IRS Income Tax Return

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As far as you expecting that from an IRS employee. Remember, we have to pay taxes too. I'm not going to get into a debate of whether a flat or national tax would work. As I said before, I don't have anything to do with the tax laws, no one in the IRS does. I'll tell you who you can blame. It's Congress. We have to collect, but Congress creates the tax laws. The IRS gets no leeway, even when the tax legislation is passed in mid-December (which tends to happen yearly). Also, it could be worse.

I will give some examples. A flat tax of 20% would hurt the poor more than the rich. A national sales tax would hurt the poor even more, because they really don't have any disposable income.

Think about it for a while. I've had this same argument with my father-in-law and the figures just don't add up.

Kol Tov,
 
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Sorry Jeff but I have to disagree. You are throwing out a number of 20% for a flat tax without consideration that even the poor will have more money to spend because they would not have an income tax taken from their paychecks.

Besides all the loopholes in the tax code would be eliminated.
 
Originally posted by ericw95
<br />Sorry Jeff but I have to disagree. You are throwing out a number of 20% for a flat tax without consideration that even the poor will have more money to spend because they would not have an income tax taken from their paychecks.

Besides all the loopholes in the tax code would be eliminated.
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Eric, you would be dead wrong. First, only the federal tax would be different. Each state and city is still free to tax. Last time I checked, I was taxed at the same rate for city and state regardless if I made 20k a year, 40k a year, or more. Second, poor people pay little to no federal tax anyway. In fact, i would put the number at far less than 20%. So, if you started adding 20% to everything, then the poor would be worse off. Heck, not just the poor as defined by the govt, but the people or families making less than say 60k or year or possibly even more.

Also, in my area, taxes on a gallon of gas run roughly .60 a gallon, which is a heck of a lot more than a flat 20%. why, because of state and local. What do you think would happen if the feds reduced that tax on a gallon? The state and local lawmakers would swoop in and take that $$ without us ever seeing a cent in price reduction. Why? They see it as money that we've been paying, so they an benefit from the availability of the $$.

If people really wanted their taxes to mean something, then we've got to push our lawmakers to plug loopholes they give their lobbiests' corporations, and we've got to make them stop spending foolishly. Vote them out often until they get the message.
 
I love debates like this! If all of the lurkers posted their thoughts, we'd probably have 437 different solutions for the issue of taxation. Fortunately, that would let ever member of the House of Representatives vote for a different bill.

The issue of taxation is really not so much about the revenue side as it is about the spending side. Even with our relatively high taxes, we still have a deficit. That translates into we the people asking our government to spend money that we are not ready to contribute. Each of us will argue with some part of the spending and defend other parts. There really isn't a plurality on most of the spending issues, just a series of compromises.

Tree huggers think big business should carry more of the burden since polution and destruction is viewed as being caused by big business. The poor want to tax the rich, saying that their fortunes are made from the sweat of the less fortunate. Republicans want Democrats to pay. Liberals want conservatives to pay. Nationalists want to stop foreign aid. From every home, a self-indulgent cry is issued. "Save MY programs and cut the OTHER GUY'S programs...and give me my tax money back."

If it were really as simple as "just tax everyone the same percentage", don't you think some Presidential candidate would do this? And if it were thought to be workable, wouldn't that make a Congressman or Senator re-electable for life?

As for the "progressive" tax rates, that is a misnomer. Our tax rates are progressive within very specific ranges of income....TAXABLE income. And that's another complaint. Two taxpayers earn the same amount of income from the same job. One takes out a loan for a mortgage, the other opts to rent. The mortgage owner gets to reduce his taxable income for interest and property taxes. The renter gets no break. Some see this as the rich getting richer through ownership, albeit subsidized, of real property that appreciates. Should the government subsidize one taxpayer's investment?

Over the next 2-1/2 months there will be thousands of articles written on this subject. Read, digest and think about them, trying not to let your bias cloud your intellect. Reflect on the "other guy's" side of the issues. There IS an answer out there, but it does not lie in any one person's view. It will come through a series of reasonable discussions and compromises by by representatives of all walks of life. At least that's the way it is suppose to work in a representative-based government.

Tax Freedom Day is May 11 this year. Until then, you are working to pay your municipal and Federal taxes.
 
Originally posted by ericw95
<br />.......the poor will have more money to spend because they would not have an income tax taken from their paychecks.

Besides all the loopholes in the tax code would be eliminated.
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Eric,

This would not be true. As a general rule, the poor pay little to no federal income taxes. Numbers provided by the IRS show that the top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of federal income taxes.

Looking at an example, because of the standard deduction, a married couple making less than $17,000 would pay no taxes. That same couple making $32,000 would pay $1500 in taxes (assuming no deductions for state or local taxes). Assuming that this couple would need to spend most of their $32000 to live, even a 10% national sales tax would cost this couple significantly more than the current system.

jeff
 
Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />I love debates like this! If all of the lurkers posted their thoughts, we'd probably have 437 different solutions for the issue of taxation. Fortunately, that would let ever member of the House of Representatives vote for a different bill.

The issue of taxation is really not so much about the revenue side as it is about the spending side. Even with our relatively high taxes, we still have a deficit. That translates into we the people asking our government to spend money that we are not ready to contribute. Each of us will argue with some part of the spending and defend other parts. There really isn't a plurality on most of the spending issues, just a series of compromises.

Tree huggers think big business should carry more of the burden since polution and destruction is viewed as being caused by big business. The poor want to tax the rich, saying that their fortunes are made from the sweat of the less fortunate. Republicans want Democrats to pay. Liberals want conservatives to pay. Nationalists want to stop foreign aid. From every home, a self-indulgent cry is issued. "Save MY programs and cut the OTHER GUY'S programs...and give me my tax money back."

If it were really as simple as "just tax everyone the same percentage", don't you think some Presidential candidate would do this? And if it were thought to be workable, wouldn't that make a Congressman or Senator re-electable for life?

As for the "progressive" tax rates, that is a misnomer. Our tax rates are progressive within very specific ranges of income....TAXABLE income. And that's another complaint. Two taxpayers earn the same amount of income from the same job. One takes out a loan for a mortgage, the other opts to rent. The mortgage owner gets to reduce his taxable income for interest and property taxes. The renter gets no break. Some see this as the rich getting richer through ownership, albeit subsidized, of real property that appreciates. Should the government subsidize one taxpayer's investment?

Over the next 2-1/2 months there will be thousands of articles written on this subject. Read, digest and think about them, trying not to let your bias cloud your intellect. Reflect on the "other guy's" side of the issues. There IS an answer out there, but it does not lie in any one person's view. It will come through a series of reasonable discussions and compromises by by representatives of all walks of life. At least that's the way it is suppose to work in a representative-based government.

Tax Freedom Day is May 11 this year. Until then, you are working to pay your municipal and Federal taxes.
Click to expand...

Absolutely right.

One more thing to consider, the federal government considers you "the rich" if you own a house, even a small one.

One way to keep our spending down would be term limits for our congressman and senators. Think of any career politician and you'll see what I mean.

John Adams (1735 - 1826)
"In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress."
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jckossoy
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219 Posts

Member Since:
Feb 09 2004

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Posted - Feb 03 2007 : 10:54:53 PM US Eastern Time
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As far as you expecting that from an IRS employee. Remember, we have to pay taxes too. I'm not going to get into a debate of whether a flat or national tax would work. As I said before, I don't have anything to do with the tax laws, no one in the IRS does. I'll tell you who you can blame. It's Congress. We have to collect, but Congress creates the tax laws. The IRS gets no leeway, even when the tax legislation is passed in mid-December (which tends to happen yearly). Also, it could be worse.

I will give some examples. A flat tax of 20% would hurt the poor more than the rich. A national sales tax would hurt the poor even more, because they really don't have any disposable income.

Think about it for a while. I've had this same argument with my father-in-law and the figures just don't add up.

Kol Tov,


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Jeff (Yaakov) in woody Columbia, MD

Everything must be done with joy. Even remorse can be with joy.
--------------------
Sometimes it happens that you set out to do something with the best of intentions -and you end up with what appears the opposite.

Know with absolute certainty -because this is a tradition of our sages -that if your true intent is good, then only good can come out of it. Perhaps not the good you intended -or care for -but good nevertheless.

quotes from the Lubavitcher Rebbe.


I gotta give you credit for admitting you work for the IRS. The same agency that gives out wrong information 87% of the time and then penalizes the poor slob dumb enough to believe it. There is another workable wayto collect taxes. Please people read the book! All the concerns Jeff (the tax man) has are addressed there. Congressman John Linder Co wrote the book. It will work and it is time to get the dreaded April 15th off our backs. I cannot explain it all here. You have to read the book. The poor are as well or better considered under this plan. NO one understands the present tax laws. NOT EVEN THE IRS!!! The Fair Tax is not a flat tax. Ken, I challenge you to read the book and explain to me how this plan will not work. All the major book stores have copies at around $10.00 or so. An arguement is meaningless if you stand in ignorance. Like I keep saying Read The Book!
 
jckossoy
Member



USA
219 Posts

Member Since:
Feb 09 2004

My Photos
Posted - Feb 03 2007 : 10:54:53 PM US Eastern Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as you expecting that from an IRS employee. Remember, we have to pay taxes too. I'm not going to get into a debate of whether a flat or national tax would work. As I said before, I don't have anything to do with the tax laws, no one in the IRS does. I'll tell you who you can blame. It's Congress. We have to collect, but Congress creates the tax laws. The IRS gets no leeway, even when the tax legislation is passed in mid-December (which tends to happen yearly). Also, it could be worse.

I will give some examples. A flat tax of 20% would hurt the poor more than the rich. A national sales tax would hurt the poor even more, because they really don't have any disposable income.

Think about it for a while. I've had this same argument with my father-in-law and the figures just don't add up.

Kol Tov,


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff (Yaakov) in woody Columbia, MD

Everything must be done with joy. Even remorse can be with joy.
--------------------
Sometimes it happens that you set out to do something with the best of intentions -and you end up with what appears the opposite.

Know with absolute certainty -because this is a tradition of our sages -that if your true intent is good, then only good can come out of it. Perhaps not the good you intended -or care for -but good nevertheless.

quotes from the Lubavitcher Rebbe.


I gotta give you credit for admitting you work for the IRS. The same agency that gives out wrong information 87% of the time and then penalizes the poor slob dumb enough to believe it. There is another workable wayto collect taxes. Please people read the book! All the concerns Jeff (the tax man) has are addressed there. Congressman John Linder Co wrote the book. It will work and it is time to get the dreaded April 15th off our backs. I cannot explain it all here. You have to read the book. The poor are as well or better considered under this plan. NO one understands the present tax laws. NOT EVEN THE IRS!!! The Fair Tax is not a flat tax. Ken, I challenge you to read the book and explain to me how this plan will not work. All the major book stores have copies at around $10.00 or so. An arguement is meaningless if you stand in ignorance. Like I keep saying Read The Book!
 
One, let get the facts straight. The IRS does not give 87% misinformation, we give 95% accurate information. Remember, all the IRS does is collect the taxes, we don't get to keep it. It all goes to the Treasury. As has been pointed out several times, taxes pay for alot of the things we all take for granted. No taxes, no military, no FEMA, no education programs, and this is just a few. There is no argument that the current tax code is complex. Some of the laws date back to the beginning of the agency. The programming for the tax code is more complex than the code that launches the Space Shuttle. And we have it ready to go January 1 every year.

Think about it for a while.

Kol Tov,
 
I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT FOR 50 YRS. Why don't you spend $10.00 and a couple hours and read the book. 95% IS NOT TRUE. 13% IS. I know you are used to telling people where to get off. It won't work here. The IRS is so out of touch with reality. The days of destroying lives to the point of suicide in some cases may be coming to an end. The Fair Tax will easily fund the government and all the pork barrel projects as well. Millions of hours are spent annually to wade through the mindless morass referred to as a tax code. Don't misunderstand. I am not upset with you. We are fellow turners and I would prefer to remain non antagonistic. Changing thigs will not remove you from work. If you would simply take a look at the Fair Tax Plan You could at least state an objection to a particular point. Think about it.
 
Update (and to contrast the "IRS SUCKS" post)

Refund received last month. Paid off the lathe and still have a couple grand tucked away [8D]...actually much less now since I went buying (tools and wood) again [B)]

I like it much better this way than having to scrounge some to pay them. As I said (and mentioned by some), not the best way to save but works for me.
 
Man is best advised to KNOW YOURSELF. IF this is the method of saving that works best for you, USE it.

I do not want to engage in any "argument" over taxation. I will say the IRS said I owed them over $300,000 many years ago. They issued over 100 levies and liens. About 18 years of arguing, with several different local agents, engaging and paying 3 different attorneys, losing banking relationships, finally going to "IRS court", where it was determined that we were a "textbook case" of what could go wrong. We paid the roughly $3,000 we owed and got a full release letter.

Meanwhile I watched a local cop who owned a bar get "worked up" enough over his IRS troubles that he had a heart attack and died. Local agents are paid to ENFORCE, not attempt to be ACCURATE. This is, IMO, where the injustice lies.

I believe most of the agents ARE good people, their JOB DESCRIPTION is the problem.

FWIW.

I learned to LIVE WITH life's little challenges.
 
Just remember, based on legislation a year or so ago, the IRS has contracted with collection agencies to collect deliquent taxes. People complained that we are bad, bbut these guys are truly ruthless. There is pending legislation to cancel this, as it could be considered a Privacy Act violation (Congress passed this not the IRS, we have to obey the laws, too).

Kol Tov,
 
Originally posted by jckossoy
<br />Just remember, based on legislation a year or so ago, the IRS has contracted with collection agencies to collect deliquent taxes. People complained that we are bad, bbut these guys are truly ruthless. There is pending legislation to cancel this, as it could be considered a Privacy Act violation (Congress passed this not the IRS, we have to obey the laws, too).

Kol Tov,
Click to expand...


Uoy got that right, these people only get paid on what they collect. So whose side do you think thet are on?
 
You want someone on YOUR side, go to the ADVOCATE. Doesn't that sound like someone to HELP YOU???

They are trained and paid by the IRS. THEY don't know the code that DEFENDS taxpayers, as many attorneys don't either.

Thank God for the internet, learn to read the tax code and cite it to them, it won't SOLVE the problem, but it DOES get IRS off your back, to move on to an EASIER target.
 
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