Members Only?

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Members Only?

  • Total voters
    4
Skippy,

Agreed. The word "entirely" may be skewing (pun not intended) the results. Can we have a follow up poll??

BTW, Steven - see your wife made the home page! Congrats!! :D:D:D
 
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Jeff, I think the IAP mission statement tells you that this is suppose to be a place to share ideas</u> to help promote the art of penturning.
 
I have had a few customers go one line Google pen kits and then question me about my prices and I tell them that they are more than welcomed to go purchase all of the stuff required to make the pens and practice until they get it right and then decide if my prices are so bad; so far none have not paid my price. So, I don't think closing off any of the site to members only will fix that problem.

That being said, when I first joined I had been making the styles of pens that I make (slim line pens without the center band and considerably fatter than normal slim lines and single piece slim line pencils) I had never seen them before, I am not saying that I was the first but I am saying that I didn't get the idea from anyone, and a few people have asked me how to do it and I pm'd them the instructions on the way that I do it. I have gotten ideas from this site and have tried a few but I don't take the credit for them. I believe that what comes around goes around.

Lastly, as for the amount of post people make dictating membership staus, I stopped posting for a long time because there were a few members getting pissy with people asking questions, things started seeming real cliquish, and that wasn't how it was when I joined, so I just stopped posting. Things seem better now, we have had some pretty sensitive discussions here lately without anybody getting "ugly" about it.

That's my five cents worth.
 
Originally posted by PR_Princess



However, if you want the creativity to be continued here on a higher level, you may want to consider a separate hidden forum or room. A special “members only†section if you will. The criteria for entry can be worked out, but it should involve a certain level of acumen and expertise.
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I really hope it hasn't come to this! When I started here I know I had a lot of the "same old questions" but most made me feel very welcome and I know they saved me a lot of time and money. I in turn try to do the same to the other "rookies" to pay my dues, I see that a lot here. Anyway although there were a lot of inside jokes I didn't understand (I later realized it was just Ed trying to get his post count up :D) I felt no heirarchy here.
If I would have saw there was a "secret room" that only certain people were allowed to go in I certainly wouldn't have felt that way. Also, who decides who gets to go into the "secret room?" I realize I probably feel this way because I never had an idea good enough for anyone to steal and make money on. I do wonder though how many of the ideas that some won't share were in some way influenced by something else you may have seen here or elsewhere, and if you would have come up with this idea if someone else felt the same way you did and never posted it in the first place?
 
Paul,

WRONG!! There is a hierarchy here:

JEFF IS KING,:)

LONG LIVE THE KING:D:D

After that, everybody else is pretty equal.

(Brown-nosing for the day complete!)
 
I too see no sense in allowing casual browsers( or potential customers) to see what our materials and kits cost or what price/profit (if any) we are making on the pens we sell, But if you close down the whole site to non members then where do new members become interested.

Personally I would leave the Show us what you made type areas wide open but move the Group buys sales and ads to an inner area( it is easily done I believe. I have seen it on other sites where I am a member)

How you decide on the membership of these areas is another matter does it come down to those who have posted pics of their pens only, or number of posts. either way you are restricting the membership in some manner.

As for the theft of ideas. Is it a theft if you are unaware of the existance of previous incarnations of ideas. There are only so many ways you can dress a pen kit.

As an example I recently submitted a tip to the AAW magazine. They are using it and paid me for the tip. Now I dont know if anyone has used that idea before but I have since seen references on here to a similar set up using earth magnets, I now ask myself if I have stolen someone else's idea and profited from it, I dont know, and if I have it was never my intention, It was simply an idea that I used to store tools that I do not recall seeing anywhere else.. so where does that leave me if some of you come back and state that you have been using that Idea for years. Am I a thief
 
Originally posted by jhs494

Jeff, I think the IAP mission statement tells you that this is suppose to be a place to share ideas</u> to help promote the art of penturning.
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You just nailed it on the head. Here is a cut and paste (copied[:0] ) from the mission statement posted in the about us section.

The goal of the IAP is to give penturners a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of penturning.

It also states that to become a member all you need is a username and password. So if someone only comes here to garner ideas, then making this member view only would not stop this action. So with it's own ideals clearly listed for eveyone to see, isn't this discussion pretty mute anyway? Or are we going to change things around and have someone dictate who can become a member?

And as for the price thing, do we ask CSUSA, AS, PSI, Ernie and all the others to become member only web sites as a potential customer can see the prices we pay? Go search for the post by Mr. Ed Brown about the woman who told him her husband can make those pens. I am not embarassed by the prices I asked other than them being too low at times. If I have $50 invested in a kit and blank and feel the need to charge $400 for the pen because it is exceptional then so be it. The potential customer can either buy it or not. As far as I am concerned if they don't, then they do not appreciate the effort, time and creativity that went into making it and it is their loss.

Mike
 
Ok, the thing everyone is forgetting is that no information about our pens is given out here that someone can't find by google-searching for it. Price of blanks? Google search. Price of kits? Google search. Cost of tools? Google search. Close down the site to non-members, and you'll find that the customers will just find the information elsewhere.

Ok, so lets say that we create a blockade in which you have to sign up to view anything. Ok, good...now we've stopped the barbarians at the moat. Oh, what's that? Yep, they can just sign up to cross the moat. If anyone's going to take the time to actively search out designs to pass off as their own, then it goes to reason that they won't be stopped by simply having to sign up to view the things they came here to see...

Lets say that to stop this, you make an inner keep in which only the 'experienced' turners get to reside. This will result in ill-will, and feelings of 'why wasn't I invited'. People will stop participating.

There's no information on here that customers couldn't find out elsewhere...so to make false walls that serve no purpose but to discourage potentially-interested (yet unsure) turners from joining, is silly.

As far as the withholding information problem - there is no solution. Do what you think is right. If you want to withhold information, processes, secret recipes, that's fine. It's your prerogative to do whatever you think is right...Share to the best of your abilities, or the limits of your willingness.

Let's just stop messing around with the idea of restricting membership, because it's not going to make any difference to the idea of intellectual property, and it's not going to make any difference to whether your ideas will get stolen; that will happen whether someone's a member or not...all it will do is keep people from joining up, or create a plethora of people signing up and never posting, or perhaps posting just to get to the total required to see the 'forbidden room'...

If we go ahead and make a 'forbidden room', or 'restricted' section, the people who are still worried about posting certain designs will still worry, and we won't see the new designs anyway, because the root problem still exits - internet forums aren't secure. But then again, they were never meant to be.

That's my last word on this... que sera sera!
 
I am undecided on this issue as of right now. I completely understand everyone's feelings on the theft/copy/stealing ideas issue.

But even making "parts" of the site private to members only, how hard is it to become a member here? It only takes a few seconds to register.

The one thing I don't want to see is a section that takes a criteria to get into. For some reason that does not sit well. I guess its the feeling that if the criteria is set too high then some members get left out, what happens then. I don't feel I have come up with anything that is out of this world in making pens, does that leave me lower on the talent pole?
 
I must say I don't sell pens.
But I consider pen turning an art, and if you really think about it the Mona Lisa started as inexpensive art supplies, it became a great work of art at the hands of the artist.
 
I am a relatively new member here as well as being a new penturner. I became interested in pen turning when an IAP member (jrc) graciously offered to show me how to turn pens. I had approached him with an interest in having him make me a few moose antler pens. After a few conversations with Jim about common interests, he thought I might be interested in learning to make my own pens. He offered up some of his time, a lesson on his equipment, a pen kit or two and shared his supply information and opinions on getting myself set up. He even encouraged me to think about selling antler pens (which I am not really interested in at this point). Jim also steered me to IAP as a forum and resource. I will be eternally grateful for his help. Perhaps one day I'll have developed sufficient skill and experience to contribute something substantive to this forum. In the mean time, I greatly appreciate reading many posts and seeiing peoples' work. It saves me time and money, inspires me to try new things and provides occasional feedback. If some people don't feel compelled to share everything they know or do, it is still a fantastic resource and great place to learn. If I might use an analogy - I am a deer hunting enthusiast. I have many deer hunting friends who are comparative experts. They often share tips, thoughts on deer habitat, observations regarding deer behavior, interesting antecdotes and many other points of interest that improve my understanding of the sport and increase my enjoyment. They rarely offer up their best hunting hotspots or the location of current deer sign concentrations. In other words, they provide substantial general guidance, answer questions, help with equipment and techniques, but leave me on my own to take it from there. Since joining IAP, with jrc's help and that of forum members, I have turned about 30-40 pens. Most were from moose antler that I found here in Vermont. A few were from an old beat up hickory cane that my grandmother left my mother (I now have several relatives treasuring "Grandma Pearl Cane Pens"). By my way of thinking, the folks on this forum who choose not to share every cutting edge detail should be viewed as 90% generous, not 10% selfish. I, for one, greatly appreciate their generousity. IMHO efforts to restrict viewing and/or membership will not solve the problem of potential unauthorized use of ideas.
 
For what it's worth:
I'm one of the new guys. I don't post alot. I read everything. If this site was not open like it is, I probably would not have become the addict that I am. I spent several days reading everthing. I was amazed and still am amazed at the pens posted. I keep learning things everytime I log in, which is every day. Not only have I learned to make a pen (and even one someone would pay for!), it has helped my other turning projects and broadened my imagination. The help I received from members here is the reason. I'm not in this for the money but I respect those of you that are. You need to protect your income. If I were doing something special and it was my source of income, I would protect it too. I see the special pens, the unique (to me) designs and tell myself that I want to try that too. Somewhere there is a compromise. I hope we find it because I would hate to lose the inspiration I get from pens posted here.
 
I voted "no." I am a rank newbie at pen turning. Through the graciousness of Jim Shaver (Jim in Oakville), I am learning rapidly. Jim has been very willing to share information, tips and tricks with me. I get the same feeling from reading the other forum entries. For example, I would not have thought of using CA as a finish this early in my turning and would not have the "guts" to try it without being able to ask questions of a guru.

Other fouums that I am a member of only allow a very limited number of the areas to be open - works for them, but then again the topics are of the forum are fairly esoteric and the worldwide population of interested parties is small and not growing at a large rate. Could it be because the information is not as readily available as it is here?
 
I think the tutorials should be private and the show off your pens should be. If someone wants to learn a bunch from the site they should sign up.

GK
 
Originally posted by slick

I can understand how SOME content would require a membership, but general useage should not. Of course I'm not a member...yet (gonna have to rectify that).
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Of course you are a member. Otherwise you would not be able to post.
 
Originally posted by ed4copies

.....Most of the "Very talented" are also members of the PMG, where they can retreat to talk with other talented people. (I am not a PMG member and I don't consider myself in the "very talented" pool, just for those who might think this a "snobby" comment)
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It is not much of a retreat. I am not a member of the PMG; but can (unless the policy has changed recently) view all of their posts and all of their pictures as can any individual with Internet access.
 
Originally posted by Randy_

Originally posted by ed4copies

.....Most of the "Very talented" are also members of the PMG, where they can retreat to talk with other talented people. (I am not a PMG member and I don't consider myself in the "very talented" pool, just for those who might think this a "snobby" comment)
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It is not much of a retreat. I am not a member of the PMG; but can (unless the policy has changed recently) view all of their posts and all of their pictures as can any individual with Internet access.
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Can you post on the PMG forum? I believe that is what Ed was referring to when he says "talk".
 
This is a very nice theoretical discussion; but the reality is that the current difference between a member and a non-member is about 30 seconds of someone's time and about fifty key strokes. I agree with a previous comment that requiring membership may discourage a few of the most casual surfers; but think it unlikely to deter anyone with a serious desire to visit and "borrow." Balance that against the loss of legitimate inquiries and potential new contributing members and my gut tells me it will be IAP that suffers.
 
Originally posted by Ozzy

I have had a few customers go one line Google pen kits and then question me about my prices and I tell them that they are more than welcomed to go purchase all of the stuff required to make the pens and practice until they get it right and then decide if my prices are so bad; so far none have not paid my price.
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I had a friend that had a lot fo interest in my pens. over a couple of months he bought a couple of 40 or 50 dollar ones and bartered with me for a couple more. I envited him to check ou this group, even gave him some of my catalogs to look at for other pen styles he liked.
Being a crafty person himself the bug finally bit. I taught him how to make a pen, the eventually made 3 or 4 of them on my equipment. Those where the only cheap pens he ever got. after that he bought his own equipment, so the next pen cost him $600. He new cause he kept track. The last time I spoke to him, he told me that if he ever needed a really nice pen, he would come see me to work out a trade.
My customers pay for what I know and my skill.
 
Originally posted by Mudder

.....Can you post on the PMG forum? I believe that is what Ed was referring to when he says "talk".
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No. A non-member cannot post on the PMG forum. I understood (perhaps erroneously) the word "retreat" to imply that the talented went to the PMG forum for privacy and protection from the "borrowers." If you can see the pictures and read the posts, then you certainly have much of what you need to borrow material. You don't need to be able to "talk."
 
I am worn out from reading so I'll skip to making my entry ...

Leave the FORUM open for reading by interested individuals, however, make POSTING to the FORUM a Members Only thing. Also, verify the member's info with an e-mail back to them to verify their information prior to
allowing them to post anything at all. Make the data info on each member joining a mandatory thing as well, i.e., location to include state and city, etc.

I figure it this way, if someone wants to join the rest of us them they should want to share with us who they are, where they hail from, etc. :D
 
Sorry but our quota of people named Heatherosous Silcrhmbacker from Upilunga,Louisiana is full access denied.
Originally posted by Randy_

My name is Heatherosous Silcrhmbacker and I live in Upilunga, Louisiana. I would like to join IAP. Thanks.
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I am another one of those new guys here who is in sponge mode for the time being, and I lurked for a while before joining. Posting pictures of run of the mill slimlines while I learn how to do this seems like a waste of bandwidth and server space so I haven't.

Not allowing the public to view this forum will kill it. Requiring a minimum number of posts will kill it. Not sharing what you know on this forum will kill it. Why? I, like many people, read through a lot of the threads on this forum before deciding to join, and one day I will contribute something that someone (maybe even you) will find interesting, intriguing, or inspiring, and we'll all be better for it and enjoy penturning more.

Requiring registration to view posts is pointless. It is easy to register (and should stay that way), and as others have pointed out, there are 1000's of people who have registered without posting which means they went through the registration process for no reason. That tells me registration is like putting a lock on a 42" chain link fence - You aren't stopping anyone that wants to come in. Stopping spambots and anonymous flaming is the benefit of registration.

To those who want secret rooms, etc, - you are more than welcome to start your own forum with whatever barriers to entry you want, and you can keep your double secret passwords and Members Only jackets. My guess is it will flop, and if it does't, more power to you. Something like that is against the spirit of this forum.

To those who need to protect their business interests - by all means do so, and keep your newest innovative products to yourself until you've had some time to capitalize on it. However as it has been pointed out many times, once you go to one show/store/gallery, your design is public knowledge so share it with us eventually. If you don't want to share your pricing, costs, income, then don't, but don't chastise those who do or want to discuuss it.

To those of you who post your creations - Thanks for the inspiration.
To those of you who answer the same dumb newbie questions over and over - Thanks for the help.
To those who have shared kind words - Thanks for the welcome.
 
I agree that not all should be available. What is the reason to become a member otherwise? To ask a question? Lots of my questions have been answered by lurking around and reading.

Don't give the milk away :)
lr
 
It seems to me that restricting membership would defeat the whole purpose of the IAP site. This site was founded to educate and share pencrafting. Has that changed? How can we educate if we start locking the gates?

Why would anyone not want to publish pictures of their pens? The secrets we keep are not the final product, but how we made it. Showing the pen doesn't give away the techniques we use to get there. Whether or not we share those techniques is a personal matter.

It also seems to me that any pen maker worth their salt would see someone copying their ideas as a challenge to stay ahead of the competition and come up with new ideas to challenge the competition. That's how things improve. If it weren't for people doing that, we would all still be making B2B SlimLines.
 
Originally posted by PR_Princess

...Nevertheless, after four years of rapid growth, a watershed has been reached. Many turners here are at or beyond a jumping off point in the art. It would be unfair to continue ask them to contribute everything they know to the general public, or admonish them for not doing so...
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I really like what Dawn has to say, and I think it's a great point. When we get so good at pen turning that we start coming up with truly unique ideas, there's not a thing wrong with keeping those intellectual properties to yourself. That's a privilege of being a master, the right to protect your investment in your art.

For those masters who choose to be very open and forthcoming about their secrets, everyone appreciates it. For those that don't feel as comfortable sharing, everyone should respect that.

Daniel also had an interesting idea back on page two to sort of set up a time stamp patent library. If someone thinks that they have/had an original idea, 'register' it with a link to the associated thread, which will have a date. If anyone disputes, let's see the link to the earlier thread. Something like this would probably be policed quite handily by the members, and since the original point of this thread was to circumvent blatant thievery, I think this would at least get the word out in the community, and give someone whose ideas were stolen (from THIS forum) some basis for their claims.

I don't know how much this would curb the lurkers from stealing ideas and never registering here, but still making the pens and selling at shows, though. I guess anyone could say that they've been making that design for years, but never posted it, or whatever. Yargh.

You know what? My brain hurts. This is a very complex issue, I don't have a good answer, but I do know that it's a real concern. I think that if I came up with an idea, knew it was mine-all-mine, and then saw some knucklehead passing off copies of it at a show, I'd be real hard pressed not to walk up and feed him those pens. I'd be real upset about something like that, but only if I was 110% sure that it was my original idea.

There have been many people who have said the same thing I feel, which sums up to, "if someone steals your widget design, build a better widget". Anyone innovative enough to create something totally unique will surely have the gumption to outperform the wannabes, but it still sticks it in and breaks it off.

I think I'm gonna go learn how to crochet. [xx(]
 
I think I'm about to have one of those Doc-Oprah moments!!

I hope everyone's taking this discussion in the light it was intended - to make the IAP a better place. I hope no one has hard feelings if anyone says something that differs from their viewpoint.

This forum is a wonderful community that I find extremely interesting, entertaining, and stimulating. I never would have made a pen if I didn't visit here! I don't want to offend anyone by suggesting that they should share anything they don't want to share - truly, I don't. All I want is to ensure that the IAP is constantly striving to make the newer turners, and the experienced turners, better! The way that we do this is to share.

I don't know if I was clear before, but I don't want people to give away their secrets if they don't want to - I don't understand the nuances and subtleties of markets and protecting your products...but given the discussion that has ensued, I think I now understand that those of you who make your living might have a lot to lose by giving away 'trade secrets'. All I ask is that you keep helping those of us who aren't at your level, by giving us encouragement, praise (when we deserve it, constructive criticism when we don't), and patience!

At this point in my turning education, what is most rewarding to me is seeing finished products. I'm such a novice, I can't even segment with any success! But I really do like to see some of the great creations that are made here, and hope that they will inspire me to become better! If you gave me a 'recipe', I wouldn't follow it exactly anyway, but that's just my style...When I talk about my fear that people will stop sharing, I don't mean that they will stop sharing their greatest secrets - I'm worried that people will stop sharing altogether.

But my greatest fear is that someone will misconstrue what I was saying, and hold me in ill will. I'm not asking you to 'give away the farm'...I just want to make sure people keep participating, and keep showing their pens...because once we stop sharing, it could easily become a slippery slope....

So again, I hope I haven't offended anyone in the course of this discussion. The IAP is a close-knit community, and a very welcoming one...let's keep it this way!

Andrew
 
IAP was built on the premise of creating a supportive learning environment, a community of learners.

I don't belong to an exclusive country club ..... or any country club for that matter .... and, I wouldn't want to see IAP become one.

Keep her wide open.
 
I vote no.
As for as someone seeing what you pay for a pen kit, you are not selling a kit you are selling a custom one of a kind pen.
Had a man see a arrow pen I made ask how much I was asking for it told he $45, then wanted to know how much it cost to make, handed he a kit and an arrow and said that will be $10 ask me how to put it together told him that would be another $35.
 
I "lurked" for several months before I joined. If "lurking" wasn't allowed I NEVER would have found penturning.If I never would have found penturning I never would have found this great group of people. Can you see where this is going? Keep 'er open!
 
aaahhhhhh I can't stand it !!! the guild has been mentioned just once to many times for me.[}:)]
OK that was supposed to be funny so laugh. In truth I know beyond a doubt to just shut my mouth about the guild. But I can't. for those of you that do not know. I made the only enemies I have among the pen turning community with my views of the guild. I will keep these comments friendly.
The guild was born basically for a desire to have a less cluttered environment for advanced turners to converse. You must see this desire in the light that there alternative was a yahoo group. All conversations where conducted as a single thread. following a topic such as this one was nearly impossible. from that desire grew the guild that you see today. This group was also born during that same period of time, and I believe for some of the same reasons, A more effective place to share ideas. In the time I have been a member of this group I have seen the time it takes a new turner to improve there work has drastically reduced. Ideas that time and time again failed to develop on the yahoo group where tackled in a very short time here. Like home stabilization of wood, Casting our own acrylics, Several different methods of CA finishing, mandrel less turning, several member made products or tools, group buys have gone through the roof. Yahoo had one on going group buy and it was dying off. Segmentation until this group was largely limited to stripes or bands. I can go on and on. I have seen this group put pen turning advancement in the fast lane. Not only do we share ideas, but those ideas are recorded in such a way that they can be found by others at a much later date. this allows an idea that might have gotten lost in the mist of time to be renewed with a fresh mind and fresh interest.
In the end the guild began on the Idea that it would be the best pen turners, advancing the art of pen turning. I am not sure there has ever been an advancement come from the guild.
I have seen several ideas that it's members developed in the community in general get taken there. What I do see all the time is that organizing the melting pot of pen turners in general has.
 
WOW....Daniel great to see your post.
I would like to comment on a couple phrases if I may.

"Segmentation until this group was largely limited to stripes or bands." I totally disagree with this statement. Here is why.
Segmentation of pens has been around for a long long time. I remember seeing segmented pens on the Yahoo group that amazed me. What I saw on the Yahoo group is what pushed me to try it.

"I am not sure there has ever been an advancement come from the guild."
This is amazingly not true. There are some amazing pens that are new developments that come out of the Guild members that are never seen.
I was given a pen that was created by two members that is absolutely amazing....they have developed techniques that I had not seen before I held this pen in my hand.

Yes I am a member of the Guild and honestly I am not trying to defend it or the Yahoo group. I am just stating my opinion as you have.

Thus we can stay friends!:D
 
Ron,

You and I have disagreed in the past, and may well do so again. This time you and I are in perfect agreement. I likely will never be a member of the PMG, but I also will never choose to denigrate the PMG because I cannot achieve membership. You showed amazing restraint in your most dignified posting and I salute you for that.
 
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