My first ever Commission - Roman Harvest and Blackboy.

[robutacion]

Hey George,
I hope you haven't posted those blanks back to me yet. If you still have them please either keep them or chuck them in the bin, as they are pretty well useless and I do have a heap more here.
I have been trying some different ways of doing a CA finish while you have been conducting these experiments, and everything I have tried has failed, even to the point of the wood peeling off the tube in my hand. That was not a failure from insufficient glue when fitting the tube, because when the blank was almost to its finished size I applied heaps of thin CA which appeared to be soaking in. It was not until I had applied 1 thin and 4 med coats and sanded and was about to apply the next coat that I realised that the tube and wood had parted company.
There is obviously some kind of resin/inhibitor in the wood which prevents the intake of liquids.
So, chuck 'em out. Don't waste any more money or time.

Thank you so much for all your effort. Like you said, win some loose some.

Cheers,
Bob.

Well Bob, too late mate, I posted them (7) + a gift blank, this morning...!

I have left the turning of the sample a bit too late this afternoon and when I finished it, was almost dark so, I didn't have enough natural light to take a few close ups so, I will do it tomorrow...!

I was a bit surprised when I read your post, the sample that I made looks pretty good, in my eyes and surprisingly, the first 2 thin CA coats I apply to it, not with the applicator but with the lathe off and covering the area with the CA and then smooth it up with the finger while rotating the chuck manually, the wood soaked it quite fast and furious, a little sanding and 6 medium coats followed by 2 thin coats, sand and polish...!

I got the impression that, after I finished the first 2 coats and smooth it up with 600 wet sanding manually, the surface felt extremely hard and smooth, I felt that at that point, I should have give it one more thin coat, and polish, sometimes less is better but, I continued on as normal nevertheless I felt that I passed the ideal finish barrier, anything over, could change its adhesion and performance, with peeling or all the other things your experienced so, its done so, I can't go back, well I could but is not necessary...!

Lets see what this one does, the wood is beautiful and if if holds, you know you have another 7 workable blanks to use at some time...!

And if all goes to $#!t, at least we tried...!:biggrin:

Oh..., I have no doubt that the wood has some chemical component that bleeds out quite easily, that has been my claim from this testing's, sometimes I can reverse its negative results sometimes but rarely, I don't...!

Cheers
George

 

[Bob Wemm]

Wow, George and Bob you both have gone through a lot of effort to try to get this grass tree to work! George you have worked on this like a true scientist! As mentioned before, please ensure very good inhalation protection is used, as it is one of the most cancerous woods. Bob have you tried wipe on poly? Its available in Bunnings produced by a company called Minwax.

Sean, Yes I have and it makes the wood almost black.

Not the result I want.

Cheers,
Bob.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Hi George, Thinking back to when I started this last failure, my head is spinning now, I remember that when I applied the thin CA there was a reaction, it all started fuming and little patches of white appeared, it really looked like it was soaking in. The other half of that blank, (Cap End) is nice and hard and has taken the first half of the CA finish well and has shown no problems.
It seems that there is no guarantee that the blackboy will work the same on either end of the blank. I spent nearly a week on this one just doing one coat at a time and letting the CA cure naturally before the next coat. Then it just peeled off one tube and is still good on the other.
Not worth the drama as far as I am concerned.
I'm sorry you went to so much trouble.

Bob.

Hey George,
I hope you haven't posted those blanks back to me yet. If you still have them please either keep them or chuck them in the bin, as they are pretty well useless and I do have a heap more here.
I have been trying some different ways of doing a CA finish while you have been conducting these experiments, and everything I have tried has failed, even to the point of the wood peeling off the tube in my hand. That was not a failure from insufficient glue when fitting the tube, because when the blank was almost to its finished size I applied heaps of thin CA which appeared to be soaking in. It was not until I had applied 1 thin and 4 med coats and sanded and was about to apply the next coat that I realised that the tube and wood had parted company.
There is obviously some kind of resin/inhibitor in the wood which prevents the intake of liquids.
So, chuck 'em out. Don't waste any more money or time.

Thank you so much for all your effort. Like you said, win some loose some.

Cheers,
Bob.

Well Bob, too late mate, I posted them (7) + a gift blank, this morning...!

I have left the turning of the sample a bit too late this afternoon and when I finished it, was almost dark so, I didn't have enough natural light to take a few close ups so, I will do it tomorrow...!

I was a bit surprised when I read your post, the sample that I made looks pretty good, in my eyes and surprisingly, the first 2 thin CA coats I apply to it, not with the applicator but with the lathe off and covering the area with the CA and then smooth it up with the finger while rotating the chuck manually, the wood soaked it quite fast and furious, a little sanding and 6 medium coats followed by 2 thin coats, sand and polish...!

I got the impression that, after I finished the first 2 coats and smooth it up with 600 wet sanding manually, the surface felt extremely hard and smooth, I felt that at that point, I should have give it one more thin coat, and polish, sometimes less is better but, I continued on as normal nevertheless I felt that I passed the ideal finish barrier, anything over, could change its adhesion and performance, with peeling or all the other things your experienced so, its done so, I can't go back, well I could but is not necessary...!

Lets see what this one does, the wood is beautiful and if if holds, you know you have another 7 workable blanks to use at some time...!

And if all goes to $#!t, at least we tried...!:biggrin:

Oh..., I have no doubt that the wood has some chemical component that bleeds out quite easily, that has been my claim from this testing's, sometimes I can reverse its negative results sometimes but rarely, I don't...!

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

Hi Bob and everyone waiting patiently to see the final results...!:biggrin:

I took the pics this morning when I saw a little clear sky of a day that is predicted overcast so, I took that chance and got some pics taken but, they are not my best for whatever reason, is not the reflections as that was deliberated to allow a clear view of the gloss finish, any small cracks, would show but, its too early yet, we have to wait some days to see what it does...!

Anyway, was the "sharpness" that I had troubles with, this morning so, I show you the best I got from the lot of pics I took...!



I will repeat some pics, in 4 days time, and then again in a week's time, only then I will call this test, finish...!:wink::biggrin:

PS: I never leave things, halfway...!

Cheers
George

 

[wyone]

gorgeous

 

[Bob Wemm]

George,
They look really good. It will be interesting to see what they are like in a week.
Again, Thank you for doing this.

Bob.

 

[robutacion]

George,
They look really good. It will be interesting to see what they are like in a week.
Again, Thank you for doing this.

Bob.

Hi Bob,

There is no "them" but "it"...!, these pics are all taken from a 1 half blank that I kept as the sample.

Yes, I agree, the wood is very pretty and finished quite nicely and, as far as I can see, even though the treatment made the outer of the blanks darker, I expected that I could maintain the fresh cut wood "natural" colour, something that you were specific about.

I recall you saying on a post that, in some of your attempts, you did give a single CA coat and leave it alone until the next day for another coat and so on, with this one, and as with any of the samples of actually pens I make, the 2 +6+2 coats of CA is quite typical and I finish it straight away, (well, maybe 5 minutes later) as the first 1 minute after the CA coating is done and still sipping in the lathe, those first 60 seconds are to me, a very crucial step, even more crucial in cold environments.

Dry or wet sanding with micro grits immediately after 10 coats of CA, is asking for troubles, I use double of the amount of accelerator after the last coast as to I use4 in between coats but, and unless that CA thickness is dry/set/harden, you will be certainly asking for troubles so, I use the heat gun on its max setting to cure the CA, and do so by, maintaining the heat gun at a safe distance from the rotating blank.

Safe distance is a distance where you can maintain you hand in from of the heat gun and not burn you out, this is about 1' to 1' 1/2 depending of the heat gun power.

The second important step is to not keep the heat gun in a single spot, you simple swing non stop, the heat gun from left to right so that the heat doesn't burn the surface but instead cure/harden it for the sanding.

I'm sure that you Bob are perfectly aware of this but, to any other less experience turners following this test, is important that they understand the importance to only sand the CA coats after they are properly set and while most people would prefer to wait a day or 2 to finish it, I don't have the patience to wait that long, I like to start and finish the job in one go and I know that most of you with feel the same way so, 60 seconds of exposure with a heat gun/hair dryer capable of producing approx 60° celsius at the desired distance as mentioned, it will do the same if not better than leaving it overnight or two, with temps are are far and below the 60° celsius, is like the Cactus juice to cure, unless it reaches that recommended temperatures for at least 1 hour, the juice will not set, even if you leave it in the oven for a week...!

So, after all this said and tests done, there is always something to learn, anyone can do tests like this, you don't need that much investment and, if you didn't know how to go about it, this thread will give you something that you can use as a guide and if you get stuck, don't hesitate to contact me

Whatever happens with it Bob, I'm please that I could be of some assistance to you, that's what friends are for, huh...???:wink::biggrin:

PS: I forgot to mention on my pics post, this thing is like a magma for fine dust, I cleaned and cleaned it by the time I got the camera in position, dust particles have already landed on the blank, damn thing...!

Cheers
George

 

[Bob Wemm]

Sorry Mate, I meant all the photos look good, not all the blanks!!!

Cheers,
Bob.

 

[Bob Wemm]

George,
When I do my CA I usually do 1 coat of thin, then 4 coats of med CA, using accelerator after each application. Then I wet sand to 2400 and then apply another 4 coats of med CA, with accelerator after each coat. Then wet sand again to 2400 and finally buff with Tripoli and white diamond. No waiting for anything to cure.
I've not had any trouble until now. That is why I decided to try the one coat and wait plan, to see if that made any difference, but there was nothing doing with that method.
When the blanks get back to me I will try again, this time on a slimline and not assemble it straight away.
I would really like to use the Blackboy for this commission, although I have told Mark that I will use something else.
Just have to wait and see what happens.

Thanks again for your help.

Bob.

 

[OZturner]

Encouraging interim results George, and Bob.
Looks great so far.
Be careful of that dust George, as Sean mentioned, Grass Tree is notorious for respiratory problems, and is reputed to be Carcinogenic.

Also I want you to know that All your Work and effort is Greatly Appreciated, by all of us sitting on the side
Brian.

 

[robutacion]

No problem fellows...!

Bob, I know that you really wanted to put the Blackboy of the commissioned penm reason why I tried to do the best I could to help you out and make that happen, I done all I could so, I'm yet to confirm that, it was a fail, so far so good, the temperatures I getting high and the Blackboy sample is hanging, under the roof shed extension, together with another 50 or more others samples, that I keep there until I'm running out of room and then take them out, sort and put them away in boxes.

The heat coming out of that roof in a hot day is horrendous, the blanks/samples hanging on a nail stuck on the 3x2 pine beam, get "cooked"/exposed to some nasty hot temps, not that, this is part of some test or something but, it will certainly give the samples a extreme heat factor after done and photographed, most I wouldn't care what happen to them, as they served its purpose, many are actually made into a sample while the wood or even the resin is not dry, I only do this when I need a quick pic of how it would like after finished so, I know that these blanks will more, crack and do all sorts of things that will make them ugly to look at, sometime I re-do them when worth it, other times put them]away as they are...!

So, what I'm trying to say is that, the Blackboy sample has been exposed to some extra heat, that tends to push the possible reactions to critical points,as you would if you left a pen in the vehicles dash...!

I will take a couple of pics when I reach 4 days from finishing (what day did I finish it???, have to have a look...!) however, as of today, I checked it and I say no changes so, that is a good sign...! The next few days, is going to be even hotter, we see what will happens...!

Brian, well, I believe that, when you offer to do something, you either do it right/to your capabilities or is better no even start, huh...???

We all learn new things every day, I like to be "specific" (I don't think that is a surprise to nobody) so, I also enjoy the process of makes these tests, they tell me a lot more that one would at first realise so, if my efforts are a benefit and appreciated by IAP members (any members), I reached my goal...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[Band Saw Box]

That's a real shame Bob, but I think it's a nice looking pen.

 

[Dai Sensei]

Geez I wish I had seen this thread earlier, I just don't get the time these days whilst travelling to visit all the different forums.

Grass tree is very porous and the CA would have penetrated quite deeply. CA at depth takes time to go off and can cause the wood to expand in time. My guess would be blank has expanded as the CA set properly cracking your outer surface finish.

All my weird and wonderful blanks are finished with 2-3 coats of thin CA (no accelerator!) and then 5-6 coats of medium or thick CA (accelerator after 3-4 coats), then left for a few days (preferably a week). Then I sand again any defects that appear before applying the final additional 5-10 coats of medium or thick CA (depending on desired thickness of coating).

Many pens I have finished quickly as you have done have produced rippled, lumpy or cracked surfaces as you experienced. Banksia for example if finished this way often results in a dimple at each resin fill as the timber expands around it.

I was surprised to see the Cactus Juice didn't stick to the grass tree George did, interesting result and good to know, but he is on the right track ie it needs stabilisation (similar to banksia pods, some palms & other very porous blanks). I dry my blanks in the dehydrator (as they may appear dry but can contain moisture in the middle) then pop them in a small container of thin CA to soak for a few hours. I remove them with gloves, shake off the excess, then place on some baking paper to set over at least a week. Wear breathing gear and stand back as the fumes can be horrific. Do not do this if the moisture in the air from rain etc is too high, nor use any accelerator, as they will just turn white.

Great to see the effort put in by George, and good to see success eventually. Keep up the good work you guys.

Cheers

 

[robutacion]

Well, I have been keep forgetting to take pics of the sample blanks on the 4th day after I CA it so, sorry about that...!

The day I CA it was the 18/9/2014, even though, I took only the pics on the following day the 19th so, today being the 26/9/2014, this mean that, has been 8 full days.

I had checked it a few days ago and I have reported that I didn't see any cracks, this is in fact what I continued to see today, when I took the pics.

There is only one extra observation that I would like to make, this sample was never drilled so, there is "solid" wood throughout, something that, on Bob's pen there is only a small amount of wood over the brass tube. What this have to do any anything...? I'm not absolutely sure however, is no guarantee that, any of the blanks I treated, including the sample, won't crack at some stage, that is something that I wouldn't dare to guarantee or bet on.

It is was it is, and only Bob can make the decision if he wants to risk to re-do the commissioned pen, using any of the treated blanks , either way, these are the results as promised...!

PS: the reflections on the pics were done deliberately so that we all can see any possible cracks, a little better...!




Cheers
George

 

[Bob Wemm]

Geez I wish I had seen this thread earlier, I just don't get the time these days whilst travelling to visit all the different forums.

Grass tree is very porous and the CA would have penetrated quite deeply. CA at depth takes time to go off and can cause the wood to expand in time. My guess would be blank has expanded as the CA set properly cracking your outer surface finish.

All my weird and wonderful blanks are finished with 2-3 coats of thin CA (no accelerator!) and then 5-6 coats of medium or thick CA (accelerator after 3-4 coats), then left for a few days (preferably a week). Then I sand again any defects that appear before applying the final additional 5-10 coats of medium or thick CA (depending on desired thickness of coating).


Many pens I have finished quickly as you have done have produced rippled, lumpy or cracked surfaces as you experienced. Banksia for example if finished this way often results in a dimple at each resin fill as the timber expands around it.

I was surprised to see the Cactus Juice didn't stick to the grass tree George did, interesting result and good to know, but he is on the right track ie it needs stabilisation (similar to banksia pods, some palms & other very porous blanks). I dry my blanks in the dehydrator (as they may appear dry but can contain moisture in the middle) then pop them in a small container of thin CA to soak for a few hours. I remove them with gloves, shake off the excess, then place on some baking paper to set over at least a week. Wear breathing gear and stand back as the fumes can be horrific. Do not do this if the moisture in the air from rain etc is too high, nor use any accelerator, as they will just turn white.

Great to see the effort put in by George, and good to see success eventually. Keep up the good work you guys.

Cheers

Thanks for that info Neil
It all helps in the long run.

Bob.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Well, I have been keep forgetting to take pics of the sample blanks on the 4th day after I CA it so, sorry about that...!

The day I CA it was the 18/9/2014, even though, I took only the pics on the following day the 19th so, today being the 26/9/2014, this mean that, has been 8 full days.

I had checked it a few days ago and I have reported that I didn't see any cracks, this is in fact what I continued to see today, when I took the pics.

There is only one extra observation that I would like to make, this sample was never drilled so, there is "solid" wood throughout, something that, on Bob's pen there is only a small amount of wood over the brass tube. What this have to do any anything...? I'm not absolutely sure however, is no guarantee that, any of the blanks I treated, including the sample, won't crack at some stage, that is something that I wouldn't dare to guarantee or bet on.

It is was it is, and only Bob can make the decision if he wants to risk to re-do the commissioned pen, using any of the treated blanks , either way, these are the results as promised...!

PS: the reflections on the pics were done deliberately so that we all can see any possible cracks, a little better...!

View attachment 122528View attachment 122529View attachment 122530View attachment 122531View attachment 122532


Cheers
George

Just for further information on this.

4 days ago I decided to try another Blackboy blank, drilled and fitted a pair of Jnr. Gent 2 tubes, turned and did my "Normal" CA finish on them, 1 coat of thin CA, 4coats of Med CA, sanded to 2400, then another4 coats of med CA, sanded and buffed with Tripoli and White Diamond. The tubes are sitting on my desk and there is no sign of cracks at this stage. This blank is an untreated piece.
I have no idea what I did wrong the first time but I suspect that Neil has hit it on the head. I also cannot explain what happened with the other experiments that I did.
I guess that I will do another set of tubes and see what happens.

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread.
It is greatly appreciated.

Bob.

 

[robutacion]

Hi Bob and folks...!

Not that, is that important anymore but, I saw the blackboy sample that I done a few weeks back and had a quick look to see it was any changes from the last time.

I didn't see any problems with the finish, it looked no different than the day I done it.

As a matter of curiosity, I may leave it where it is and have a look every so often, I do this with any of my samples anyway so, nothing different there.

Because my pics are dated, I decided to put here the last pic I took a few days ago and completely forgot that I had it in the camera so, here it goes...!



Cheers
George