Political Discussions?

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Should political discussions be allowed at penturners.org?

  • YES - In the Casual Conversation forum

    Votes: 18 10.3%

  • YES - In a separate opt-in forum

    Votes: 50 28.6%

  • NO

    Votes: 107 61.1%
  • Total voters
    175
  • Poll closed .
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jeff

jeff

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A lot of threads recently have wandered into the area of political discussion. I think this is due in part to the tremendous attention these days on global topics such as the economy and the environment, which are almost impossible to discuss in any depth without veering into politics.

These sort of discussions enlighten and educate us, and can help us establish new friendships and understand different viewpoints. However, they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas.

We have toyed with the idea of allowing political discussions, and before we spend any more time thinking about how best to implement it, I wanted to get a sense of what the community wants.

So please give me your opinion in this poll. THANKS!
 
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tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas
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This statement says it all! If this can be achieved then let the discussions commence! Great wording!
 
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I vote yes-opt in
But if you open up to this then the same option should/would need to be avalible for religion.
Religion an politics can get people pretty heated.
 
" However, they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas."

Only if this statement can be honored and without anger at the difference of opinions.
 
I voted for opt in forum...so long as it is closely moderated and well understood that tolerances for varied opines is the norm and respect for the individual prevails. I have left another forum due to raging, off topic political debates which ended in name calling and threats of physical violence. I don't know about you folks, but I do this stuff for fun and after a long stressful day at my job I don't like to come home and hear that Mr Joe Hothead wants to bash in Mr Opiniated's fat head. OK?
BTW, the aforementioned forum had nothing to do with penmaking or even woodworking for that matter...but it was a far cry from anything political.
 
HSTurning said:
I vote yes-opt in
But if you open up to this then the same option should/would need to be avalible for religion.
Religion an politics can get people pretty heated.
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There IS a difference.

Religion is based on FAITH, not facts.

Politics, while there are many interpretations, still has certain FACTS that can be established as the basis of a debate.

You can't debate FAITH-you got it, or you don't.

You got yours, I got mine, he got none---and that covers it.:eek::eek:
 
Big ol' NO vote for me...

Penturning doesn't require political discussions - strictly speaking, it doesn't require casual conversation either, but that's one thing I'm willing to overlook, because it CONTRIBUTES to a feeling of COMMUNITY.

Political discussions undermine this sense of community...

I saw another forum recently die because they changed the rules in ONE forum to allow politics...spilled over into all fora...

I really think that politics and religion are two things that create more tension than anything else - especially when they're discussed without face-to-face interaction.

One other note - who is going to moderate this one, Jeff? Curtis has his hands full already, and a political forum would do nothing but double his workload, I would think...

So I'm vehemently opposed to politics. If they're allowed, then they'll definitely lead to ill-will and bickering. Guaranteed.
 
so long as it stays cival. this could very interesting. who knows, we might even see life outside the box. so to speak.
 
I think it will prove impossible to police an opt-in forum. Simple fact is that people take their political opinions very seriously--as we have all seen in the offending threads (including me). Nothing good can come of it, and this is a penturning website, not a political website.

Edit to add: I also think the existing rules should be more stridently enforced in the Casual Conversation forum. I've stopped posting my personal opinions about non-pen-related things, and I'd like to see less of it overall.
 
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No thanks - there are plenty of venues on the web to vent about politics. Let's keep this site to talk about pens!
 
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I think a separate "politics and religion" forum would be reasonable. But I like not having it creep into all the threads by allowing it anywhere.
 
jeff said:
...they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas.
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I vote against it for a few reasons.

1. This is the "International" Association of Penturners, yet most of the political discussions center around the US. Adding a US-centric forum will further segregate the members.

2. We only get the tolerance and respect parts correct about 95% of the time without adding politics (or religion). Also, who will be the arbiter of definitions of tolerance and respect?

3. With the virtually free nature of the internet, including email, discussions which are so far out of line with pen making are better handled in a forum where the boundaries are more clearly established.

4. This will take the participants' and the forum management's attention away from the primary purpose for this organization's existence.

5. I do care what just about anyone on this forum says regarding pen making. I cannot say the same for their political (or religious) indoctrinations.

Do what you must, but keep in mind that while you can blow out a candle, you can't blow out a fire.
 
nava1uni said:
" However, they can also be divisive and distracting unless everyone involved can bring to the discussion a tolerance for other opinions, and personal respect for the people with different ideas."

Only if this statement can be honored and without anger at the difference of opinions.
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Well said. perhaps somewhat Utopic world like though. just IMHO:tongue:
 
I vote no. If I want politics, I got to a forum meant for that discussion. I come here to learn and develop as a turner...
 
Politics abound. In all forms of media, including many other forums.

So each of you ask yourself...Is it really necessary on a hobby site...and of all things one on pens? Can we not have one last bastion? Or have we run out of all new pen ideas and we should just close the patent office?

IMHO, opening up the IAP to political discussions is not the way to fix a problem. These sorts of discussions have in the past, and will continue to serve in the future, a means by which only schism and discord is created amongst the members here. Opt in or not.
 
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I'll have to vote no, because it is human nature to be stubborn in ones belief's, especially when it comes to religion and politics. This is a place to gather as friends, not create new enemies. We all share a common thread, and that is turning, so lets keep to turning and the good comedic times of life and learning. If the people vote yes, and you decide to side with the people, you know you are going to be sorry...especially Curtis will be.
 
I voted no. Sad to say, but I think given a group this size, there will be an inevitable percentage that are not able to keep the discourse civil. Ed mentions above that facts provide a basis for political discussion, and while true I have also seen all parts of the political spectrum pick and chose partial facts, and take things out of context, in order to push an agenda. I hope I'm wrong, but I just picture too many threads devolving into hurtful, angry arguments, and being locked by the mods after friendships have been scarred.
 
Not too long ago there was a discussion about the "Health Care" reform issue. There were differing opinions. BUT, someone gave us a link to the bill that was before the House at the time. And discussion stayed civil. I, for one, learned a few things and I doubt I am the "least informed" among us, so it should be safe to say, "Many learned SOMETHING"!

Could I have learned it someplace else? Sure, but here it was defended by people who I think I know. So, it had more value, to me.

Lou points out that this is an "International" association. I find this a reason, rather than a deterrant to discuss ideas. We live in a WORLD, Americans are too willing to protect our own turf with no regard and no understanding of others' views. IF the Canadians, Europeans and Australians all comment, we (Americans) could learn a great deal about alternative approaches (to health care) that have worked, or not.

As long as the forum is optional, I would say, don't join if you know you are intolerant of others' opinions.

As always, the decision is Jeff's. The most persuasive argument against an opt-in forum is the difficulty in moderating. So, I would propose a "two strikes and you're out" moderation. Once very liberal rules are established, the first violation is a warning, the second bans you from that forum. As I once said in another place, establish a "forum with decorum".

I BELIEVE it can work.

I also bow to whatever decision is made.
(Unfortunately, I also agree with Lou that a bonfire cannot be "blown out", so who's got the bucket of water?????)

Good luck, whatever the decision, Jeff!!
 
I voted for the Opt in Forum. After thinking about it, I change my vote to no. I think we should refrain from the Political and Religious type of threads. Especially during this very volatile place the country is in right now. The country is already polarized why do it to this place.
 
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No, with a realization that it is going to happen. I really don't have a big problem with these types of discussions taking place in the Casual Conversation forum, but a separate, "Political, Religious Topics" forum is not needed. I suspect that if a separate Opt-In forum were created a majority of the active members here would Opt-In just to see what is being said or to watch the fireworks start. But only a small percentage of the members who opt-in would regularly contribute to a discussion. Most of those who opt-in would just lurk. Every thread of every forum is already opt-in. People choose to join in a given discussion or not. If a member feels they have something to contribute they do (opt-in). If they don't like the tone of the discussion, or the direction the thread is going they can close it (opt-out) and move on to the next. Establishing a seperate forum would be alot of unnecessary work for the moderators. Personally I am a member here because I want to make better pens. I'll bet that the same holds true for most. Don't ban these discussions, but don't encourage certain topics that have nothing to do with the primary purpose of this site, penturning, by creating an unneeded forum.
 
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I'm a big no. I don't hang hear to read about politics nor do I particularly care about the political philosophies of others who post here. Why create space which will definitely upset some, probably cause some to leave due to hurt feelings or strong beliefs. If you want to blog about politics go to a political forum.
 
I'm a strong and unwavering NO. I really don't want to know. Even if it is opt in, there is spill over; what is said in one forum gets referenced in others. I'm very strong in my political opinions and have little tolerance for those on the other extreme. Word will get around, people will start treating other with less civility, sooner or later I'll say something to someone that will get me kicked out entirely. I just don't want to know where anyone else stands.
 
I voted no as well. I come here to talk pens and other hobby stuff and think a forum like this would end up causing more problems than it can solve. However, I could just ignore that forum too.
 
Jeff asked about politics not religion and as long as its politics in an op-in forum I see no reason other than having a moderator with out an itchy finger. At times in talking (arguing) politics it can and will get heated but heated discussions can be good as long as there is no offense taken by the participants and it doesn't become a name calling thread. I have been involved in a few here that have developed into name calling and that's where the mods need to address the issue and as Ed stated after 2 or 3 strikes that person would be banned from the political forum.
 
My vote is NO........if I want to talk politics, I will find a web site that is politically oriented.
I come here to somewhat escape the day to day pressures that we all face. I come here to learn more about a topic that brings me a great deal of pleasure, not controversy. I have found that the people on this site are the epitome of what is means to be friendly toward one another and freely share the knowledge they have gained with others who often they have never met in person.
No matter how you cut it, there are basically two groups of people in politics, each on opposite ends of the opinion meter. At some point, human nature takes over and normally friendly people are at odds with each other.
Why ruin a good thing?
 
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I conditionally vote no as well. I get involved in many of these type of threads to try to only provide factual information or rebuke a totally false statement with evidence, so my vote may be surprising to many. I'll admit there are days when the arguing gets annoying even to me, but it's only when everyone leaves their levelheadedness at the keyboard when they log in. Some people will even continue to believe the world is flat despite the best evidence to the contrary, and it's those people who cause my blood pressure to rise to uncontrollable levels.

However I would be all for it if it would keep those type of threads out of the other areas.
 
I voted NO because having seen some of the threads about things other than politics that got heated and flames started, I suspect we would have more heat and flames than we could tolerate in a political forum... and this is a hobby forum where we discuss things related to the hobby... I enjoy the casual conversation forum because that is where we get to know our fellow forum members and a lot of camaraderie develops.

If the decision to allow it is made, then I vote that the discussions be very very strictly restricted to an opt-in forum and the rules enforced strictly to still not allow in the other forums.
 
Some would say that some political views have been elevated to a religion- as a lot of stuff out there certainly isn't based on fact. :rolleyes:


ed4copies said:
There IS a difference.

Religion is based on FAITH, not facts.

Politics, while there are many interpretations, still has certain FACTS that can be established as the basis of a debate.

You can't debate FAITH-you got it, or you don't.

You got yours, I got mine, he got none---and that covers it.:eek::eek:
Click to expand...
 
Politics and religion are too personal to be debated objectively. Disagreement will come across as an attack. Also mentioned above, we are international and much as I hate to, I will vote no. We as a group bicker enough as it is. I know there are individuals adding to their ignore list because it is becoming a serious downer. This is a refuge for pen turners. Viewable by opt in I could live with.
 
Don't we have enough hate and discontent going on all over the place without contaminating this site? I bailed out of WOW for the political leftist views that would not be quiet. I do not want to bail out of IAP! Philip, Retired Admiral
 
I voted no.

Simple reason. I'm a skilled debater who can argue any side of a topic (often do as I'll voice the side others don't want to voice themselves). I can do it because I have no passion for the topic so my feelings are never in danger. Most simply can't do this, they are too invested in the topic to allow themeselves to remain calm.


One of my favorite quotes and one that everyone should try to honor when thinking about this comes from the movie American President. I'll paraphrase since I don't have it handy.

[Defend a persons right to voice something at the top of their lungs that you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of your lungs. Then you have free speech.]
 
I second this . . .

maxwell_smart007 said:
Big ol' NO vote for me...

Penturning doesn't require political discussions - strictly speaking, it doesn't require casual conversation either, but that's one thing I'm willing to overlook, because it CONTRIBUTES to a feeling of COMMUNITY.

Political discussions undermine this sense of community...

I saw another forum recently die because they changed the rules in ONE forum to allow politics...spilled over into all fora...

I really think that politics and religion are two things that create more tension than anything else - especially when they're discussed without face-to-face interaction.

One other note - who is going to moderate this one, Jeff? Curtis has his hands full already, and a political forum would do nothing but double his workload, I would think...

So I'm vehemently opposed to politics. If they're allowed, then they'll definitely lead to ill-will and bickering. Guaranteed.
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I have seen a welding forum take on an entirely different tone due to POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS. It is now just about dead . .

I personally have lost (2) friendships that were over 25 years old thanks to political discussions.

When times are good, political discussions are OK, but now is not the time . . .

I say this because I am probably one of the worse when it comes to this . . .

My 2 cents . . .

Steve
 
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jeff said:
......These sort of discussions enlighten and educate us, and can help us establish new friendships and understand different viewpoints. .....!
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Sorry Jeff, while the above comment sounds good in theory it's probably the farthest thing from reality.

I was a member of a huge online RV forum for several years and most got along with each other and most respected each others opinions and minor disagreements would flair up now and then but that was to be expected.

They too decided to start a forum where political discussions were allowed. It didn't take two weeks before it was full of the nastiest, mean spirited posts you ever read and the worst part was that some of the attitudes quickly spilled out into the rest of the forums. Where once minor disagreements were held occasionally, people looked for any reason to disrupt threads to take pot shots at their "new enemies", folks that used to be their friends!

I voted NO, It's one thing knowing there are pinheads on the forum, it's another thing knowing who they are! :eek: :biggrin:

I vote YES to sticking to pens. :)
 
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