books, newspaper articles, periodicals and manuscripts, and the not so obvious, such as catalogs, directories and computer programs (specifically recognized as copyrightable literary works by the Computer Software Copyright Act of 1990).
  • Musical Works. This includes both the music and the lyrics of a song, although the lyrics alone could be separately copyrighted as a literary work.
  • Dramatic Works. Dramatic works, by definition, portray a story or convey some type of theme through the use of dialogue or acting. Examples include theatrical plays, screenplays, works of musical theater and opera.
  • Pantomime and Choreographic Works. These are dramatic presentations without words, principally dance, but the protection does not extend to social dance steps.
A copyright does not protect an idea—only the author's particular expression of that idea.

  • Pictorial, Graphic and Sculpture Works. This category includes two-dimensional and three-dimensional works of fine, graphic and applied art, photographs, prints, art reproductions, maps, globes, charts, technical drawings, diagrams and models. Not so obvious examples are labels on products if they contain more than just trademarks or short phrases or lists of ingredients. Also included are advertisements, dress and fabric designs and popular art, which encompasses a broad range of decorative or novelty items from jewelry to cemetery monuments—however, the copyright protects only the esthetic, ornamental aspects of a work, not its functional aspects. For example, you cannot copyright a spoon, because it is a useful article. However, if you apply a unique design to the handle of a spoon, that design, as applied to a spoon, can be copyrighted.
 
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Being new to this hobby, I am not sure that I understand. Can I, or Can't I make a clock part pen? Simple yes or no. Barry? Can I sell this pen? Can I pass it off as "my creation"? (not orginal concept, but something that I created with my own two hands?)

If I do, do I need Barry's permission. Will he sue if I sell it? Do I need to bow down and give him credit for the idea? A part of my profit? What?

What about the computer board pens? Does someone hold the patent on those? I have seen several people selling thier own kits.

I saw a pen that was made from an old golf club with golf ball inlay. Should that guy copyright his pen? I thought that it was a good idea. Since turning I have begun looking around for things to turn in to pens. My daughters keep handing me stuff saying, "Daddy, make this into a pen." It's the nature of the beast.

Up until now, I was really enjoying the Pen Turning community.

I thought that this community was about showing each other how to make pens for fun and profit? Is the market that small that we have to copyright specific pen ideas? Come on...this is not right.
 
. It does mean, however, that if they copy your expression or their work is substantially similar in the eyes of the ordinary observer, their work may be an infringement of your work.

Lou, does this mean that as long as it doesn't take a trained expert to spot the difference, then it is ok?

Would this mean that if I had copyright on using old bolts to make pens then no-one else could? Or would it mean that anyone still could use old bolts as long as the finished article didn't look very similar to mine?
Would only my original design be covered by the copyright, or would any variations also be covered?

LOL, I'll give you half an hour to research the answer, then I need to go to work:biggrin:
 
Lou, does this mean that as long as it doesn't take a trained expert to spot the difference, then it is ok?

Would this mean that if I had copyright on using old bolts to make pens then no-one else could? Or would it mean that anyone still could use old bolts as long as the finished article didn't look very similar to mine?
Would only my original design be covered by the copyright, or would any variations also be covered?

LOL, I'll give you half an hour to research the answer, then I need to go to work:biggrin:

Id have said that only the original design would be copyright protected. The method of making it cant really be copyrighted, that would have to be patented? So then the method and idea would be protected. But only to the degree that no one could make a direct copy, once an alteration has been made or a different end product then your not covered?

So unless its a direct copy or a very blatant copy with a minimal attempt to change then you'd be covered, but anything that shows more than a slight change not?

Thats how I see it anyway?

PHIL
 
Being new to this hobby, I am not sure that I understand. Can I, or Can't I make a clock part pen? Simple yes or no. Barry? Can I sell this pen? Can I pass it off as "my creation"? (not orginal concept, but something that I created with my own two hands?)


My small thought

In six months they will be for sale in one of the big catalogs.

Heck someone could sell the blanks here next week.

Look at the newest thing around here----Polymer Canes---then go check them out on ebay crafts---they have been around for a long time.
 
So how does one find out if an idea is copyrighted? You can search patents but can you search copyrights? If I come up with an idea and spend hours making it and post it here and along comes someone and says that I stole it from them, what then? For instance I have seen many 360 herringbone but is the idea copyrighted? I have also seen many Indian blankets but again is the idea copyrighted? This is all very confusing to me.
 
What did I miss?

I've seen a couple of things posted lately that MIGHT have raised some copyright questions, but I'm just kinda wondering...........What prompted this post? :confused:

I find the information interesting, but also wonder, Lou, what compelled you to sit down at the computer and pound this out at 2:41am.? Just curious

Mike Broberg
 
So how does one find out if an idea is copyrighted?

A copyright does not protect an idea—only the author's particular expression of that idea.[/quote]

Searching isn't all that easy, which is why there are services that do it.
Part of the problem is that there can be many ways to describe a process
or a finished product. (Copyright and trademark are very different things)
 
Just to aid the discussion -- there is a material difference between a copyright and a trademark. There is a huge difference between the two in the responsibility (and costs) for enforcement.

There is an amount of copy that goes on in all work -- part if it is how one represents the work as a matter of ethic and how it is presented to the market -- People who write books expect to have the material in the books copied - and hope that they will be represented as "Malcomb Tibbitts style segmented bowl" when copied.
 
I have copyrighted artwork in the past. All I will say about this is when I did so, I was required to remit pictures of said artwork, either individually or as a group or series. The copyright only applied to the artwork pictured.

My personal view is for one that is concerned about copyrights is to go to the source, not rely on 2nd hand information. Check with the Copyright Office and or as has been posted, an organization that deals with said matter. "Artistic License" or variations can become a fine line. Violation of the wrong copyrighted material can cost you dearly!
 
I think it is ironic that a person is claiming copyright on copyrighted items.

By his own admission he is using discarded parts (watch parts, beer caps, cigar bands etc)

Newsflash, Copyrights DO NOT transfer. This primarily protects authors of works such as books and music. Just because you buy it does not mean you hold the copyright to the work.

Trademarks ™ DO NOT transfer. Just because it is garbage or a discarded item in your eyes does not mean there is not a trademark on the item.

This is especially true for trademark items like beer caps and cigar labels that have logos on them.

This is a VERY tricky area and you can be sued by the holder of the copyright or trademark in the case of logos.

All the company or individual has to do is claim you diminished the value of his/her product by using and/or incorporating in your own and your liable. (See recent Louis Vitton case where Brittany Spears, Sony BMG, and MTV were sued. They basically took a car and used Louis Vitton imaging to spruce it up for a music video.)

The above is just an example, but do you really think Tag Heuer or another high line watch wouldn't sue to protect its image when it sees parts plastered on a $50 or even a $100 pen kit? This is especially true of more public images such as beer caps. These companies WILL protect its image just as the NFL does.

I find it ironic that a person is claiming copyright on an item like this.

1) He doesn't hold the copyright for casting parts in acrylic/resin. I am pretty sure this has been around a LONG time.
2) He doesn't hold the copyright on the parts themselves even if they are "discarded", again Copyrights and Trademarks DO NOT transfer
3) He doesn't hold the copyright for the every day pen.

If your saying he holds the copyright on specifically casting pen parts in acrylic. I do not see a judge enforcing that as it is an idea of a common practice for making pens, Stamp pens, coffee beans, etc.
 
Being new to this hobby, I am not sure that I understand. Can I, or Can't I make a clock part pen? Simple yes or no. Barry? Can I sell this pen? Can I pass it off as "my creation"? (not orginal concept, but something that I created with my own two hands?)

Simple answer, yes to all.

However, if what you make is an exact replica of an existing clock part pen, the original maker could claim first usage and if the original maker went to the trouble of copywriting the item, then you may be liable for damages. What constitutes and "exact replica?" Multiple courts have ruled that 3-5 changes in the design elements of a copywrited item is enough to equal a significant change and therefore is not protected under the earlier usage or copywrite.

Making them one at a time you would have a hard time making an exact replica, even if you used the exact same gears and springs they would end up in a slightly different position.

Caution: Never rely on an amateur for legal advice, I could be wrong.

How do you know if an item is copywrited? In almost all cases you don't know unless you go to considerable time and expense to have it researched. If you can prove first usage through a dated photo, dated sales ticket, printed copy and a copy of the printing invoice or some other method then the item you created is protected from that point forward. But enforcement is up to you, if you see someone selling an exact replica it is up to you to prove that you created the item first. If you can prove first usage, you can demand that the copier must stop creating and selling the item, but unless you have filed for a copywrite you are not likely to succeed in claiming and obtaining damages for their usage.
 
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So does that mean that any of the pens appearing on Barry's Eco-Friendly page, like the Cholla filled, snakes skin etc. cannot be sold by anyone other than him?
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I just read two other threads to find out what prompted this thread and I think the whole situation is pathetic!

I visited the website of the member claiming he has a copyright on the watch design blanks as well as several other ideas. What I find amazing and pathetic is that on the same page where he displays his copyrighted ideas, he also displays his cactus blank pens (wonder where he got that idea?), circuit board pens, snake skin pens as well as all the other "ideas" we have seen on the forum over the past few years.

I guess it's OK to sell pens using other people's ideas or use their ideas as inspiriation then make slight changes and copyright your idea to keep anyone else from making similar designs.

This whole notion of seeing someone's work, being inspired by that work to create something of your own then applying for a copyright so no one can copy your "idea" is sad! How many neat designs have we seen on this forum over the years that were inspired by what others have done? I'm guessing that whoever thought about casting pasta in resin might have been inspired by seeing one of the coffee bean blanks. Where would we be if everyone copyrighted every blank they came up with to keep others from making a similar blank?

Not that I create many original ideas but in case I do, all I can say is that it will be a cold day in hell before I post anything on this forum again that has to do with anything I create for fear that some lurker will be inspired by what I do or simply take my idea, make some changes then copyright the idea to keep me and others from making my own idea!
 
I definately hope not because it is very implosible that one man is the pioneer in every blank that he has on his website...

The thing that got me going is the attack on a fellow forum members creativity, artistis expression, faith in us by posting a beautiful pen, and worst of all, his integrity!

So does that mean that any of the pens appearing on Barry's Eco-Friendly page, like the Cholla filled, snakes skin etc. cannot be sold by anyone other than him?
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Very interesting and at the same time "sad" discussions that all have stemmed over 'watch parts'. Just hope that we all come to our senses and let the 'lagaleeze' be. Please let's continue to keep the IAP faith of "sharing ideas" and advancing our craft, without the "fear" of legal action.
 
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So basically what I am seeing here is that we are ALL guilty of copywrite infringement! Someone could come along and say that they made a simple Gold Sierra with a generic piece of oak as the blank 20 some years ago. And I just made one last week, wouldn't I be guilty of this? I love this forum beacuse it is a place to share ideas and learn from those who have more experience than I do.

What consitutes a change in design? If I were to make a wine rack I see in a magazine and get as close to it as I can but use different woods is this enough difference to make it "my own"? I have often wondered this when I buy plans and they say "you cannot sell any made copy of the finished item". Is that an exact copy of what they have made (ie materials and final dimensions) or can I change just a small portion of it to make it legal?
 
Very interesting and at the same time "sad" discussions that all have stemmed over 'watch parts'. Just hope that we all come to our senses and let the 'lagaleeze' be. Please let's continue to keep the IAP faith of "sharing ideas" and advancing our craft, without the "fear" of legal action.

It's a bit too late for that! What some see as "sharing ideas" and "advancing our craft" is seen as "Copyrights" and "Money, money, money" to others.
 
Here is my plan.......I hereby relinquish any proprietary right to any of the concepts listed. In fact, I encourage others to adapt them as their own :biggrin:.


  • Keep checking IAP for new ideas.
  • Adapting those ideas into my pens.
  • Posting the results and requesting critical feedback so as to become a better pen maker.
  • Dreaming of the day that I will have an original idea that someone else believes is worth stealing.
And most importantly.........


  • Refusing to allow silly discussions such a this one dampen my spirits, hesitate to post, or to incorporate the ideas I get from the members of this site into my work.
Don't get me wrong, I respect the laws and intellectual property rights of individuals. I just don't think I need to obsess over them as I go about my daily routine. If I ever post something that leads to a, "Cease & Desist" letter then I'll deal with it. Until then, I'd rather spend my time thinking about how to custom make a clip or grip:).
 
Could someone point me to the two posts that caused this issue. I am very interested in this.


Ray, it is Jeff Tates watch part pen he showed. They are under the Show off your pens forum. It is a shame it has gotten to this point and I, like the others would not worry about this. Continue to do the best in whatever you are making and continue to share with us all. I think it is a rediculous claim that would not hold water. I think I will copyright these words:biggrin:
 
I thought of them first and already have them copyrighted!!! You cannot use them!:biggrin:

Ray, it is Jeff Tates watch part pen he showed. They are under the Show off your pens forum. It is a shame it has gotten to this point and I, like the others would not worry about this. Continue to do the best in whatever you are making and continue to share with us all. I think it is a rediculous claim that would not hold water. I think I will copyright these words:biggrin:
 
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It's a bit too late for that! What some see as "sharing ideas" and "advancing our craft" is seen as "Copyrights" and "Money, money, money" to others.

This is my concern as a newbie. I am now afraid to post a pen on this forum. I am afraid that anyone can claim that they had the idea first, copyright it and then tell me that I am infringing or negatively impacting thier business, and I need to cease and desist.

I am sorry but guys like Barry are going to ruin IAP.

Barry, you need to get better lawyers because it does not matter if the material has been discarded, you are still profiting from a trademarked image and name. Someone should probably contact each company that you have placed on your pens for sale and have you cease and desist from making a profit from someone else's image. There may also be damages to pay.

These big corporations have a lot of money and several lawyers dedicated to ensuring thier companies rights.

Let's face it, the only reason they buy a beer cap pen or a cigar logo pen is due to the recognized images that have been placed in the pen. Anyone with two brain cells would have eventually, if they have not already, made a pen like these.

Didn't someone already mention on the other thread about a $16k watch that had the gears molded in the pen? Was that pen made before or after Barry's? If it was made before Barry's, than he cannot claim that it was his idea. If it was made after Barry's, then my question would be, "Did Barry conact the Jeweler and ask them to remove it from their site?"

My personal opinion is that Barry should back off. We should try to repair the damage to the IAP and move on. I will also say that I don't care about the "LEGASLEEZES". I am going to make pens, I am going to post pens, and I am going to sell pens. If anyone has a problem with it, tough!
 
Please do not construe this as legal advice, I am a lawyer and have to say that, but I just wanted to share this section of the United States Code with you:

17 USC § 102. Subject matter of copyright: In general
(a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories:
(1) literary works;
(2) musical works, including any accompanying words;
(3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;
(4) pantomimes and choreographic works;
(5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;
(6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
(7) sound recordings; and
(8) architectural works.
(b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.



You can sculpt a naked woman, copyright your sculpture, doesn't mean naked women are off limits to other artists!!
 
Important points:

Processes cannot be copyrighted. Process protection is afforded only through a patent. Derivative work is tightly defined. Copying anyone's watch pen precisely, then removing a tiny part will likely be considered derivative. Using a different model or brand of watch, or placing the pieces in different places would not be considerivative. Case law looks to what is substantially the same, which may be a violation, or conceptually the same, which is generally not. And yes, Steven, the standard is an average person being able to tell the difference.

Ideas cannot be copyrighted, patented or trademarked. Period.

As for why I posted this, I get tired of hearing folks make unsubstantiated legal claims. This nonsense needs to stop. It defeats the progress of art and technology.

As for why I posted it at 2:41 a.m., I needed a break from working!
 
Well here's my 2 cents worth(maybe one cent) being new to the forum. None of this changes anything for me. If I want to make something I will (or try) i will continue to read the posts on this forum and post pictures when I think they might be worthwhile--if they look like someone elses--sorry--get a life. It's not like I'm making a million dollars doing this--I do it because I enjoy doing it.

I really enjoy reading this forum and I am always amazed at the talent and creative people on here. I hope they all continue to post.
 
It doesn't affect me, because I'm not making proprietary designs and selling them for a profit...

I make pens for fun.

But if I was a pen designer, would I have to copyright my 'expression of idea' and then patent the 'process'? If I was planning on selling the idea and process for profit, then yes...luckily, there are very few of us that fit into that niche.

We're in an educational forum, where we learn from each other. If we're worried about others stealing our ideas, then we're likely in the wrong place. :)
 
Important points:

Ideas cannot be copyrighted, patented or trademarked. Period.
Lou, I think Ideas can be patented.

There was a case not so long ago about ebay having to pay a guy royalties or some such because he had patented the idea of the combination of an auction on the internet. Apparently that's all this guy does for a living is come up with ideas and patent them, then either sell the rights or sue when someone else utilizes what they may think is an original idea.

I could be wrong, but I swear I saw something on this case a while back.
 
One other thought - much of the extensive research that many of us do to learn how to cast, create, and sculpt pens comes from looking at other posts here at the IAP...

If someone then comes along and then copyrights the idea, I wonder who would have the legal upper hand? I would imagine that nearly every type of pen has been put on here or cast in resin at one point...

Just a musing...
 
LOL, well I'm not really into gang banging anyone, so I won't add my thoughts on the particular artist ( but let's face it guys, he is an artist )

BUT....:biggrin: as many people suggest, it's open season on watch-part-pens, so I snuck up to my son's bedroom and nicked his watch!!:eek:

Getting it apart was a doddle !!!:wink:

Only one snag:redface: There's only about 4 bits in it and the one or two gears are plastic......

Someone might have told me that it should be an analogue windery uppery one!!!!:mad:

Ya think I'll get it back together before he comes home?:tongue:
 

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The last thing I will say on the topic, as I need to go do some actual work, is that even if there is a finding of a copyright infringement, which does not seem likely, the next issue in any suit is damages. This just means what was lost by the copyright holder. Sony and the other big corporations sued Napster because they were losing millions of dollars to music sharing, I do not see a lawyer taking a case against a person to recover 150 dollars for a high end pen that some lowly pen maker like myself sold at a craft sale. The filing fees are almost that much these days. I personally think that this is a non issue and people should continue to make and show off their creations on this site. I am off to glue macaroni to a pop bottle, copyright it, and then sue the entire United States kindergarten population come Christmas time!! Sweet!
 
Ray

Thankyou for your input. It's great to have a bonafidey lawyer to get information from.



Please do not construe this as legal advice, I am a lawyer and have to say that, but I just wanted to share this section of the United States Code with you:

17 USC § 102. Subject matter of copyright: In general
(a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories:
(1) literary works;
(2) musical works, including any accompanying words;
(3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;
(4) pantomimes and choreographic works;
(5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;
(6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
(7) sound recordings; and
(8) architectural works.
(b) In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.



You can sculpt a naked woman, copyright your sculpture, doesn't mean naked women are off limits to other artists!!
 
Just to add a different twist to this.
I work as a Professional Chef, and know that there are some other Chef's out there that claim to have come up with a "New" idea and get mad when someone else copies it. But as a lot of my friends and colleagues know there is no such thing as a "New" recipes. They are just variations on what has come before. I for one like to know that someone likes something that I have made and wants to try it at home.
I understand all about the copyright infringement and all that happens but if there wasn't someone trying something new then there would be no advancement in our society. I mean look at some of the crazy patents that are out there and then look at how someone changed one little thing to make it work better and got a patent for that.
I agree with razor in that people should continue to make and show off their creations on the site, that is how we learn new things.
 
Let's remember that we should discuss ideas - not individuals; some of these statements above are beginning to attack individuals...

From the Acceptable Use Policy:
No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.
 
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Lou, I think Ideas can be patented.

There was a case not so long ago about ebay having to pay a guy royalties or some such because he had patented the idea of the combination of an auction on the internet. Apparently that's all this guy does for a living is come up with ideas and patent them, then either sell the rights or sue when someone else utilizes what they may think is an original idea.

I could be wrong, but I swear I saw something on this case a while back.

Not to belabor the point, but in the interest of accuracy: (Emphasis added)

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/what.htm


The patent law specifies the general field of subject matter that can be patented and the conditions under which a patent may be obtained.
In the language of the statute, any person who "invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent," subject to the conditions and requirements of the law. The word "process" is defined by law as a process, act or method, and primarily includes industrial or technical processes. The term "machine" used in the statute needs no explanation. The term "manufacture" refers to articles which are made, and includes all manufactured articles. The term "composition of matter" relates to chemical compositions and may include mixtures of ingredients as well as new chemical compounds. These classes of subject matter taken together include practically everything which is made by man and the processes for making the products.

The Atomic Energy Act of 1954 excludes the patenting of inventions useful solely in the utilization of special nuclear material or atomic energy for atomic weapons.

The patent law specifies that the subject matter must be "useful." The term "useful" in this connection refers to the condition that the subject matter has a useful purpose and also includes operativeness, that is, a machine which will not operate to perform the intended purpose would not be called useful, and therefore would not be granted a patent.

Interpretations of the statute by the courts have defined the limits of the field of subject matter which can be patented, thus it has been held that the laws of nature, physical phenomena and abstract ideas are not patentable subject matter.
A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion. The patent is granted upon the new machine, manufacture, etc., as has been said, and not upon the idea or suggestion of the new machine. A complete description of the actual machine or other subject matter for which a patent is sought is required.
 
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