I have a ? or 2
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tim self
Member
As Roy put it to me one day. How much does an artist have invested in a painting? The frame is worth more than the painting. Canvas and paint, maybe $10. Why would someone pay $500 or $1000 for a painting. I haven't even brought the "time" he has invested, or would he have just been sitting on his azz if he wasn't painting?
As someone previously mentioned, PERCEIVED value. If you wanna sell a $20 pen, go ahead. Others of us are trying to turn this into a ART medium. Yep, I sit at home on my azz most of the time but when I am turning pens, my time is worth very much.
As someone previously mentioned, PERCEIVED value. If you wanna sell a $20 pen, go ahead. Others of us are trying to turn this into a ART medium. Yep, I sit at home on my azz most of the time but when I am turning pens, my time is worth very much.
pianomanpj
Member
Every time the discussion of value comes up, I hardly ever find mention of a few, important factors.
1. Experience - How can you put a value on that? At the very least, the monetary value of the experience of a turner would be the out of pocket costs for everything that the turner has purchased and produced since day one! Some of the folks here (Ed, raise your hand...) have turned thousands of pens. I've turned less than one hundred. Even if you gave both of us the same materials, you would be VERY unlikely to get two pens of equal quality and craftsmanship. I'm not saying I make junk, as I do the very best work I can do. But I don't have the experience that Ed does, and it will take me thousands of pens to get there. (I'm gaining' on ya, Ed!)
2. R&D - Some of the nicest, custom blanks I've ever seen we made from very inexpensive materials. But the development behind it could only be described as a labor of love. Bruce's circuit board pens are a great example. Sure, the PC boards are cheap (I've sent him some for free!), but the time and material cost isn't. I can't imagine how many tries it took to get it right, and even after that, what the failure rate is. I know some cast blanks, especially snake skin, have HUGE failure rates.
3. History/Name Recognition - Even as subjective as this one is, I still think that pedigree has a value. Would I pay top dollar for a blank from Eagle? Hell, yeah! I wouldn't care if it was made from cork and pipe cleaners, as long as it looked good, the pedigree alone would give me a warm fuzzy!
So that's my two nickel's worth. Yes, two nickels. Even my time is worth something. :wink:
1. Experience - How can you put a value on that? At the very least, the monetary value of the experience of a turner would be the out of pocket costs for everything that the turner has purchased and produced since day one! Some of the folks here (Ed, raise your hand...) have turned thousands of pens. I've turned less than one hundred. Even if you gave both of us the same materials, you would be VERY unlikely to get two pens of equal quality and craftsmanship. I'm not saying I make junk, as I do the very best work I can do. But I don't have the experience that Ed does, and it will take me thousands of pens to get there. (I'm gaining' on ya, Ed!)
2. R&D - Some of the nicest, custom blanks I've ever seen we made from very inexpensive materials. But the development behind it could only be described as a labor of love. Bruce's circuit board pens are a great example. Sure, the PC boards are cheap (I've sent him some for free!), but the time and material cost isn't. I can't imagine how many tries it took to get it right, and even after that, what the failure rate is. I know some cast blanks, especially snake skin, have HUGE failure rates.
3. History/Name Recognition - Even as subjective as this one is, I still think that pedigree has a value. Would I pay top dollar for a blank from Eagle? Hell, yeah! I wouldn't care if it was made from cork and pipe cleaners, as long as it looked good, the pedigree alone would give me a warm fuzzy!
So that's my two nickel's worth. Yes, two nickels. Even my time is worth something. :wink:
traderdon55
Member
The reason Mac started this post was because after I did a bullet pen demo for the local AAW chapter a couple of people started making them with deer antler and undercutting everyone selling them for $20.00. In talking with one of them he stated that he didn't think anyone would pay more than that for any pen. I can do like I started out in the beginning a turn out a quick pen with a friction polish finish and sell it cheap but I would rather spend the time to make a quality product and price it for what it's worth. I guess you have go by a saying I heard a long time ago( I have no problem with those who sell for less,they know what their merchandise is worth). Despite having a few people trying to undercut everyone I plan to continue to share what little I know and I want to thank everyone on IAP for sharing their knowledge because just about everything I know about pen making I learned from everyone here. Don
wdcav1952
Activities Manager Emeritus
This has been a very interesting discussion. I just hope that if DozerMite opens an automobile dealership that I live close to it. I would love to buy a car priced by his philosophy of no obscene profits.
Mac
Member
Wow, Great stuff guys
Ok ,this is my answer to the ? that makes me happy!
YOU cannot in any shape or form make a profit selling a bullet pen with antler for $20 PERIOD.....
your replacement cost for inventory (your buddy can't sell brass that cheap for ever and might even run out.
has anybody bought antler lately, not cheap.
and last but not least inventory cost money (and if running a business ,that is counted as profit ,to pay uncle... )
cost of equipment ,cost of running equipment
I know some of you turn pens for a hobby , but some here want to start a business
I for one think they should know how to price their products .(such as I do and find like items on webb sites and price from there. or use one of you guys pricing formula, and not just say I don't think that would sell for that much,
Oh I almost( fergot ) what if you sell one for $20 at a show and gave your card with it and the following week got call from said person ordering 125 more ,man are you going in the hole and BIGTIME, cause you have a set price for one at $20 and guess what they want a discount on the BIG order. what do you do now? You were already going in the hole before!
ONE MORE THING AND I GOT TO GO (don't run down your prices and by doing so run down
all handmade pens everywhere !!!!!!
thanks
Mac
I'm not gonna brag, BUT, :biggrin::biggrin: Isn't that about what I said very early into this thread. :wink:
chriselle
Member
I make obscene profits on my pens.... but my customers wouldn't be attracted to them if I didn't. This paradox allows me to sleep like a baby.:biggrin:
Carry on.
Carry on.
LabTrnr
Member
Let's not forget the main principle this country was built on, come up with a product that people want and charge all that the market will bear. If some one thinks the price is too high, then they can walk away, no one is forced to buy from you. If you want to give pens away or sell at cost, that's your prerogative, but I for one will continue to sell my pens for as much as the market will bear. I will also not feel bad for whatever profit I can eek out of the sale. The reasoning that profit can be "excessive" is ridicules, if a product is produced and a buyer is willing to pay the asking price for it, the profit margin is irrelevant. Obscene profits are exactly what this country needs to pull out of this down economy but unfortunately there are some that think that making a profit is selfish rather than the main component of the capitalism that made this country great. Just my $10 worth (which includes a good profit on my $.02).
Mac
Member
Any chance getting a price list from you ,so I can stand by my pricing strategy,I might want to go up on mine. I already sale mine higher than anybody in my neck of the woods . There are guys around here selling pens ,as cheap as $10...SERIOUS.and (that) was the reason for my orginial post!
OKLAHOMAN
Member
Chris, I was told once that a kit pen would never sell for $200, then $300, then $400, I'm not saying its a common occurrence but I know that at least one has sold kit pens for over $1,000 (not me) but I have sold 1 for $750 and when you have a $500 and a $750 pen on the table you be amazed at how easy it becomes selling a $200-$300 pen and I also sleep like a baby after a show that I sell them.
knowltoh
Member
Someone wanted to hear from an accountant??
Profit percentage is calculated as:
profit/cost x 100 = pp
in other words, if you use $20 of materials, and sell at $50, then your profit is expressed as:
30/20x100= 66.7?% profit percentage
Accounting 101 session is over. Let me know if you also want gross or net profit rate info also...
HTH/HAND
30/20x100 = 150% profit percentage.
400% is the correct percentage. $80 profit / $20 cost x 100= 400%
Math 101 session is over.
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Greg O'Sherwood
Member
Well done, you caught my formula error. It should be:
20/30x100 = 66.7% profit percentage.
You are calculating margins.:bad:
chriselle
Member
Yep!
Mac, My high end urushi is $800. Then there is the $400~500 range and the bell curve peaks at around $300. The low end of the curve is $120 and it interestingly enough draws the least "interest".
BUT....I am in a market where our prices are considered very reasonable. All of my pens are on permanent display in the showcases at my shop on the main street in a trendy vacation destination.
pianomanpj
Member
I just make obscene pens... :tongue::biggrin:
chriselle
Member
Oh...I have a few of those, too. My wife calls them the "ugly celluloids".