Kits in Chrome and gunmetal

[Willee]

I have made well over a thousand pens and have only had one returned due to the plating and that was a flaw that was obvious. I have looked at a few pens that I have made and asked the owner to return it to me for a tuneup because I felt the plating was worn more than it should be. Is there a possibility that a customer is just used to the pen and doesn't mind the plating wearing since they are comfortable with the pen but we see it differently since we are used to seeing them new and pristine?

I got one guy that insists on carrying his pens in his front pocket along with his car keys and other items. It dont matter what plating is on that pen ... it aint gonna last 5 weeks.
I have rebuilt 4 of his pens and told him to either stop treating them like that or stop bringing them back to me.
I got 3 of his trashed out pens laying in my odds and inns bin and I do not intend on doing anything to them.

The photo shows a pen I made for him three or four years ago.
It has been completely rebuilt three times ... there will not be a forth.
This is the only pen I have seen TN coating wear.
The black nib part usually wears away to silver.

Any of you guys want this customer?

 

[Willee]

What's the difference between Rhodium and Platinum and Chrome would be a better question. They all look the same to me.

The coloration is slightly different. I have a neighbor who makes a living creating custom jewelry. He can tell which is what from just a glance but I have to hold them side-by-side to detect a difference.

Regards,
Eric

Ah, but what about wear-ability?

You mean those high end pens are actually intended to be used?
I thought they just sat in some fancy box on a desk like a trophy or something.

They will last a lifetime if you dont carry them around in your pocket and use them.

Just my personal opinion based on 9 years of pen making ... Chrome (if plated properly) will out wear anything else on pen parts.
Have not used enough TN yet to know if it actually lasts longer than chrome.

Of Course ...Your mileage may differ and I respect opposing views.

 

[KenV]

They will all wear - I have a "reliable vendor" cigar that I carry every day, day in an day out - for 5+ years now. (well it has been misplaced a few times). Black Ti plating is clearly worn through at the edges at the finial, center band (top section) and at the nib where it screws onto the black plastic insert. The CA finish is blotched, and there are some scratches on the clip.

Heavy use for multiple years -- yup. Problem -- just normal wear over time to me.

 

[Russianwolf]

My daily writer in the office is a Chrome Baron Fountain. I have been using it nearly daily (okay 5 days a week) for about 2 years now.

The front section has the lovely spiral scratches that we hopefully have all learned to avoid (it was one of my first fountains), and the threads are starting to show some brass underneath (known weakness of the Barons). Otherwise the pen still looks great. Oh.... wait..... looking at it again..... nope, that's dirt. :wink:

 

[Smitty37]

I take exception

At the same time "no complaints" doesn't mean its not happening, just that the customer is getting what they expect.

Without going into details, my customers do not hesitate to seek redress for any quality reason....most of them are a missing part from a kit. They know I will replace the kit so I don't think they hesitate if they don't like the plating.

 

[Smitty37]

I have made well over a thousand pens and have only had one returned due to the plating and that was a flaw that was obvious. I have looked at a few pens that I have made and asked the owner to return it to me for a tuneup because I felt the plating was worn more than it should be. Is there a possibility that a customer is just used to the pen and doesn't mind the plating wearing since they are comfortable with the pen but we see it differently since we are used to seeing them new and pristine?

I got one guy that insists on carrying his pens in his front pocket along with his car keys and other items. It dont matter what plating is on that pen ... it aint gonna last 5 weeks.
I have rebuilt 4 of his pens and told him to either stop treating them like that or stop bringing them back to me.
I got 3 of his trashed out pens laying in my odds and inns bin and I do not intend on doing anything to them.

The photo shows a pen I made for him three or four years ago.
It has been completely rebuilt three times ... there will not be a forth.
This is the only pen I have seen TN coating wear.
The black nib part usually wears away to silver.

Any of you guys want this customer?

LOL....that's where I carry mine about half the time. Guess what, mine is Platinum (low price market) and it's not showing a bit of wear after about 6 months.

 

[Smitty37]

Gold Titanium

I do know that I am not happy with the wear of Gold Titanium. I would have thought that it would last much longer then a year or two or I wouldn't be selling it with a warranty. I may have to rethink my policy on platings period.

Titanium nitride (gold TI) is usually plated extremely thin often as thin as 5 microns...I have not asked my vendor about it but in reading from various internet sources that's what I've found. 5 microns is not very thick regardless of how hard the material is. I beleive it is plated thin due to it being a brittle alloy, but It will take me more reading to find out about that.

 

[Smitty37]

TI drill bits

Hey Rob,

Think about this for a moment. Your (well my) drill bits are titanium plated. I am not great at sharpening them, so they sometimes get VERY hot, but the titanium is still on each of the 114 pieces that I bought for $40. So for an average of 35 CENTS they could make drill bits that average 3/8"--larger than MOST kits.

So, the plating cost is established as under a buck. NOW, the pen kit manufacturers know you want to HEAR you are getting Titanium. They also know you have no means to test their assertion.

Do you suppose some may LIE?????

I believe this is more likely than the premise that you HAD titanium and someone gave it more wear than my drill bit (especially the 25/64 which has drilled easily a thousand cigar pen blanks).

Don't damn the plating, damn the plater!!

It probably will never wear off, i've had mine for years and like most people I drill nearly all the same size holes (slightly smaller than #6,#8,#10 wood screws) so some have had a ton of use....but I'm still not 100% sure that TI bits last longer than regular carbon steel bits, but in general they don't seem to be more expensive either. Drill bits, like pen kits seem to have a really wide swing in price for the same size bit.

 

[Smitty37]

Difference

What's the difference between Rhodium and Platinum and Chrome would be a better question. They all look the same to me.

The coloration is slightly different. I have a neighbor who makes a living creating custom jewelry. He can tell which is what from just a glance but I have to hold them side-by-side to detect a difference.

Regards,
Eric

Rhodium and Platinum are used interchangeably in terminology. I.E. What the seller calls Platinum might well actually be Rhodium. Rhodium is in what is called the "Platinum Family" of metals. Rhodium should not be expected to exhibit wear qualities much different from gold and silver. Chrome is a different metal entirely, Much harder just about as shiney and will wear much better than gold or Platinum.

 

[Smitty37]

Wear

I'd really like to hear the difference between rhodium and chrome.

CSUSA says everything is rhodium--ok
Can anyone tell the difference between this and chrome?
I have never had either plating returned to me---

Any comments?

Contrary to what's been said here...Rhodium is much softer than chrome and in jewelry is known to exhibit fairly poor wear ...it is often used as a plating on items made of white gold and is know to wear off rings in as little as 2 years....Chrome as is observable on older cars is quite tough and wears very well. Can you tell the difference in looks...I can when they are side by side but not otherwise...although rhodium is a tad brighter. It's a little harder for me to tell rhodium from silver

 

[Smitty37]

Durability

Ed, I think there is a slight color difference between the two, but yeah, in terms of durability they are pretty close. Haven't seen many Rhodium plated bumpers to do a long term comparison with. :biggrin:

Chrome hands down on durability....Just by the nature of the metal.

 

[wolftat]

I just opened up my shipment of kits and put a bunch of chrome and a bunch of platinum out on the table and as far as my eyes see things, it is indistinguishable to me. I'm sure there are people that can tell the difference but I am wondering how much of a difference there really is other than in cost.

 

[Smitty37]

True enough

As Ed said, it depends on the plater. Why else would a hi end pen company, be it Mont Blanc or who ever, use a 24k gold finish, as was shown recently in a link in an earlier post here?

Mannie, the 24K plating on a Mont Blanc is about 10 times thicker than what we get on the kits we buy.
The thicker it is plated the longer it will last and the more it will cost.

The COST of the gold is negligible (in single digit pennies) for any plating we might use. We had a LOT of gold plating done, when Dawn did glass--each 1 foot square panel cost a couple bucks---mostly labor to hang the piece.

I know we try not to indict any vendors, here and I strongly agree with that policy. BUT, as long as there are "Apprentice" and "Funline" kits available in gun metal (or any other plating), we certainly should NOT EXPECT them to perform like their more expensive (and quality controlled) older brothers.

Both PSI and CSUSA have stated that these pens are built for the "price sensitive" market---sounds much better than "they are cheap--don't EXPECT too much!!!

So, as I have said before----AVOID universal statements: Gun metal is neither WONDERFUL nor HORRIBLE. It will provide the durability that was designed into it---which is a factor you cannot control nor evaluate with the level of knowledge we possess.

How do you get kits that are durable? Buy them from a reputable source that SAYS they will be durable.

If the source SAYS they are for the market "where price is the primary concern", they are TELLING YOU what to expect--NOT durability.

That's true enough Ed, as far as it goes. Most vendors though offer the same finishes i.e. 24kt gold, gun metal, etc. in more expensive kits as well as the "price sensitive". I would venture a bet that 24kt gold plated slimlines of various styles are by far the biggest selling pen kits. And, just about every seller of pen kits offers some variation of 24kt gold. The favorites of my customers are 24kt gold, gun metal, chrome, copper, black chrome, and silver. Note that only 2 of those are metals that should exhibit better finish wear properties.

 

[Smitty37]

I'd almost take that bet

The COST of the gold is negligible (in single digit pennies) for any plating we might use. We had a LOT of gold plating done, when Dawn did glass--each 1 foot square panel cost a couple bucks---mostly labor to hang the piece.

If this is true then the cost for a 10K should be the same as a 24K gold plated pen kit.

How thick is the plating on a 24K Mont Blank pen?
Do you know?
I dont but I am willing to say it is at least 10 times thicker than what is on the kits PSI sells.

Anyhow, I use a lot of chrome pen kits cause they are cheap and durable.
If I want gold I use TN.
I want my pens to look as good a year from now as they do when I sell them.
The gold plating we get just wont hold up under use.

I'd almost be willing to take that bet.

First because I'm sure that plating, like about everything else, reaches a "point of diminishing return" where making it thicker no longer improves the wear properties enough to make it worth doing.

Second because the wear properties of 24kt gold can be improved (and is on nearly all pen kits) by simply adding a clear coat of epoxy over the gold.

With regard to your last statement...if that is so, why is 24kt gold the most popular finish? It surely isn't the cheapest. So what makes it so popular? Maybe there is something out there that would make sense as to why one the least durable finishes is the most common.

 

[ed4copies]

It makes a pretty pen.

AND the old "status symbol" Cross pens were gold.

 

[Smitty37]

hardness

I was a little off...chromium is indeed harder than Rhodium but not all that much so the wear properties should be similar.

 

[Smitty37]

True

It makes a pretty pen.

AND the old "status symbol" Cross pens were gold.

True, but they also came in a highly polishes stainless steel for nearly the same price. Got that variety as a gift one time.

 

[Moosewatcher]

I have stopped using gun metal. Was holding a Sketch pencil from PSI in my hand while I searched for a box and noticed discoloration where I had been holding it. Acids (or oils) from my hands took the finish right off. Tried same experiment on two more in stock, same think. Chrome ones were fine. Also have had the same thing happen to economy brushed gold platings. I now only use rhodium, titanium gold, black ti, and chrome.

Ken

 

[Smitty37]

plating thickness

For what it is worth...the Titanium gold plating from a "price sensitive" vendor is 30 to 40 microns and the 24kt Gold is 20 to 30 microns but sealed with epoxy. On the surface TI is harder and thicker so it should wear much longer...with the epoxy thrown in...who knows. I did not inquire as to the thickness of plating on their chromium kits.

For younger folks; since the word is not in common use anymore, a micron is 1/1000000th of a meter. Pretty small and the word actually comes from a greek word meaning "small".

 

[ldb2000]

Gold plating is measured in "Micro inches" (0.000001") a "Micron" is about 40 Micro inches . Most standard pens are plated with anywhere from .5 to 2 Microns . For hard gold 100 micro inches , 2.5 Microns , are about the limit any more then that the graininess starts to show up as a matt finish due to the larger grains of the hardened gold .
The FTC standard for jewelry plating is 20 micro inches minimum for it to legally be called 24K gold plated .

 

[rbruce2u]

Chrome Plating

My brother in law owned a plating shop for 40 years and I remember when he would chrome plate things he would plate the item first with copper then nickle then chrome which I recall is a clear coat and it is the nickle that is the silver you see. I wonder if they do the same with pen parts?

 

[cschimmel]

My daily writer in the office is a Chrome Baron Fountain. I have been using it nearly daily (okay 5 days a week) for about 2 years now.

The front section has the lovely spiral scratches that we hopefully have all learned to avoid (it was one of my first fountains), and the threads are starting to show some brass underneath (known weakness of the Barons). Otherwise the pen still looks great. Oh.... wait..... looking at it again..... nope, that's dirt. :wink:

How do you avoid the spiral scratches???

 

[ldb2000]

The process you describe is called "Triple Chrome plating" . It is done this way to improve the quality and durability of the plating . Copper is first plated to the base metal to prevent corrosion of the base metal and create an even electrically conductive layer . Then Nickel is plated to provide a diffusion barrier between the copper and Chromium plating and to create a hard reflective layer which is then plated with the Chromium which is quite hard and it enhances the bright Nickel surface .
Pen kits do not require the copper plating if they are brass based but do get a Nickel plate to create a bright surface that enhances the reflectivity of the gold plate . On a Gold Ti kit a layer of Titanium Nitride is applied to the Nickel first and then plated with gold which enhances the durability of the Gold plate . Basically as the gold plate starts to wear the gold colored Titanium Nitride prolongs the Gold look to the kit .

 

[Smitty37]

vendor incorrect

Gold plating is measured in "Micro inches" (0.000001") a "Micron" is about 40 Micro inches . Most standard pens are plated with anywhere from .5 to 2 Microns . For hard gold 100 micro inches , 2.5 Microns , are about the limit any more then that the graininess starts to show up as a matt finish due to the larger grains of the hardened gold .
The FTC standard for jewelry plating is 20 micro inches minimum for it to legally be called 24K gold plated .

You're right a micro inch would be 39.37 microns - it looks like maybe the number the vendor gave me had a misplaced decimal point. They said .02 - .03mm for Gold and .03 -.04mm for TI which would be 20 to 40 microns which would then be 800 to 1200 micro inches which might be too thick to be true.

 

[Smitty37]

Silver

That nickel plating might be why we don't hear of silver plating being prone to premature wear.. since bo the nickel and silver are a bright silver color even though silver is a fairly soft metal wear wouldn't show as much.

 

[Russianwolf]

My daily writer in the office is a Chrome Baron Fountain. I have been using it nearly daily (okay 5 days a week) for about 2 years now.

The front section has the lovely spiral scratches that we hopefully have all learned to avoid (it was one of my first fountains), and the threads are starting to show some brass underneath (known weakness of the Barons). Otherwise the pen still looks great. Oh.... wait..... looking at it again..... nope, that's dirt. :wink:

How do you avoid the spiral scratches???

the spiral scratches are caused by the top inside edge of the plastic coupler in the cap. If you chamfer the top edge, you shouldn't have the problem any longer.

 

[avbill]

How does upgraded gold fit into this mess of plating durability?

 

[Russianwolf]

How does upgraded gold fit into this mess of plating durability?

Upgrade Gold is either a 10k or 14k gold plate. It may also have a coating on it, I forget. The short is that it's more durable than 24k since it's a harder alloy, but it still isn't great.

 

[ed4copies]

The process you describe is called "Triple Chrome plating" . It is done this way to improve the quality and durability of the plating . Copper is first plated to the base metal to prevent corrosion of the base metal and create an even electrically conductive layer . Then Nickel is plated to provide a diffusion barrier between the copper and Chromium plating and to create a hard reflective layer which is then plated with the Chromium which is quite hard and it enhances the bright Nickel surface .
Pen kits do not require the copper plating if they are brass based but do get a Nickel plate to create a bright surface that enhances the reflectivity of the gold plate . On a Gold Ti kit a layer of Titanium Nitride is applied to the Nickel first and then plated with gold which enhances the durability of the Gold plate . Basically as the gold plate starts to wear the gold colored Titanium Nitride prolongs the Gold look to the kit .

Butch,

I have heard and believe this explanation. But it was given to me by Berea. As I understood our conversation this was a distinction between the way THEY do it and the way others do it.

Is this a universal truth, or do you also believe one vendor's method differs from anothers??

 

[ed4copies]

How does upgraded gold fit into this mess of plating durability?

Upgrade Gold is either a 10k or 14k gold plate. It may also have a coating on it, I forget. The short is that it's more durable than 24k since it's a harder alloy, but it still isn't great.

Here again, I have only heard the term "upgrade gold" used to describe kits made by Berea. My understanding was that the "overcoat" of clear protectant was the difference---Is there another "upgrade" used generically, or was I just DEAD WRONG?????

(Go ahead, I CAN handle the truth!!)

 

[ldb2000]

This is a common method for plating so I would say that Berea is not the only one who does it this way .

 

[Russianwolf]

How does upgraded gold fit into this mess of plating durability?

Upgrade Gold is either a 10k or 14k gold plate. It may also have a coating on it, I forget. The short is that it's more durable than 24k since it's a harder alloy, but it still isn't great.

Here again, I have only heard the term "upgrade gold" used to describe kits made by Berea. My understanding was that the "overcoat" of clear protectant was the difference---Is there another "upgrade" used generically, or was I just DEAD WRONG?????

(Go ahead, I CAN handle the truth!!)

From Berea's site

Upgrade Gold

All gold plating we use on our kits is 24K "upgrade gold". Upgrade means that the parts are plated using the rack method and that small amounts of cobalt or palladium are added to the plating chemicals. This enhances the durability of the gold plating. The tumbled method, which we do not use, produces an inferior gold plating and is less costly.

The problem is when you add "small amounts of cobalt or palladium" it isn't 24k any longer, is it? It may be better than the 14k I mentioned above, but only pure gold can wear the 24k title. They don't mention an overcoat, so who knows.

I was also thinking of CSUSA's 10k kits as being "upgrade" but they don't use the term.

 

[Smitty37]

UPGRADE GOLD

How does upgraded gold fit into this mess of plating durability?

I think it has an epoxy coat...I'm not sure if they change from 24kt to an alloy gold.

 

[Smitty37]

Right

How does upgraded gold fit into this mess of plating durability?

Upgrade Gold is either a 10k or 14k gold plate. It may also have a coating on it, I forget. The short is that it's more durable than 24k since it's a harder alloy, but it still isn't great.

Here again, I have only heard the term "upgrade gold" used to describe kits made by Berea. My understanding was that the "overcoat" of clear protectant was the difference---Is there another "upgrade" used generically, or was I just DEAD WRONG?????

(Go ahead, I CAN handle the truth!!)

From Berea's site

Upgrade Gold

All gold plating we use on our kits is 24K "upgrade gold". Upgrade means that the parts are plated using the rack method and that small amounts of cobalt or palladium are added to the plating chemicals. This enhances the durability of the gold plating. The tumbled method, which we do not use, produces an inferior gold plating and is less costly.

The problem is when you add "small amounts of cobalt or palladium" it isn't 24k any longer, is it? It may be better than the 14k I mentioned above, but only pure gold can wear the 24k title. They don't mention an overcoat, so who knows.

I was also thinking of CSUSA's 10k kits as being "upgrade" but they don't use the term.

If they add anything to 24kt gold it is no longer 24kt unless they add less than .1% 24kt gold is 24 of 24 parts gold 0 of 24 parts other metal and must be 99.9% fine (coin terms). The two metals they mention are used to "harden" gold for some jewelry applications.

The rack method of plating produces a more uniform plating across an entire lot of pieces but as near as I tell that's all, I don't think it is inherently "better" It is more labor intensive and hence more costly.

10 karat gold is 10 of 24 parts gold and 14 of 24 parts other metal...gives much better wear than 24kt but is has less intrinsic value and as such would not be considered upgrade.

 

[ed4copies]

Smitty,

Long ago I believed the word "Germany" meant a country in Europe. Pen manufacturers (in China and Taiwan) have since convinced me it means NOTHING on a pen nib.

So, when they SAY 24kt, I would expect it to have the same "binding force" as "Germany" had.

Later they will explain it was YOUR misinterpretation, not their dishonesty.

 

[Smitty37]

Rack Plating

At least one place in the PSI catalog it says "All our 24kt gold components are created with "premium rack plating" (page 7 description of the 24kt gold slimline pro) and sealed with epoxy for lasting elegance." so it is highly unlikely that Berea is the only pens made that way

 

[Smitty37]

subject to FTC rules

Smitty,

Long ago I believed the word "Germany" meant a country in Europe. Pen manufacturers (in China and Taiwan) have since convinced me it means NOTHING on a pen nib.

So, when they SAY 24kt, I would expect it to have the same "binding force" as "Germany" had.

Later they will explain it was YOUR misinterpretation, not their dishonesty.

I'm not exactly sure if our FTC rules are binding on international sellers. Usually the sale takes place FOB sellers site so the sale is under their laws. Maybe we, as importers, are obligated to make sure they meet FTC requirements. If so, most of us are probably not fulfilling our obligation.

 

[ldb2000]

Upgrade Gold is more correctly known as Hardened Gold . It is still considered 24k Gold but they do use cobalt in solution with 99.7% to 99.9% Gold . The colbalt reacts with the gold to harden the structure of the gold .
10k , 14k , 18k and 22k , are all alloys containing amounts of Silver and Copper . These alloys , while harder then Soft Gold are still very soft and when plated still require an overcoat to increse the durability of the plating .

 

[ldb2000]

EU laws are stricter then our FTC laws and only 18K or better is considered Gold plated and can be sold as such .

 

[ed4copies]

I don't doubt anyone's knowledge, so please don't consider my comments argumentative.

I just don't BELIEVE some of the sources.

CSUSA steadfastly defended "Germany" until we produced pictures of nibs made in China with "Germany" proudly displayed. I don't think CSUSA KNEW they were being "hoodwinked".

So, I feel the same about 24kt--alloys are added to "improve" it, but no need to mention that, even though the jewelry trade would see it as "unethical" to advertise as 24kt. This is not the jewelry trade.