IAP Classifieds, Marketing, Advertising

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
jeff

jeff

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
9,003
Location
Westlake, OH, USA.
Hello All,

I've heard from several members lately who are concerned about the way we handle marketing, advertising, and the classifieds at penturners.org. The comments included:

"Some people are using the IAP as their personal sales site"
"There are too many posts related to selling things"
"Every other post seems to be about buying or selling something"
"When I ask a question, someone tries to sell me something"
"Some people come to the IAP just to sell to us and make money"

I went back over a few weeks and did a quick look at posts. Around 35% of the posts were either classified ads, responses to those, or some other flavor of buying or selling.

So, it's true that a lot of our traffic is related to buying and selling, but I don't know if that's a real problem or not. A good deal of the fun of a pursuit like pen making is buying stuff. I know that I just like to stand back and look at my stash of stuff, and there always seems to be room for more! I think if we like accumulating stuff, and we want access to the really nice things that the mainstream suppliers don't offer, we need to tolerate some amount of this, but maybe we have crossed some line.

Perhaps the volume of buy/sell posts has gotten to the point where it's annoying and we need to change the way we do things. I don't think we all want to buy less, and I am positive that the sellers don't want to sell less, but maybe we need to somehow change the way we handle it here. There might be a better way to give us all the same access to the goodies, let the sellers continue to offer us good stuff, but better integrate all that with the primary purpose of the site: "... to give penturners a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of penturning."

I would like to hear your opinion. Is this a problem, and if so, what do we do about it? Thanks for you time! (As always, if you prefer not to post here, email me!)

PS: I hate to have to mention this, but please let's not take this topic into the weeds. Focus on the problem and solutions. If you really want to vent about something, email me!!
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
There is a lot of buying and selling, but I like that. There seems to be less discussion of how to than there is in the past, but there still is a lot to learn from idle thread watching. What I find irritating is when the line gets crossed and I can't tell if someone is providing good advice or promoting their own self interest. That does happen, but not all that often. Just as everywhere else, I have a couple of people on my 'do not trust' list. But I have a lot of people here on my 'pretty trustworthy' list. And I learn every day.
 
I buy too much and don't sell enough...probably a common problem in this group;). I have no problem with the volume of classifieds, however would suggest that the posts, like they do for the Members in Need forum, not post in the "Recent Posts" section. If I want to go shopping, I can go to the buy/sell/swap area and look at what is available or recently posted there, however, I don't need to know each time I log in, that Joe wants to buy X from Bob or that Jim's package arrived safely. This would control a large part of the visible transactions and allow those who are not interested in buying to avoid the adverts.

ching ching $0.02 (now worth less than a pence, I believe)
 
Originally posted by marcruby

There is a lot of buying and selling, but I like that. There seems to be less discussion of how to than there is in the past, but there still is a lot to learn from idle thread watching. What I find irritating is when the line gets crossed and I can't tell if someone is providing good advice or promoting their own self interest. That does happen, but not all that often. Just as everywhere else, I have a couple of people on my 'do not trust' list. But I have a lot of people here on my 'pretty trustworthy' list. And I learn every day.

I have seen cases where the accusation of 'marketing' was applied in one case, and not in another, based on who was the object. What good is any practice if it isn't applied to everyone equally? I don't mind someone posting that they have something I want when I'm asking about it, but I do mind a thread being coopted and closed by fiat.
Click to expand...
 
I would love it if there was a way to post an ad to classifieds and not have all the "I want to buy XXX" in the post, or the "I received mine today and they are gorgeous" in the thread. And even more so, I don't want to see it in the email sent out. I subscribe to the classifieds so I can see the stuff coming up for sale but it gets lost in all the "stuff" after the posting.

GK
 
i feel i contribute to that. Someone recently asked if there was someone on here selling bog oak blanks and i said i would try and get some. Next thing i know a few more people asked. I was kinda worried that someone would think i'm only out to make money but i offered to exchange for kits and other blanks [:I]
 
Originally posted by GoodTurns

I buy too much and don't sell enough...probably a common problem in this group;). I have no problem with the volume of classifieds, however would suggest that the posts, like they do for the Members in Need forum, not post in the "Recent Posts" section. If I want to go shopping, I can go to the buy/sell/swap area and look at what is available or recently posted there, however, I don't need to know each time I log in, that Joe wants to buy X from Bob or that Jim's package arrived safely. This would control a large part of the visible transactions and allow those who are not interested in buying to avoid the adverts.

ching ching $0.02 (now worth less than a pence, I believe)
Click to expand...

There's a need for a public record of who bought what, otherwise sellers receive a backlash of 'ugly' emails when something gets double-sold. The only way to avoid that is to constantly monitor your listing for purchases and update immediately, which is pretty tough to do.

I completely agree, though, that it's silly for a seller to respond to every customer's post when a PM will work just fine. There are ways for a seller to post update information without bumping their own ads to the top, and every extra post adds to the bandwidth usage of the site. I was guilty of that before I knew the strain that it puts on the server, and usually my listings are pretty Spartan with very few posts from me aside from one of the recent ones where Johnnie wouldn't leave me alone. [}:)]:D

The only time I can think of that a seller needs to respond to a post (with another post) is when it's in question form, and the answer might be beneficial for everyone to know. For example, someone asked in my most recent listing, "What are the Bruschetta blanks?" I responded publicly so I wouldn't have to answer the same question multiple times.
 
Jeff,
I don't see it as a problem. As always if you do not want to see the buy and sell posts don't view them. I on the other hand like looking what the members have up for sale. And once in a while i can even afford some of the stuff and get to buy. As you say alot of what gets sold here is not offered by the mainstream suppliers. Had it not been for Johnnycnc I would still be turning on a mandrel. My vote is don't change a thing.
 
I agree with most of the comments the 'received mine' and 'I'll take xx of whatever' does get overwhelming in the posts. When I'm in a shopping mood, I come here and see what is being offered. trading/selling/buying between members helps us get to know one another, build friendships, and expand our skill set.
 
Thats why there's a classified section.. if you don't to read it, no one is forcing you...
I like them.. just browsing the ads often gives me inspiration.

Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it. [^]
 
I will speak only for my self...BUT
I think most regulars on the forum appreciate the "buy/sell" opportunities the forum offers. So, I would vote to keep it a part of the forum. I have not really seen any postings that I considered abuse where someone was unfairly pushing their own products. I have seen salesmanship at work as would be expected if you are offering to sell something.
I do agree we could probably eliminate the "I got Mine" type of responses although I have been guilty of that myself. If each seller could track what has been sold and let the group know quickly that would be good. Otherwise, seeing what has been bought by others sure saves a lot of time in ordering. If we elimate the "I want x,y,z" then we have to have a way to know what is still available. Of course if I'm not interested in buying or selling, I don't have to read those threads at all.
With 5400+ members and growing,a new look at what changes that might require is wise. Shows we have a wise leader!:D
 
I think the sellers should limit their posts to the classified forums already on the site. Don't try to sell products in the other forums. I don't have a problem with individuals trying to sell a product. That's what we call free enterprise in the United States. Without it our economy is in the dumper.
 
When Linda and I came to IAP we had no intention of selling or anything other than learn and become friends with some wonderful people. With IAP, at least with us, it was a little different as far as selling. It was not about making money but more about being able to use the buying force of IAP members so that we are all able to get a product much cheaper. Novus is a good example of that. We were selling 8oz bottles for what our local Rockler sold a 2oz bottle. Kind of like a group buy but for a small percentage we will front the investment and stock the product. Yes there are some people that only come to IAP to sell, but they provide a service that I think is overlooked.

Think of it this way....
If there were no products available through IAP where would your sources be for your addiction? For many of us it would be Rockler and WoodCraft as well as a couple of the bigger well know pen importers. Not many on here would know of Nolan and would be buying crap off of eBay or forking out $17 a pound for burl chunks at Rockler. With the exception of the super rare stuff your price and quality is far superior. How many on here would be playing with alt. ivory or vintage Bakelite? Not everyone has the equipment to make a Cancun blank like Eugene, so without him offering his creations we would never get to turn something like that. The same can be said for Karl's wild blanks. There are many more fine examples of what we would miss out on if products were not offered through here. If you cut out the marketing on IAP then what is next, group buys?

It is not a perfect world and you will never be able to please everyone. I do not believe there is a perfect answer to this. Personally I block out post as easy as I do our daughter's chatter box. :D I like to look through what is offered. I like to build up a little stash so that I can make a special order. The only thing that I can think of that would be a reasonable compromise would be to offer a control that would allow a member to turn on or off the classified section of the forum. With that all sales, offer of sale, suggestion of sells or anything else that falls into this would be restricted to the classified sections of the forum. By doing it this way you as a member have control. It is kind of like the Sunday paper. You don't have to look at the supplements to read the sports section, but it is there if you so desire.

Mike
 
Being a seller, I really appreciate the way IAP handles it. I would like to see ALL classified posts left off the main board or recent posts. There is no reason other folks need to read our wheeling and dealing. If they want to read about it, then they can in the classifieds under the appropiate forum. I also like to see the wide variety of stuff we can buy here, I like the one stop shop site. I can pretty much buy anything I want here and know who I am buying it from and feel comfortable doing business with them.
 
while I agree with in large part, I think the genesis of this thread is coming from perceived marketing outside of the classifieds sections,.

I've seen many threads such as "what do you do for sharpening" than can have some marketing/selling type opinions in them. In some others like the BOW threads that frequently pop up, Nolan and other vender-members are mentioned or mention that they have stock themselves. That is marketing or selling in either form. I've picked up the undercurrent that some members have problems with other specific members, but not others when they are mentioned.

Also I see a problem with getting rid of the "Got my stuff, looks great" posts. How are we supposed to figure out if a vendor is good? Those posts provide information on the reliability and quality of the vendor. Would people have been willing to send nearly $6000 to me (one person over $400 by himself) if I had not posted in threads where I bought something saying "got it" which tells people that I fulfilled my part of the deal also.

I don't see this as a problem and if it were a problem I don't see an aimicable solution that would not alienate members.
 
Jeff,

Put me in the don't change anything camp. Is there alot of selling here? Sure - I've bought only a little, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy more from the sellers here if I could.

The sellers that are on here - well they also tend to be the higher volume posters, thus among the most helpful even when they aren't selling. I know that I continue to "live by" this site for my turning habit. Even in the SOYP - where "a photos worth a 1000 words", alot of the time you'll see "blank from xyz" which is also a good thing.

So far this is by far my #1 destination on the web - I'd hate to see that change. So a little tweaking about being sure things are in the right groups may be necessary, but overall I'd hate to see things more locked down.
 
Well,,,,

I personnaly think that all those sellers here are a BIG BIG BIG problem.......

Too many great deal and not enough money to get them all.:D:D

Seriously, i love coming in here and go to the classified. I think everyone here have experience the frustration of missing a great deal on blanks because they where all gone. Always someone getting rid of some kits at a give away price, all those nice and exclusive casting and tools that people make, Paul vise is the best exemple. Plus most of those vendor are part of the familly so no rip off, always honest and willing to give you more than your money's worth.

Yes,,,, a BIG problem....well at least for my wife.[:eek:)]

Alfred
 
I buy and sell and go to the classifieds first. My shortcut on my desktop is set to forums, so I bypass home and go straight to where I want to be. This way, I read only what I want and I expect two way communication in the classifieds. Keep the posting as it is. I have seen items sell with seconds between replies and the time posting ends any doubt as to who is first. Would the annoying traffic be easier to avoid if all forums was the entrance, and as you enter,pick the direction you want to go? I like it as it is.
 
bien dit, Alfred (and thanks for pulling that out of 10th grade!:D)

the vast majority of our vendors (and yes, we do think of them as "ours") provide above grade product to this community, and many of us are better for it, yet poorer at the same time[;)) I cannot imagine a group waiting months for a single item and cheering to be on the list</u> for a PHDVise (and I think he posts about 2x a month when he comes out, covered in metal shavings, to name his next child's parent) and yes, I'm on that list and have picked a special place to raise my child) I "sell" from time to time (when I cannot walk through the room in front of the shop) and love to do trades for whatever someone else wants to get rid of ****light just came on, watch the swaps and trades forum![8D]

I stick by my initial post, the re-posts to an offering should not be in the main window recent posts scroll box. I am on the computer most of the day and when that window refreshes, I check it out, hoping for some bit of information or stray fire from ED CAV and Co...only to find out that Jimmy's real happy with Ed'd delivery! Jimmy's post should</u> be in the Sales Forum, but not in the "Breaking News" scroll box....
 
I agree with GoodTurns. I visit the classifieds every time I visit to see if there is something I must have. Most times the diamond in the ruff that I am interested in is not even on the recent posts listing. It would be nice to have the posts related to classifieds not in the most recent posts section.
 
Originally posted by GoodTurns


I stick by my initial post, the re-posts to an offering should not be in the main window recent posts scroll box. I am on the computer most of the day and when that window refreshes, I check it out, hoping for some bit of information or stray fire from ED CAV and Co...only to find out that Jimmy's real happy with Ed'd delivery! Jimmy's post should</u> be in the Sales Forum, but not in the "Breaking News" scroll box....
Click to expand...
But I don't think they can puck and choose which posts will show in the "breaking news" from a specific forum. So while you might not like to see that Jimmy got his purchase, I bet you would like to see "Fresh batch of Cocobolo Burl up for grabs". That initial post can be very important.

I don't know that the mods/jeff can make the first post show without all the others following. I think it's either all or nothing for a specific forum. Much like the Members in Need forum. I was disappointed to find that it didn't show in the recent posts (as well as it's not on the drop down menu under "forums". Someone may want to fix that). I didn't know about the raffle for Johnny until I saw a post in Casual Conversations about it.
 
thank you Mike...[:I] them's the words I was looking for...it's like being in the shop, I know it's here, just can't find it! Initial post in the "Current Posts" , replies out.
 
Thirty-five percent of the posts relating to buying and selling is a bit much. I don't think we need to change much other than a couple of behaviors.

First, posts like "Harry, I got my package. Thanks!" are of no value to the forum as a whole. Neither are posts like "Beatrice, your total is $796.20." Those communications can be handled through the forum email. In the new forum (when it is launched), we will have real "private messaging" which will also easily accommodate these posts.

Second, in terms of posts like "The blanks look great!", perhaps we buyers could post a photo of a completed project and acknowledge the source. I think thoses posts would add more value than "The wood looks better in person."

I'm not unhappy with things the way they are, but we could tighten it up just a little.
 
Originally posted by Russianwolf

Also I see a problem with getting rid of the "Got my stuff, looks great" posts. How are we supposed to figure out if a vendor is good? Those posts provide information on the reliability and quality of the vendor. Would people have been willing to send nearly $6000 to me (one person over $400 by himself) if I had not posted in threads where I bought something saying "got it" which tells people that I fulfilled my part of the deal also.

I don't see this as a problem and if it were a problem I don't see an aimicable solution that would not alienate members.
Click to expand...

This is an excellent point. I think things are ok the way they are. I believe that most of us sell to each other as "family" and do so at pretty low cost. However, as is pointed out above we are only going to learn which members are good to deal with and those that there are issues (which we should at least be aware of so that we can make informed decisions, when we decide who we want to send money to) if we can see posts such as these. Of course, I do tend to be a little conservative about those I let get their hands in my pockets!
If there are people who come here "only" to sell, or people who sell "only" to make a huge profit then I also believe that most of our members are smart enough to figure out for themselves -given the current system- where the better deals are and which deals are simply rip offs. If someone wants to make a purchase from anyone of these individuals that is their choice to make ... and their money to spend. On the other hand, I want to be able to see who is selling what as soon as it is posted and who has bougth what *leave it in the active topics because when I have a spare minute at work I can't always come into the classifieds and go through every topic*. As another member stated sometimes items sell almost within seconds of their being posted. I would rather not waste mine, nor the sellers time, contacting them when the item they listed has been sold for 2 hours or even more.

Just my 2 cents....

Mrs.
 
I like the ads. There is lots of neat stuff available out there and IAP is about the only convenient way to hear about it?? What I don't like is all of the "personal" posts that go along with the ad. Messages like:

email sent
thanks
package received
what is your PP address
shipped yesterday
etc.

don't need to be taking up my time or IAP bandwidth. IMO, all of that type of stuff should be accomplished through email channels off forum between the buyer and seller. I don't see any need for it to be on the forum.

I would like the see the ads locked after they are posted so that all individual business between the buyer and seller is directed to off forum email.
 
It seems to me, the people who complain about the extra posts in the classified are the people who subscribe to that forum. They are the ones that get an email sent to them whenever someone posts something under that category. Their goal is to know asap when a new item is listed but are complaining about the chatter that follows. Sounds to me like a case of 'you can't have your cake and eat it too'.

Rather than subscribing, one solution is to swing by and visit the active topics here at IAP more often. [:p] This way, you won't get emails about stuff you're not interested in. Why do people want to make things more complicated than they really are? ;):)
 
I like things as they exist at the moment. I can go to the classified section if I am looking for something. I like reading that what someone is selling is nice, that they are quick to respond and that they deliver in a timely manner. Is something pops up in another thread I can either read it or skip it. I like this site for the most part, but sometimes find it difficult that people get so upset and vent, in what appears to be an inappropriate manner. Selling and buying things seem to upset some people, but I agree with both Mikes above and don't really want to see major changes to the site in this regards.
 
I guess I'm one of those who do see a bit of a problem. I think there are some problems popping up and it isn’t as easy to solve as “If you don’t want to read the ads, stay away from the classifieds†I think there is some fairly aggressive marketing going on and it’s spilling out into the other forums so you see it whether you want to or not.

Within the past few weeks there have been a few very volatile threads that had to be shut down and guess what was at the root of all of them… selling, how much was being charged and how items were being marketed and there were some pretty strong opinions on both sides. Last month a moderator had to put out a plea for members to stop disrupting people selling things as it seemed that several members thought the sellers were a bit excessive in their prices. I even remember seeing the term “gouging†mentioned a few times.

So while there is not a meltdown, obviously all is not well in Mayberry!

Linda of MLKWoodWorking made some good observations that I would like to add to. I am not picking on anyone; I’m just using blanks as an example since so many are being sold making them an easy target! :)

Some members are indeed selling things at some pretty darn good prices, better than can be found anywhere else but we also have those who unfortunately aren’t!

I think I see where some people were coming from recently when they made comments in advertising threads. Some see fellow members almost as family and try to watch their brothers back. It seems like only yesterday that $4 or $5 was a lot for a really nice stabilized blank or $7 to $10 was the upper limits for a killer blank and $20 for the very unique labor intensive hand crafted blanks. And many of the “outside†vendors selling blanks still charge roughly those same prices but lately $15, $20, $25 and up is quite common for blanks around here. What’s going on? Could it be because of a captive audience? Are the prices based on the “rarity†of the item? If they are so rare, why are they always available? I’ve seen some real “feeding frenzies†and couldn’t understand why.

Sorta reminds me of the gas situation in a way. In February I paid $3.10 for diesel, today I paid $4.70. Is fuel really worth $1.60 more a gallon in four months or are we being taken advantage of?

Keep in mind, this is just an opinion and is not directed towards anyone.
 
I don't have a clue why the present system is a problem? This is a site about everything to do with penturning or not, i.e., casual conversations. Can someone please explain why it is a problem to post that an item has been received and that it looks great?

Is this complaining for complaining sake?
 
I am also on the "leave it the way it is" side. If I don't like what I see, I don't read the post/for sale listing. The for sale items on this site have allowed me to learn what is "out there" and what blanks etc can be produced by the sellers! The "received my blanks and they are stunning" has shown me that a fellow PENTURNER feels he got a good deal and that the product is good, these would not have been bought if the goods were not priced right. It also gives an indication of service by the seller! Just my opinion.:)
 
I like seeing the classifieds. There are a lot of things offered here that I cannot find elsewhere.

I would like to see a seperate forum for "wanted to buy" so the classifieds are easier to read though.
 
At times I don't mind reading the "classified ads". Sometimes I WANT to. I like others, wish I could buy more! I know without a lot of the mentioned type posts, my 'knowledge' would be much less than the low level it is now.
I don't think the buying/selling is much of a problem for me.
I wonder if there might be some way to mark or better mark a thread as an offer to sell. There may be - I am pretty new here and just may not know.
Thnk you to all who make this site the wealth of information that it is!
 
IMHO I think several had good ideas,

Limit selling and marketing of items to the classified forums (but if some one asks a question and a "vendor" has what is needed to "fix" the problem link the vendor's post in the classifieds and don't try to sell in the regular forums).

Restrict the classified forums appearing in the recent items to first post only(not sure if this can be done)

Restrict the type of post replying to an item/s for sale to I want xxx send invoice, and received xxx, also any questions about the item/s.

Require the seller to keep the listing up to date at least once a day.

Attempt to get some of the retail vendors active in the classifieds offering specials for IAP members maybe set up a preferred vendor listing (retail vendors who support IAP)
 
Originally posted by rlharding

I don't have a clue why the present system is a problem? This is a site about everything to do with penturning or not, i.e., casual conversations. Can someone please explain why it is a problem to post that an item has been received and that it looks great?

Is this complaining for complaining sake?
Click to expand...

I agree with Ruth.

We have the choice to look or not to look and if someone wants to sell something we have the choice to buy or not to buy.

If we want to cut out all of the "received my item" posts then we should also cut out all the "nice pen, good job" posts in the SOYP forum.
 
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom