Personal Attacks

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ROOKIETURNER

ROOKIETURNER

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Joined
Feb 26, 2010
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Location
Naperville, IL
Wow, the title alone should get the MOD's attention.

Recently I have had a few posts deleted and the reason given was that I violated the "Personal Attack" policy.

Here is the policy as writting in the AUP:

No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.

What is your interpretation of this policy? Can we criticize a group of PEOPLE? Or is it just one person?

Any and all thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,

Rob
 
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My interpertation is that you behave in the same manner that you would if you were a guest in someone's house who didn't appreciate personal attacks against themselves or others, including other groups of people. Personal attacks provide no positive, constructive input which is what most people come to IAP for. Think about a time when you were personally attacked either in person or via a forum like this one. Was it helpful? Did you learn anything positive that you could use in the future? If your answer is no, then perhaps others feel that same way and that personal attacks serve no real purpose on this or any forum. Just my 2 cents worth.

Jim Smith
 
Criticize ideas, not people.
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I think that right there explains it pretty well.

I haven't seen any of the post(s) which you're referring to so I can't give you a specific example of how to make your point within AUP boundaries.

You or I might not like what someone else does but they may have the right to do it -- I could go political here but will refrain from causing trouble. :wink:

Bear in mind, you can tell someone what you think of their behavior without being insulting. In other words, I believe you can criticize the
choice, decision, or action they chose to take because it's an implementation of the idea. And, you can do that without berating the individual or group.
 
For me (personally), the only critical statement I'll make is if someone asks for feedback on their work and there is obviously something that can be improved. I hope they appreciate it and don't take it the wrong way. I know I appreciate the critique I've received in the past, on this fine forum.

I don't see where a critical attitude is ever needed on the forum toward a particular person or business. That should be handled privately between the two parties involved. If one has a problem with a group of people, I don't see where the forum is a place to air that either. Again, that is something that needs to be dealt with personally. Not by the forum.

I suppose asking for opinions in a casual conversation could be okay, but those conversations always explode - either way.

Just my $.02 and not everyone's view on this matter will be the same.

Good Luck. :)
 
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Unfortunately, criticizing ideas is more or less considered the same as criticizing a person. At least that is the way it is usually taken. I try to get my point across respectfully, but truthfully. Sometimes it doesn't come off that way.
 
bad said:
My interpretation of the policy would be simply:
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
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I'm with Bruce on this one. It's a pen turning forum.

You know I've never read the policy, and I really have no need or interest to.
 
bad said:
My interpretation of the policy would be simply:
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
Click to expand...

What is "nice"? Here are a few thoughts on what's nice:
At times, I listen to Dave Ramsey on the radio. People with financial problems call in and ask for advice based on actions they've taken.
When they do something he believes is stupid, he tells them it's stupid.
He's helping them. Saying nothing would not be "nice."
When no one tells the alcoholic he's screwing up his life and those around him, that's not being "nice."

IF someone posts something and asks for a response, it may be they really want to know what we think.

Remember, there's also an Off-Topic forum [Casual Converstion] here which has nothing to do with pens wherein some of us
converse to share good news, seek advice, or **** & Moan about whatever :biggrin:


Honey, do these jeans make my butt look big? :eek:
 
Mack C. in Brooklin (Whitby) ON said:
You know I've never read the policy, and I really have no need or interest to.
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Same here. If you treat everyone with respect and dignity, you will rarely go wrong. Any conflict you have with an individual is best worked out in private - not an open forum. I also realize (once emotion settles down) that issues I have with someone is as much my own issue comming up to bite me as it is theirs.
 
GaryMGg said:
People with financial problems call in and ask for advice based on actions they've taken.
When they do something he believes is stupid, he tells them it's stupid.
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I've never listened to this guy, but there are actually nice ways to tell someone they are doing something stupid - but it take great effort to accomplish this in the written word.

Two of the things we lack in an on-line forum is tone of voice and body language. Both, when combined with the words make a huge difference to the way the words are percieved. 2/3 of our communication potential is not available to us.

Telling somene they are acting stupid with a caring tone and a worried look on you face shows them it is out of sincere concern for their well being, and can open a meaningful dialog. Write the same in a letter or forum and they are insulted and not likely to ever "talk" to you again. The intensions dont come through.

The point is that in writing on the forum it takes great care to avoid percieved insults - you almost have to write a dissertation to explain your intents before making your statement (to substitute for tone and body language).

Unless its an extremely important point, I try to avoid the dissertation by trying to avoid being critical - its just much easier.
 
I like what Mack C says:

"You know I've never read the policy, and I really have no need or interest to."

You know, there is enough crap going on in this world to go around. Here, why can't we all just stick to our pen turning. It's all art. If you like it, great. If you don't that's fine too. Talk about the product, not the artist.

God Bless You All.
Jim
 
ROOKIETURNER said:
Wow, the title alone should get the MOD's attention.

Recently I have had a few posts deleted and the reason given was that I violated the "Personal Attack" policy.

Here is the policy as writting in the AUP:

No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.

What is your interpretation of this policy? Can we criticize a group of PEOPLE? Or is it just one person?

Any and all thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,

Rob
Click to expand...

Seems clear enough Rob... don't make negativity PERSONAL. Whether it is an individual or a group that people belong to, comments focused on PEOPLE and not ISSUES become PERSONAL. When they are negative and hostile they precipate arguments, name calling, fights, and a host of other problems that affect the order and peace of all subscribers on the system. For the good of all, the management has forbidden such behavior.

If someone wants to duke it out in words with someone... go outside.
:wink::wink::wink:
 
Lenny said:
Why do you want to criticize anyone?

Go turn a pen!
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Here, here! The last post that was deleted was because I had enough of a certain person criticizing a group for not participating in an IAP event. I basically told him to mind his own business and be happy that there were a lot of members participating. I may have thrown in a line about taking off your panties...so that was uncalled for, and good reason to delete my post.

But I am just trying to understand everyones perspective so that maybe the Mods will understand what we expect from the rule.

My motto is that if it is negative and not good for IAP we shouldn't keep it up. If the tone of the thread goes south, it should be removed. JMHO.
 
My interpretation and most of the other members interpretations are of no consequence. We, the general membership are not charged with enforcing the policy so while we may have an opinion we only need to know the moderators interpretations and abide by them.
 
ROOKIETURNER said:
Here, here! The last post that was deleted was because I had enough of a certain person criticizing a group for not participating in an IAP event. I basically told him to mind his own business and be happy that there were a lot of members participating. I may have thrown in a line about taking off your panties...so that was uncalled for, and good reason to delete my post.

But I am just trying to understand everyones perspective so that maybe the Mods will understand what we expect from the rule.

My motto is that if it is negative and not good for IAP we shouldn't keep it up. If the tone of the thread goes south, it should be removed. JMHO.
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This is precisely where you differ with the TOS and AUP.

The IAP does not say the thread should be deleted because it's TONE is perceived as less than ideal. The IAP relies on its members, mostly adults, to refine the thread. When it starts going south, most of us can SEE that. NOW, instead of pushing it farther south, step in to try to warn the group that they are "on the line".

To my way of thinking, a group of adults should not NEED a moderator. The group standards SHOULD moderate a "warm" situation. We all respect each other---and no one is forced to react immediately on a "typed page". Go have a drink of lemonade, and cool off. Then come back and impress the IAP with your moderate and "coolly thought out" expression of ideas.

A deleted thread indicates this "body of people" could not moderate THEMSELVES. To me, that reflects VERY POORLY on ALL of us. And Curtis takes his responsibility very seriously, so he will only delete when TOS and/or AUP give him no choice. At which time, the IAP body as a whole has FAILED!!!

Let's avoid failure, ok???
 
mredburn said:
My interpretation and most of the other members interpretations are of no consequence. We, the general membership are not charged with enforcing the policy so while we may have an opinion we only need to know the moderators interpretations and abide by them.
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While I agree, I think it important to know where the membership stands on the policy. I had a post deleted and the MOD stated the first reason it was deleted was that I posted a comment that in my opinion the thread should have been deleted, and that it was not good for the group as a whole. In fairness to the MOD he also stated that I violated the Personal Attack Policy. This is what he said:

"Reason: I guess you do not know how to use the PM feature as requested? Also, personal attacks are not permitted "

Then he explained in another PM:

"...you posting what you did on the thread was a blatant disregard of my request that any disagreements with my decision be sent via PM. On many other forums, criticizing the moderators in the open forum will get you banned."

I then pointed out to this MOD that another member on another thread had openly criticized the MOD for not taking down the very same thread I had said should have been taken down. This MOD has done nothing to the other post.

I go back to the what you said, and while yes it doesn't really matter what we think, or how we interpret the policy, there has to be consistency to administering the policy.
 
ed4copies said:
This is precisely where you differ with the TOS and AUP.

The IAP does not say the thread should be deleted because it's TONE is perceived as less than ideal. The IAP relies on its members, mostly adults, to refine the thread. When it starts going south, most of us can SEE that. NOW, instead of pushing it farther south, step in to try to warn the group that they are "on the line".

To my way of thinking, a group of adults should not NEED a moderator. The group standards SHOULD moderate a "warm" situation. We all respect each other---and no one is forced to react immediately on a "typed page". Go have a drink of lemonade, and cool off. Then come back and impress the IAP with your moderate and "coolly thought out" expression of ideas.

A deleted thread indicates this "body of people" could not moderate THEMSELVES. To me, that reflects VERY POORLY on ALL of us. And Curtis takes his responsibility very seriously, so he will only delete when TOS and/or AUP give him no choice. At which time, the IAP body as a whole has FAILED!!!

Let's avoid failure, ok???
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While you would think that is the case I have evidence of the contrary.

This is what I was told when a thread of mine had been deleted:

"I am sorry if you disagree with my reasons to delete it but my interests are to keep the peace here at IAP to the best of my ability."

No AUP or TOS policy had been violated. He just felt like "the horse had been beaten".

So which is it? Do they only delete when AUP or TOS is violated, or do they delete sometimes simply because it is not good for the group?
 
Do refs always make the same call in football games? How often do you see fans complaining about a "bad call"?
If you disagree with a moderator's decision, PM them and talk about it. The moderators have to use their own discretion in these circumstances, just as a ref or umpire does at a ball game. But going at it this way will get you banned, just like arguing with an umpire will get you thrown out of a baseball game. The good thing here is, we can be banned, but not FINED! If you REALLY have a problem with something a moderator did, then take it to the top, take it to Jeff.
 
"I think the 'idea' of this thread is stupid."

Where's that statement fit? :befuddled:
 
ROOKIETURNER said:
But I am just trying to understand everyones perspective so that maybe the Mods will understand what we expect from the rule.
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ROOKIETURNER said:



Here is how the membership stands on this policy as demonstrated by their continued use of this service..

From the Terms of Service: (Bold Italics added for emphasis)

Acceptance of Terms: Access to any part of the Penturners.org Web site or use of any services provided thereby constitutes acceptance of the Terms of Service. Should you object at any time to the Terms of Service, your only recourse is to immediately discontinue use of the Service. Continued use of the Service is an acceptance of the Terms of Use and all or any subsequent changes.

Membership: …….Penturners.org may suspend or delete the membership of any user for violation of any expressed or implied condition of the Terms of Service. Membership is a privilege not a right, and we reserve the right to deny service to any person at any time without cause.

Member Conduct: You may not use any part of the Service to transmit material that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable, or which infringes upon the intellectual property, contractual, or fiduciary rights of others. You may not use any part of the Service to transmit material that contains software viruses or any other computer code, files, or programs designed to interrupt, destroy, or limit the functionality of any computer software or hardware or telecommunications equipment. You may not use the service to transmit the private information of another person without consent, nor may you post the contents of email exchanges without the consent of all parties involved. (Edit in: I believe this applies to PM's as well.) You may not harvest or collect personal information about other members, whether or not for commercial purposes without their express consent. You may not use the Service to transmit chain letters, junk email, or "spam" to other members.

Conduct Violations: There is no promise or obligation on the part of Penturners.org to monitor or police any member activity, and we are not responsible for discovering conduct violations. However, if and when we discover (or are notified by others) that a conduct violation has occurred, we will investigate. If our investigation substantiates the claim that you have violated the conduct provisions, we may take action ranging from a warning email to permanent termination of your membership. If we issue a warning, and we determine that you continue to violate the conduct provisions, we will terminate your membership. All decisions and actions regarding conduct violations are Penturners.org's alone.

From the AcceptableUse Policy: (Bold Italics added for emphasis)

No personal attacks. Criticize ideas, not people. Flaming will not be tolerated. Broad, negative statements about individuals or businesses are not permitted.


Here is my summary of all this..............


Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or leave.:peace:
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soligen said:
... there are actually nice ways to tell someone they are doing something stupid - but it take great effort to accomplish this in the written word.
...Unless its an extremely important point, I try to avoid the dissertation by trying to avoid being critical - its just much easier.
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My point was the old saw "don't say anything" is NOT always the best course of action.
I agree 100% it is difficult to express a contentious point.
It is often, though not nearly impossible, to criticize or disagree with someone politely and amicably.
For example, see above :biggrin::wink:

Perhaps the Dave Ramsey method doesn't work for everyone, but I'd rather you just tell me,
"Gary, that's stupid." than write a 500 word diatribe which boils down to "Gary, That's stupid."
But hey, that's just me.
:biggrin::biggrin:
 
Remember Gary: There is no "standard" for STUPID.

I should then post, "Gary I BELIEVE that's stupid". To which you could, quite rightly, reply: "Well Ed, you are incorrect-IMO" and that, of course, would END it.



IF you believe that scenario, you have not spent five years on the IAP:bananen_smilies046:
 
Disagree without being disagreeable

Why should one ever be making personal comments about someone they don't even know??? Most of the folks I respond to on this forum I have never met in person and I don't know a thing about them except what they say here so what is there to attack. Making a personal attack on someone just makes me appear to be a fool.

I sometimes have a problem because I say "you" when making a general comment in response to someone elses comment. When I see it I fix it because it might tend to make a general statement seem like a personal attack. I do need to acknowledge that most people do not take such things in the unintended way.

Generally speaking, if one does not like what another or others have written they have an easy solution....don't read it.

Comments regarding the value of a thread are never appropriate...if one doesn't like it....don't follow it.
 
I remember when you asked for opinions on a pen you would actually get some honest criticism, if it was under turned you were told, if the finish looked like it had been done with 60 grit sandpaper some one would tell you the Honest Truth, NOT SO any more, 99.99% of the time you see nice pen , good match up Blah Blah Blah, at one time these were valued opinions that's what made some of us work harder to become better pen turners. not the same old NPGJ routine we get today. That wasn't considered an attack, some weak kneed, Lilly liver, wussies probably cringed when their master piece was trashed, (given an honest evaluation) but that's what kept me here. At one time one of the best guys on the forum Cav, even kept our use or misuse of the English language up to at least a 4th grade level. I miss those days. and sad but true keep in mind that one of the greatest pen turners to ever be on this site was banned. So ya might want to think twice before any one (idea) (not any person) opens their yap at one of the Mods. I've seen some extremely nasty uncalled for PM's that have been sent to other people, that if I were them I would forward them to Jeff, Hostility doesn't have ANY business here on this site at all.
 
Stupid

ed4copies said:
Remember Gary: There is no "standard" for STUPID.

I should then post, "Gary I BELIEVE that's stupid". To which you could, quite rightly, reply: "Well Ed, you are incorrect-IMO" and that, of course, would END it.



IF you believe that scenario, you have not spent five years on the IAP:bananen_smilies046:
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Too many folks tend to take the remark "that's stupid" and convert it into "you're stupid". Truth is smart people are not immune from doing stupid things but doing something stupid, or making a stupid mistake doesn't make a person stupid in a broad sense.
 
Just for the record...since I am the only IAP moderator at this time, Rob is talking about me on this. We have had numerous PMs back and forth and frankly, his posting of my PMs above is not appreciated and is a violation of the Member Conduct section of the Terms of Service. I am not going to delete his posts, however, since I have nothing to hide and can take the criticism.


To address this specific claim:
While you would think that is the case I have evidence of the contrary.

This is what I was told when a thread of mine had been deleted:

"I am sorry if you disagree with my reasons to delete it but my interests are to keep the peace here at IAP to the best of my ability."

No AUP or TOS policy had been violated. He just felt like "the horse had been beaten".

So which is it? Do they only delete when AUP or TOS is violated, or do they delete sometimes simply because it is not good for the group?
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What Rob is failing to tell you on this particular exchange a month or so ago is that a particular thread had already gotten to the point that the TOS or AUP had been obliterated and was deleted. He did not like the fact that the thread was deleted so he went and basically started a new thread with the exact same topic. I deleted it before it too got out of hand. Sure, that particular thread had not violated the TOS or AUP yet. That is where my discretion and judgment has to come in. Re-posting deleted topics right away on most of the other internet forums I frequent will actually get you banned but we prefer to not use the ban option here at IAP.

As for the other one...I have already explained my position to Rob via PM and will not continue to debate it here in the open forum. Rob's post was deleted due to a direct, personal attack on another member. Just because I wrote my reason in a manner that does not fit his needs does not mean otherwise.

Most other internet forums that I frequent do not give reasons when a thread or post is deleted. When I became a moderator here nearly 4 years, I asked Jeff to install a mod to the software that would allow a reason to be given and sent to the person when action is taken. I felt that was a a good policy and would allow for better feelings between members and moderators. I am not so sure about that now. There is limited space to type out a detailed reason of why action is taken. Sure, in the particular case that was quoted above, I did write something about him not using the PM function. I also stated that personal attacks are not allowed. Perhaps I should have written things in a different order. Hindsight is always 20/20. The bottom line is still that a personal attack was made and a post was deleted because of it.

Curtis Seebeck
IAP Moderator
 
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The best way to avoid falling into a canyon:

Don't walk on the edge!!!

When you post anything that MIGHT be a personal attack, RE-EVALUATE!! If in doubt, DON'T!

Then we can let Curtis have a life--not spend his time "moderating" a group of ADULTS!!!!!!!
 
BTW, Smitty----- I am gaining more and more respect for you!! We disagree on marketing, but you are a "stand up" guy!!!
 
Curtis, in my opinion, has always been a fair and responsible moderator. He moderates according to the TOS and AUP, and has always given solid reasons for any actions that he has taken.

One thing that bothers me in this thread is the posting of PMs on the open forum. PM stands for Private Message, and it should definitely be considered a private conversation. I don't know of anyone that would permit their phone to be tapped - in the same way, I think that private messages should not be repeated.

Regardless, debating the interpretation of a rule meant to prevent insulting or inflammatory attacks on others is rather childish - let's just try and act like adults, and avoid belittling others, ok? :)

Andrew
 
disagreement

ed4copies said:
BTW, Smitty----- I am gaining more and more respect for you!! We disagree on marketing, but you are a "stand up" guy!!!
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I think, our disagreements are philosophical....I think we are both pragmatic enough to do what works for us regardless of what we call it. You are actually marketing a different product in a different market place, if I were there I might think the same way you do.
 
I don't think that I called for debate. I simply asked what other's thought of the policy, and what they felt it meant. I think that this has been an eye opening experience for me. I did not mean to start it to prove either myself right or wrong.

I wanted to see if maybe my perspective was skewed and maybe there are things that I had not thought of. I was also told by Curtis that I could start this thread. He even siad I could start one bitching openly about his desicions. I chose not to open bitch and wanted honest reponses. Posts were made and I felt the need to explain. I appologize if it violated the poilicy, it was only my intention to be as factual as possible. I did not want to inject slant into what was said.
 
GaryMGg said:
What is "nice"? Here are a few thoughts on what's nice:
At times, I listen to Dave Ramsey on the radio. People with financial problems call in and ask for advice based on actions they've taken.
When they do something he believes is stupid, he tells them it's stupid.
He's helping them. Saying nothing would not be "nice."
When no one tells the alcoholic he's screwing up his life and those around him, that's not being "nice."

IF someone posts something and asks for a response, it may be they really want to know what we think.

Remember, there's also an Off-Topic forum [Casual Converstion] here which has nothing to do with pens wherein some of us
converse to share good news, seek advice, or **** & Moan about whatever :biggrin:


Honey, do these jeans make my butt look big? :eek:
Click to expand...

On one hand I understand your point of view. On the other hand this is a pen turning forum. Maybe I've missed a few posts in the past, but I don't think people are posting questions about how to deal with their alcholism, what religion they should practice or who to vote for. Ok, maybe there have been a few posts on the last one :) My point is that this is a pen turning forum. It's one thing to talk about different methods of applying CA, but it's another to say that your way of applying CA is stupid. So back to my previous post, which I may not have expressed perfectly, "If you can't say something nice (or make that constructive) don't say anything at all."
 
Bruce,
My response was based on the fact I see the IAP forum as a whole including the
Casual Conversation area wherein folks do ask for advice and opinions about things in their personal lives.
Sometimes, very important things.
In some respect, it's where we shine as a community because we can help one another deal
with issues larger than pen-turning.

However, I agree with your post when it's confined to the areas dedicated to pen-turning.
If someone wants to apply CA with their tongue, who am I to say anything?!? :clown:
 
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