How to add veining and webbing to a cast?

[stephenwjackson]

How do you add veining to PR/tru-stone casts?

In looking at the Tru-Stone blanks from CSUSA and others, some of the ones offered have a beautiful veining, or webbing effect, i.e. turquoise, white web, bianco nero, and especially leopard.
My question is, how does one add that vein effect to the casting? Is there a webbing agent of some kind added to the vein color and then mixed in at the last moment? Any enlightenment from the pros here would be much appreciated. Steve.

 

[NewLondon88]

I think we all wish we knew. :tongue:
Anyone casting resins would like to know, since it is a nice looking technique.

I've wondered if it was some sort of negative effect, where something is
used to repel the color or cause it not to mix in with the rest of the resin.
But I really have no clue.

 

[workinforwood]

I wonder the same thing, especially about the negative effect. Like oil and water, but at the same time it adheres <the webbing that is>. Very odd.

 

[stephenwjackson]

Thank you both, Charlie and Jeff, for your replies. Looks like we've come accross something here that may be somewhat foreign even to all the pros in this forum.
Thirty or so years ago I had a cultured marble company and we were able to recreate a very realistic veining effect on our flat panels by mixing the contrasting vein color with a webbing agent, spraying that on the gel-coat and pouring the background over that. Visually it looked very similar to what we're talking about here. The problem of coarse is that it was only a surface effect, and would be quickly turned away on a lathe.
I have sent e-mails to some of the resin distributors, hoping to get some useful info. Yesterday I spoke with Mike at Alumilite, he's familiar with the look and said he was meeting with some folks this thurs. and may have some answers by the end of the week.
I'll post anything informative that I learn. Thanks again.....Steve

 

[MesquiteMan]

I am working on a concept that may very well accomplish this. I have one part done and just need to time to finish it and turn it to see if it works. When done, I will certainly share the technique if indeed it does as I expect.

 

[NewLondon88]

Thirty or so years ago I had a cultured marble company and we were able to recreate a very realistic veining effect on our flat panels by mixing the contrasting vein color with a webbing agent, spraying that on the gel-coat and pouring the background over that. Visually it looked very similar to what we're talking about here. The problem of coarse is that it was only a surface effect, and would be quickly turned away on a lathe.

Around 30 years ago my dad also had a cultured marble company. Styrene
resin in 55 gallon drums, cobalt, powdered marble, MEK (not even MEKP).
He said he got his veining by mixing the base color till it was ready to pour,
and then drizzling the veining color into the bucket before pouring it into
the RTV molds. He said varying the drizzle changed the veining and it was
somewhat controllable/repeatable. That veining seemed to go all through
the pour, not just surface.

But when I showed him the TruStone blue lapis, he just shrugged his
shoulders and said it was very nice.

I think it's a trade secret they'd kill to keep. :wink:

 

[TellicoTurning]

I don't co any casting, but Somewhere I seem to remember a thread about creating ribbons of polyresin or similar casting materials, then casting the ribbons in the molds... if you could keep the resin flexible and very thin, would that be possible...

 

[NewLondon88]

I don't co any casting, but Somewhere I seem to remember a thread about creating ribbons of polyresin or similar casting materials, then casting the ribbons in the molds... if you could keep the resin flexible and very thin, would that be possible...

I think that would work for 'hard line' colors in the casting. I see lots of blanks
using that technique (I think) and wonder about the process when I see
them.

The webbing is different, though.

I've wondered if they did something to the two different materials to help
keep them from mixing. I wonder if it has to do with materials repelling each
other, perhaps something ionizes one material or the other? A magnetic
charge? I don't know. Something has to stop them from mixing so that
they hold together, yet the specific gravity would have to be the same so
it doesn't fall out of solution or simply gravitate towards the edge of the
mold.

I gots no clue, but it's fascinating.

 

[NewLondon88]

Just for yucks, I picked up a can of Krylon gold webbing spray to try out
if I ever get around to learning how to cast. I sprayed it on some cardboard
and it looks like webbing!

I wonder how they do that coming out of the can. it seems to come out in
clumps and strings.

If I could figure out if it's something in the design of the can and if it is
something I can duplicate, I'd be partway there.

Can't just spray it into the resin, because it isn't resin. So the blank would
have a weak spot anywhere there was gold webbing.

Come to think of it, someone dropped my black w/ gold web pen and it DID
break right along the gold webbing! hmmmmm ...

 

[leehljp]

As an add in - most companies that do this professionally will not share their secrets with you on this - leaving it up to individuals to figure it out for themselves. IF we do it ourselves and one or two does it better than others, then they (the companies) lose sales. This was a hot topic a couple of years ago as many here wanted to get into dyed and stabilized wood. Even now, most professional stabilizing companies will not reveal their method.

I don't like it but I don't blame them either. Just wanted to add this in so that it will be understood that the creative discovery opportunities are open. But if one discovers a method that has already been patented, it will be OK to use it for yourself. However, if yours start looking like one of the professional makers and you start selling it, you might want to protect yourself. :wink:

 

[NewLondon88]

Hank .. we're GUYS! We like (need) to take things apart and see how they
work! It is in our blood, you know this. :biggrin:

Once we figure it out, the mystery is gone, the thrill is past. Then we can
move onto the next copyright violation..:tongue:

Besides, they'd never sue us for copying the look of gold webbed marble.
They'd have to go to court, put their hand on a bible and swear to tell
the whole truth, "so help me God" (the original copyright holder..)

 

[amosfella]

Might want to check the US patent office, or even better, ask them what patent number they make this product under and then look up the patent.

 

[workinforwood]

I still don't see how a can of Krylon webbing would make webs inside a blank, but I do know that if it could, the alumilite would chemically bond itself to the krylon making it a solid turnable substance. If you make a mold, lets just say an egg mold. You paint inside the mold and let the paint dry. Pour alumilite into the mold and the paint will chemically bond to alumilite right off the mold, thus giving you not only a molded part, but a painted molded part.

 

[NewLondon88]

I still don't see how a can of Krylon webbing would make webs inside a blank,

By spraying it as you pour the resin into the mold. Biggest problem would
be getting the spray pattern small enough.

Or, you could spray the top of the resin in the mixing container. The pour
would take the resin from the top and just underneath it. This would mix
it in, but probably wouldn't keep the webbing look. I know you can do
veining this way, but maybe not with PR resin. I just don't know.

but I do know that if it could, the alumilite would chemically bond itself to the krylon making it a solid turnable substance. If you make a mold, lets just say an egg mold. You paint inside the mold and let the paint dry. Pour alumilite into the mold and the paint will chemically bond to alumilite right off the mold, thus giving you not only a molded part, but a painted molded part.

That would work for surface veining and webbing, too. (I think) So does
the paint become part of the resin this way? Is there a certain % you can
go up to?

I've seen pics of when they do webbing or veining in larger casts (countertops) they might use a thicker resin mix, more like cookie dough
consistency.
They scoop it off a trowel and leave voids, then pour the veining color
over it, which fills in the voids. Then again, they don't need to worry about
anything but surface veining.

Ah well.. at this point it's just a mind experiment.

 

[elwoodblues]

I know it wouldn't look the same, but I wonder how casting some dyed batting/cotton fibers would look. I suspect you would get a similar look. When I get some time, I might just give it a try.

 

[workinforwood]

I don't know how thick paint can be, I'm betting just a regular coat of paint, not ten coats of paint, will chemically bond to alumilite. I haven't painted a mold and poured, I just know that mixing in paint doesn't effect it, and the brochure they give you tells you it will chemically bond to dry paint in a mold. Problem I see is the pouring. I can pour, lets say 1/8 thick in a mold and then spray with webbing. Now I want to pour another 1/8 on top. How do I keep that pour on top? As I pour it's going to push down through the webbing and curl around like a waterfall. It would be like filling a glass half full of water from the tap, pouring paint on the water, letting the paint settle on top then trying to pour more water from the tap that doesn't pour through the paint.
Now my other side of the theory. You fill the mold half full of resin. You spray the webbing stuff nice and thick on top, You pour more resin in a crazy pattern across the mold. As the new resin hits the webbing, it pushes some down and the webbing curls around and pushes in all direction. It's ok for the webbing to do that as long as the webbing never lets go of itself. If the webbing is pushed in all directions, and yet never lets go of itself, or rarely lets go of itself, then you have the actual turquios trustone effect. In the trustone, like granite, the webbing goes in a random pattern all directions. So maybe it works in theory, maybe not.

 

[NewLondon88]

I'm not sure either, but I got some powdered stone this afternoon and I plan
on trying it out probably this weekend. I just need to see if it will work.
(no alumite, though.. I only have PR)

I think you're right on the webbing, it could be applied to the mold and then
some resin poured, more webbing and another resin pour. That should mix it
in somewhat.. so that it has some 3D webbing rather than just having it on
several different planes. I'll also try putting the webbing in the mixing bucket
before pouring it into the mold. I'll be able to see if it holds together. That
should give the best 3D effect (if it works!)

 

[NewLondon88]

I forgot to update.. the webbing got lost when it cured. Probably not a
compatible product .. but I can't see it anywhere. and that powdered stone
is HARD! It cut OK on the band saw, but harder than blue lapis
Tru-Stone. So I guess 75/25 isn't a good ratio. But it was fun
experimenting.

I was also thinking about the webbing (not veining) and I wonder if it is cast
in two stages.. acrylic would probably work best for this.

Let's say you want to do white with gold web. You could cast the white,
then break it up into pebbles with your hammer. Or even tumble them in a
rock tumbler to even out the edges. Then spray the pebbles with gold
acrylic spray paint. Then when they're dry, throw them in your mold and
pour more white. That would give you gold rocks in the white resin, but the
gold rocks are white on the inside.
Dunno. Just a mind experiment at this point..

I wonder if the gold veining could be done in a similar way, but not breaking
it up into pebbles. Large chunks with sharp, irregular edges, sprayed or
drizzled with gold and then put back in the mold and the second pour is the
same color. It would probably be a fairly large mold to give you any room to
work. And likely a lot of waste at the edges
.

 

[ldb2000]

Get a talented spider :biggrin:

 

[NewLondon88]

Get a talented spider :biggrin:

they can't breathe under the resin. I think someone tried doing webbed
amber million of years ago, and look how theirs turned out.. :tongue:

 

[ldb2000]

Just imagine the scientists trying to explain that one a million years from now :befuddled::at-wits-end:

 

[cozee]

Hint . . . . .


Try thinking outside the box for a minute. All I have read is the use of PR and Alumilite which I assume is the water clear most here use for casting. Since the blanks will be colored, perhaps, if one looked at another type of casting medium, they may find the results they are looking for!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Muuuuuuuuwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha!!!!

Back to the laboratory Igor!!!!:wink:

 

[NewLondon88]

Hint . . . . .


Try thinking outside the box for a minute. All I have read is the use of PR and Alumilite which I assume is the water clear most here use for casting. Since the blanks will be colored, perhaps, if one looked at another type of casting medium, they may find the results they are looking for!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Muuuuuuuuwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha!!!!

Back to the laboratory Igor!!!!:wink:

Well I noticed that the stone blanks advertised here are acrylic and
powdered stone, cast under heat and pressure.. I'm not set up to do either
one. I'm not trying to go into business doing this, it's just one of those
things that gets you curious and you want to figure things out..

 

[cozee]

Well I noticed that the stone blanks advertised here are acrylic and
powdered stone, cast under heat and pressure.. I'm not set up to do either
one. I'm not trying to go into business doing this, it's just one of those
things that gets you curious and you want to figure things out..

Didn't say anything about going commercial nor needing equipment anything other than what the typical penturning caster already has. Just perhaps, just maybe, possibly, all one needs is different resin/colorants. Trust me, they are out there!!!!!!!!

 

[td]

Could you just maybe, possibly tell us what those products might be?

 

[cozee]

Could you just maybe, possibly tell us what those products might be?

Well I sure could! And will!!!


But not right now!! :bulgy-eyes:





Ya just might wanna be at the MPG next spring!!!!:wink::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[SherryD]

I am just starting casting and would be interested as well in this veining look. Keep us informed please.

 

[stephenwjackson]

Okay Greg.....do you actually know something about this subject, or are you just having a good time toying with the rest of us?? ________ And what is the MPG next spring that you referred to?

___________________

Some come to the fountain of knowledge to drink, I prefer to gargle.

 

[Skye]

Some try this for me:

Make a bendable but strong form, like out of cutting board material.
Using acrylic (Curtis said the other stuff is too hard) make a blank.
Wait till it's good and hard. You may even want to use a few more drop of catalyst than normal.
Use some duct tape to seal it up.
Lay it on it's side, still in the mold, smash it wit a hammer. I thought about freezing it to help with the shattering. A little dry ice maybe?
It should be pretty smashed but still in it's original shape. Sort of like a 3d puzzle that's still together.
Pour over some black resin.
Maybe vacuum cast it to fill the cracks and voids?

Do you think that would get the desired effect?

 

[NewLondon88]

Do you think that would get the desired effect?

I think this would get you the webbed effect, or something like it.
I'm not set up to try it though.

I was thinking of putting the chunks in a bowl, spraying with gold, then
putting the dried gold nuggets in the mold and pouring white resin.

 

[td]

I think Greg's got more toys than the rest of us. I want to play!!:biggrin:

Actually, if you google "marbled casting" it pulls up several companies that are carrying different resins. One is swing resin which I just recently started using from a tip from its_virgil (thanks Don!). Another is marble casting... just haven't had time to fully check it out. If I get any usable info I'll post it!

 

[CSue]

I was just "passing through here" and wondering . . . If the material used to make the webbing had a heavier viscosity than the base resin or whatever was used, it might sink in/through under pressure, yet not mix because of the difference in weight. Is that possible?

 

[NewLondon88]

I was just "passing through here" and wondering . . . If the material used to make the webbing had a heavier viscosity than the base resin or whatever was used, it might sink in/through under pressure, yet not mix because of the difference in weight. Is that possible?

Don't know about the viscosity, but the specific gravity would matter and it
might pull the metal out of solution. That's why the suggestions about
pouring resin over pieces that have already been cured.

Dunno.. it's something to play around with, though! :biggrin:

 

[amosfella]

There is a specific additive to make webbing. Check the US composite's website.

 

[NewLondon88]

There is a specific additive to make webbing. Check the US composite's website.

Yeah, I've got that on my list of things to order there, but what's the fun in
that? :biggrin: Figuring things out is half the fun..

 

[follow3]

I think Greg's got more toys than the rest of us. I want to play!!:biggrin:

Actually, if you google "marbled casting" it pulls up several companies that are carrying different resins. One is swing resin which I just recently started using from a tip from its_virgil (thanks Don!). Another is marble casting... just haven't had time to fully check it out. If I get any usable info I'll post it!

What is swing resin?

Thanks
Steve

 

[amosfella]

Yeah, I've got that on my list of things to order there, but what's the fun in
that? :biggrin: Figuring things out is half the fun..

Ya, I know. But how do you know that they don't use the same thing??
I personally like hitting stuff with hammers.

 

[Glass Scratcher]

What is swing resin?

Thanks
Steve

Swing Resin is a polyester resin that is made for the kitchen/bath counter and sink industries. It is desined to hold 50% to 70% additives such as marble dust and onyx dust. It is promoted differently than Silmar 41 and like polyester resins because the industrial amount of additives will cause a thermal cure inhibition if it were manufactured with the cobalt promoter. So the upside of using Swing Resin is that you can pack more stuff into it. Silmar 40/41 and craft PRs and those promoted with cobalt napthalanate should only be loaded with 3%-5% additives.

This information was provided by phone from lab technical support for Interplastics, Silmar products div in Kentucky.

 

[td]

Charles' answer is better than mine. :tongue: He's who I badger with all my technical questions.:biggrin::worship: Thank you Glass Scratcher!

 

[NewLondon88]

Silmar 40/41 and craft PRs and those promoted with cobalt napthalanate should only be loaded with 3%-5% additives.

Well, I guess that's why my 75% marble dust and 25% PR didn't want
to cut or turn In fact, I think I had to add more resin just to get
it mixed.
My dad used to make cultured marble but it's been many years and
he didn't remember the recipe. 75% marble sounded right to him, but
he wasn't buying casting resin from a craft shop. He got styrene in
55 gallon drums and added MEK and cobalt to the mix. Fumes were
a bit stronger than craft resins, though. And the heat could melt
the RTV rubber molds if you weren't careful..