My Latest Creations--Complexity of Time

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Putting peices of stuff in plastic or as it is more commonly called, producing an embedment, has been going on for at least 50 years.

I'd like to see what Caran de Ache has to say about Barry's idea. Find an old paperweight produced by a still extant gift company with fishing flies, bottle caps or broken watch parts and this silliness goes away.

I seriously doubt your pens damaged Barry's livelyhood...
 
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Your pens are very beautiful but I have a question. How do you find out if a pen idea is copyrighted? I know you can search patents but how do you search copyrights? What if you come up with what you think is an original idea and spend hours making it and then post it and someone comes along and says you stole the idea from them? I had no idea that Mr. Gross had copyrights on any of that stuff and now I am scared to come up with any of my ideas for fear of being accused of stealing.
 
yes unless Barry has a patent on the technique, his copywrite is only for a single expression of the work (or each expression of the work he makes), and you have a copywrite on each expression of the work you make.

Caran De Ache's 1010 pen may actually have a patent, but considering it is produced in a much different fashion, doesn't apply here.But if Barry thinks he can stop anyone from making a pen with watch parts simply because he "made one first" he will surely have fun making them stop production of their $100,000 pens.
 
Russianwolf said:
yes unless Barry has a patent on the technique, his copywrite is only for a single expression of the work (or each expression of the work he makes), and you have a copywrite on each expression of the work you make.

Caran De Ache's 1010 pen may actually have a patent, but considering it is produced in a much different fashion, doesn't apply here.But if Barry thinks he can stop anyone from making a pen with watch parts simply because he "made one first" he will surely have fun making them stop production of their $100,000 pens.
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I wish the other post was not locked but the powers to be saw fit to do so. What is interesting in his explanation is he says he does not mind you making one or two as long as you do not commercially market them as your own creation. Well we can say that with all the blanks we buy and that is including the wood blanks. We can't claim we made them but we still sell them. If he wants revenue from them then why does he not sell the blanks????? Whoever makes the arylic blanks or the carbon fiber blanks or the worthless wood blanks can make the same claims. To put ideas out for all to see and not have them copied is dreaming. Good luck with that one. How many people sell pens and are not even members here.????? You still created the form of the pen and the finish on it and for that you can say you made it. Wow what a shame.
 
Jim in Oakville said:
Nice pen... love the beauty of it.... I can hardly wait to try my own hand at this idea myself.. you can patent a pen? Must be a US thing, glad I'm in Canada!
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Be careful Jim, Barry is coming across the border.:biggrin: Then he is going to all the other places that our members live. :biggrin:
 
jttheclockman said:
Be careful Jim, Barry is coming across the border.:biggrin: Then he is going to all the other places that our members live. :biggrin:
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Yeah ... I've had an email from Barry before... I created a How To make Pens on line using a list of my materials. Included was my then use of abrolon pads. I got them from a Canadian source, but Barry wrote me and was abrupt in demanding I credit him for the pads??? GimmeaBreak! I felt he was rude and intrusive... left me with a lasting impression....
 
Jim in Oakville said:
Yeah ... I've had an email from Barry before... I created a How To make Pens on line using a list of my materials. Included was my then use of abrolon pads. I got them from a Canadian source, but Barry wrote me and was abrupt in demanding I credit him for the pads??? GimmeaBreak! I felt he was rude and intrusive... left me with a lasting impression....
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Why would you have to credit him for the pads? I just did a search and as far as I can tell they are not his. I found them on many sites, and none credited him.

This guy is something else.
 
OK......... How dose one prove they have a Patent, Trade Mark or Copyright on something they made.
Would they not have to do some research to make sure that someone else dose not hold a Patent, Trade Mark or Copyright on what they have made?

Les
 
Reb said:
Just think if the first guy that made a snakeskin pen had Copy write on them.
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Well, technically any "artwork" that any one of us creates is automatically copyrighted the moment the "art" is created.
But the thing is, it only applies to that one particular piece of "art". If I take a photograph of the Lincoln Memorial, no one can use that photograph or a copy of it without my permission. But anyone in the world with a camera can go to D.C. and take their own photograph of the Lincoln Memorial.
Same thing applies here. Barry's watch pen is copyrighted simply because he made it. But that does not mean that no one can make a pen with watch parts in it. I think you guys are taking this too far.
 
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rd_ab_penman said:
OK......... How dose one prove they have a Patent, Trade Mark or Copyright on something they made.
Would they not have to do some research to make sure that someone else dose not hold a Patent, Trade Mark or Copyright on what they have made?

Les
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Patents are registered with the US patent office and are searchable. Trade marks are also registered. Copyrights do not have to be registered, but can be.
 
glycerine said:
.... I think you guys are taking this too far.
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Actually, the way I see it, it's not US guys who are taking this too far! From what I can tell from reading a few threads the person who contacted Jeff about his nicely done pen was taking the matter too far....... the rest is just chatter from those who think the whole thing is disgusting and shopuld have never happened to begin with!

Geeze.......... the crap and egos we have to put up with to make a few ink pens!

But, there is one good thing to all this mess.......... When I went to have a look at the Caran De Ache's 1010 "watch parts" pen, the article explained where it got it's name, "1010". For years I always noticed that in almost every ad you ever see about a watch, the hands show 10:10 and now I know why! That is the position of the hands when they are perfectly balanced with each other! :biggrin:
 
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Oh crap, my "interpretation" of said copyrighted art is set for 10:25 (when I was born...btw I just copyrighted 10:25:biggrin: ) I hope that Caran de Ache doesn't think I stole this idea as well.
 
10:10 is also a jewelers trick, it makes a "smiley face" which is more pleasing to the eye.

Of course, with most watches being battery powered now, this no longer applies as much.
 
If someone was to imitate something I do at this sort of level, I sure would be blushing from flattery about now! The pen is extremely well done. I do not see any glue marks or air bubbles in the resin. If there are any..they are very well hidden!
 
jtdesigns said:
Oh crap, my "interpretation" of said copyrighted art is set for 10:25 (when I was born...btw I just copyrighted 10:25:biggrin: ) I hope that Caran de Ache doesn't think I stole this idea as well.
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I didn't even catch that! :) Let there be no doubt that your work is your own! Funny thing, when you first posted your pen last week I thought, I had seen something along the same lines before but couldn't remember where. Then today when I visited their site I remember seeing their pen before but I never saw the other pen similar to yours until today.
 
Texatdurango said:
Actually, the way I see it, it's not US guys who are taking this too far! From what I can tell from reading a few threads the person who contacted Jeff about his nicely done pen was taking the matter too far....... the rest is just chatter from those who think the whole thing is disgusting and shopuld have never happened to begin with!

Geeze.......... the crap and egos we have to put up with to make a few ink pens!

But, there is one good thing to all this mess.......... When I went to have a look at the Caran De Ache's 1010 "watch parts" pen, the article explained where it got it's name, "1010". For years I always noticed that in almost every ad you ever see about a watch, the hands show 10:10 and now I know why! That is the position of the hands when they are perfectly balanced with each other! :biggrin:
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I could have told you that one too. Also Mike mentioned the jewlers trick and that is also true. I take photos of my clocks when ever and whatever the time is it is. If I were doing it for a catalog then yes you pay attention to that detail.

I also agree I think the whole thing started with one man's ego getting in the way on anothers interpretation of an art piece. Too bad. Does not help one's reputation in my opinion.
 
you also have to wonder what he's going to do when PSI starts marketign the blanks (As I bet they will, as we've seen the carbon fibers and some others appear there)
 
Russianwolf said:
you also have to wonder what he's going to do when PSI starts marketign the blanks (As I bet they will, as we've seen the carbon fibers and some others appear there)
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I'm gonna go 'round to the local flea markets and start buying up all the old watches I can find. I can see the supply and demand raising the prices pretty soon! :)
 
This all sounds like a bunch of silliness to me. Art, and artisitic intrepetation, is available to everyone. Unless you make an EXACT copy of his pen you have no further obligations to him. Monet used flowers in many of his paintings, does that mean I can no longer use flowers in mine? I guess imitation being the highest form of flattery no longer applies.
 
Muggsy1776 said:
This all sounds like a bunch of silliness to me. Art, and artisitic intrepetation, is available to everyone. Unless you make an EXACT copy of his pen you have no further obligations to him. Monet used flowers in many of his paintings, does that mean I can no longer use flowers in mine? I guess imitation being the highest form of flattery no longer applies.
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Painting and wall art is completely different than a pen. A pen is an item of function beyond just looking at it and is subject to different rules. Any copyrights of Monet are long since gone, but when they did exist, the copyrights had nothing to do with flowers. They had to do with his style and interpretation of flowers. If you had never seen his painting, you could sit down for a million years and beyond and you would never come close to duplicating what he did even though you painted a billion plus flowers by now. If you were sitting next to Monet, looking at the same flower patch, you would have a completely different painting from your interpretation and style than he does. Not just 1% or 5% different, it would be 100% different. You see everything different, your style is different, your colors are different, you are in a universe unto yourself. This is the essence of art, it comes from within. You can never copy someone unless you do it intentionally, because everyone is their own snowflake. Any painting expert would be able to point out a thousand differences, not just one, because the flowers themselves are not what is copyright.

Imitation still is flattery and still applies. You can obtain permission to copy something, and if it is something that is copyright but the copyright has little ground to stand on, you can at still give credit where credit is due. If no credit is given, then it's simply stolen, and thus the imitation is no longer flattering.
 
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One other thought I had on this.

I have a regular "date" with my wife. We will both show up at a Borders while out doing errands and have a cup (coffee for her, tea for me) and chat and flip through magazines and books.

I picked up a book from the craft section a couple weeks ago and was curious about it. They used all kinds of found things in art and made some VERY OUTRAGEOUS stuff too. But one of the things I saw lots of were......... watch parts. Yep, vintage watch parts in art and jewelry. Sometime soldered in place, sometimes dangling, and sometimes cast in resin. The style is called Steampunk, do a good search and you find a bunch of stuff.

So what you guys are making is a Steampunk Fountain pen. And the style has been around for at least a decade.

Here are just a few examples of some of it. http://www.google.com/products?rlz=...esult_group&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQzAMwAA

Have fun.
 
Mike

Just go to ebay and you find many dealers with the watch parts. I won an auction there to get a tin can full of these parts in preparation to make these pens. This is not anything new. They are using this in scrapbook making for years. The concept of using watch parts is definetly not a new idea. They are used in bottle stoppers as well. So claim that as a copyrighted idea too. It will not hold water. I think the reason you do not see more pens is because of the time and effort it takes to make up one blank. Like someone said if there is enough demand then one of the big guns will take the idea and run with it. I would not be surprised to see that happen.
 
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Jeff,

I have been following this thread and am somewhat confused why it has become a forum for what can or cannot be claimed as someone's original idea. From what I have read you and Barry had a conversation where he shared with you information on how to make his watch pens and you agreed not to make them for commercial use. You then made some pens and posted them on IAP stating they were part of your Complexity of Time Series of Pens. Barry obviously took this to mean you were not holding up your end of the agreement. I would think this could have been much better resolved through personal communication than a forum on IAP. Just my two cents.


waynewright
 
For what it's worth now, I think these two pens are outstanding. Beautiful craftsmanship, and the watch parts complement the pen components well. Nice job, and I hope you share work like this in the future.
 
For what it's worth, I have a longstanding copyright on website forums (a gift from ALGore after making a sizable donation), and IAP operates at my discretion, so everyone should enjoy it while it lasts... I may get a wild hare one day and shut the entire internet discussion process down completely! :mad: which should free up a lot of bandwidth for all the "cell phones", a name of which which I also hold the copyright. :devil:
 
waynewright said:
Jeff,

I have been following this thread and am somewhat confused why it has become a forum for what can or cannot be claimed as someone's original idea. From what I have read you and Barry had a conversation where he shared with you information on how to make his watch pens and you agreed not to make them for commercial use. You then made some pens and posted them on IAP stating they were part of your Complexity of Time Series of Pens. Barry obviously took this to mean you were not holding up your end of the agreement. I would think this could have been much better resolved through personal communication than a forum on IAP. Just my two cents.


waynewright
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I just came over here after reading the closed thread. I'm shocked it took 7 pages for someone to point out the flip side. Set all the copyright bull aside (that is all it is), and you still have a broken gentleman's agreement. JT asked Barry for help in making a couple of Barry's pens for him and his father. Barry was glad to help, as long as they were made for personal use, or as gifts, and they were not for sale. JT took all that help, and proceeded to unveil his Complexity of Time Series of Pens. I doubt there is anyone who reads that title, and does not envision a line of pens for sale. If you want to copy someone's idea for a pen, knock yourself out - we all do it constantly. If you want to sell your version, so what. But, you're totally wrong when you ask that person for their help, and agree not to sell those pens in exchange, only to soak it all in and go back on your word.
 
I've been following these threads and maybe I missed something. I don't believe Jeff said he was making them to sell. The first pictures he posted were to show a couple of pens he was attempting to put in an art show. He indicated they were part of a series of pens. I took this to indicate that he was making different versions of this pen.
 
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A series can mean a series for sell or a series for an art collection. I also thought that he was refering to the an art collection.

Being an accomplished pencil sketch artist I have entered several shows. In some, I had a "series" of works, that had a theme.

With that I am done with this thread. Jeff keep up the good work!!!
 
Interesting thing is that Barry also has the "motherboard" blank listed as Copyrighted. I KNOW he wasn't the first to do that one.

Oh, and he also has false advertising in that at the top he says all of his eco-pens are available as fountain pens but several models are sierras. I feel like ordering a sierra fountain pen, don't you?

GK
 
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