Has "KITLESS" outlived its usefulness?

[PenPal]

Why not show people with the words this is my latest pen.

So many times this is accompanied by sellers saying look how the grain matches etc etc.

When I buy products I ask the questions as a rule.

Certain items eg a box of matches, cheap, reliable, available, necessary.

Pens cheap available, necessary then purpose to use or impress settling an estate for family once the main Solicitor used what was to me a giant fountain pen then said sign here I was impressed, mind you he was supersized also.

Being natural during a sale time enhances the product that in itself should set itself apart in some way.

Anyway have fun lighten up I say works for me.

Kind regards Peter.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Now your talking, I'll make a salesman out of you yet!!!!!:biggrin:

From now on when showing a pen, I intend to just say..... "Here's a nice pen!" or "Here's one of my most magnificent creations that will surely make your jaws drop".... whichever is appropriate! :wink:

 

[Smitty37]

In the automotive world, including cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, a "kit" automobile is perceived as much less valuable because it was built from a bag or box of "kit" parts. In fact, in our State, a "kit" car must go through rigorous testing and inspection before it can be licensed for the highway. About 3 in 10 "kit" automobiles make it through this process.

Even lower in the automotive world, is the "kitless" vehicle. Those who make the decisions on highway safety regard a "kitless" vehicle as one that is home made and doesn't use the box of "kit" parts that must comply with highway safety standards before they can be sold to "kit" car builders. Less than 1 in ten of these vehicles is ever cleared for highway use. Many potential buyers of these cool creations are hesitant of purchasing such a vehicle, simply because replacement of a part may require expensive custom fabrication.

On the other side of this equation, are the custom builders. Jessie James and OCC come immediately to mind in the motorcycle world, as does Summerset in custom Yachts. These builders get the very top market prices because they use industry standard parts and tooling, and comply with all highway safety standards.

IMHO, OCC builds "kit" bikes, yet they command a premium price simply because their audience views them as custom builders.
Perhaps what you call your creation, as well as the standards used does affect/effect its perceived value in the market place.

Hmmmm, last time I had my boat inspected it wouldn't have met very many highway safety standards[the brakes on boats are just awful]....now I am assuming here that yachts are still boats.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

Been There Done that....

I've been trying (most of the time I remember) to refer to 'kits' as component sets and to be frank, very few of my customers seem to agree - they still call them kits.

On the other hand, to the pen buying public, I would never use the word kit nor would I say kitless. Kit to the general public means a box of plastic parts that you glue together and come out with a model of a 1932 Chevy convertible.

You are selling a custom pen - where you got a particular part is of no consequence...unless you are making all of the parts yourself. Then you might want to tell prospective buyers that.

 

[Linarestribe]

Has anybody or will anybody admit to using the word "kit-less" with a customer or is it just used here, between us?

 

[PenMan1]

You've got an old boat, Smitty. Many of the new boats (including Sea Doo PWCs) have brakes! Many of the newer, big boats are driven with joysticks, rather than steering wheels. These crafts can stop, and even hover in place in a swift current.

AND the NMMA (the waterway version of National Highway Safety Board) actually writes a specification for Marine braking systems Just saying....

In the automotive world, including cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, a "kit" automobile is perceived as much less valuable because it was built from a bag or box of "kit" parts. In fact, in our State, a "kit" car must go through rigorous testing and inspection before it can be licensed for the highway. About 3 in 10 "kit" automobiles make it through this process.

Even lower in the automotive world, is the "kitless" vehicle. Those who make the decisions on highway safety regard a "kitless" vehicle as one that is home made and doesn't use the box of "kit" parts that must comply with highway safety standards before they can be sold to "kit" car builders. Less than 1 in ten of these vehicles is ever cleared for highway use. Many potential buyers of these cool creations are hesitant of purchasing such a vehicle, simply because replacement of a part may require expensive custom fabrication.

On the other side of this equation, are the custom builders. Jessie James and OCC come immediately to mind in the motorcycle world, as does Summerset in custom Yachts. These builders get the very top market prices because they use industry standard parts and tooling, and comply with all highway safety standards.

IMHO, OCC builds "kit" bikes, yet they command a premium price simply because their audience views them as custom builders.
Perhaps what you call your creation, as well as the standards used does affect/effect its perceived value in the market place.

Hmmmm, last time I had my boat inspected it wouldn't have met very many highway safety standards[the brakes on boats are just awful]....now I am assuming here that yachts are still boats.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

You've got an old boat, Smitty. Many of the new boats (including Sea Doo PWCs) have brakes! Many of the newer, big boats are driven with joysticks, rather than steering wheels. These crafts can stop, and even hover in place in a swift current.

AND the NMMA (the waterway version of National Highway Safety Board) actually writes a specification for Marine braking systems Just saying....

In the automotive world, including cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, a "kit" automobile is perceived as much less valuable because it was built from a bag or box of "kit" parts. In fact, in our State, a "kit" car must go through rigorous testing and inspection before it can be licensed for the highway. About 3 in 10 "kit" automobiles make it through this process.

Even lower in the automotive world, is the "kitless" vehicle. Those who make the decisions on highway safety regard a "kitless" vehicle as one that is home made and doesn't use the box of "kit" parts that must comply with highway safety standards before they can be sold to "kit" car builders. Less than 1 in ten of these vehicles is ever cleared for highway use. Many potential buyers of these cool creations are hesitant of purchasing such a vehicle, simply because replacement of a part may require expensive custom fabrication.

On the other side of this equation, are the custom builders. Jessie James and OCC come immediately to mind in the motorcycle world, as does Summerset in custom Yachts. These builders get the very top market prices because they use industry standard parts and tooling, and comply with all highway safety standards.

IMHO, OCC builds "kit" bikes, yet they command a premium price simply because their audience views them as custom builders.
Perhaps what you call your creation, as well as the standards used does affect/effect its perceived value in the market place.

Hmmmm, last time I had my boat inspected it wouldn't have met very many highway safety standards[the brakes on boats are just awful]....now I am assuming here that yachts are still boats.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Referring to highway safety standards was the operative part of my reply.

They put the SeaDoo in reverse I think that is more akin to down shifting a car than applying brakes. And while the SeaDoo is a watercraft, I am not sure I'd call it a boat, don't think I've evers seen them advertised as boats either but then I don't usually pay much attention to ads for them because while I have used them a few times I never really had any desire to own one - no good place to put the fish poles.

Put any boat going forward in reverse it will slow down faster than if left in forward - I had to do that every time I tied up at my slip (I tied up bow to the pier).:biggrin:

I looked into kit cars many years ago and at that time most of them were just the body and needed the frame and drive train from a standard car. I seem to remember that a lot of them used a Mustang frame but I'm not 100% sure about that - I was looking in the 70s but we had too many kids to be able to make a toy for me to putch around with. They were not cheap. There were a lot of problems getting one registered because of titling also because until the 60s there were no real standards to speak of regarding VIN numbers.

 

[Dale Lynch]

Has anybody or will anybody admit to using the word "kit-less" with a customer or is it just used here, between us?

I have never used the word"kit-less" but I used the word "kit" all the time whrn telling customers about my pens.It's not a big deal unless yoour dealing with a pen snob.My customers appreciate the straight talk over fluff.I tellthem what the body is,wether it be burl or truestone.I tell them the name of the pen style,also the company that made the components.I give them a general idea of how the peices are made.I don't know any trade secerets to be very specific.I also explain what I do to create the body for the kit.I have been asked a time or two if anyone can make them,since they are made from kits.I respond that yes anyone can learn to make them,you just need a lathe,chisels,mandrels,bushings,glue,sandpaper,polish,wood finish,wax,buffs,blanks,kits,etc.

Just sold a handful of pens and styluses to the nurses at the regional center and thay asked me to make more,even got a doctor who's interested in some when I make some more.I think I'll try and set him up with a desire.

Best wishes,Dale

 

[BigShed]

I see the term "kitless" as used only within our community of turners. I don't think I would ever say kitless to a customer or even state that the others are from kits of any sorts.

As far as customers are concerned, these are ALL hand crafted pens/pencils/stylus/whatever

I think that sums up my feelings exactly, I would never use the term "kitless" to a customer, nor do I ever refer to a pen as a "Sierra" or a "Baron" to a customer. I describe the pen for what it is and what it is made from and that it is made by a craftsman pen maker.
I haven't come across too many pen makers that make pens completely from scratch, who makes his own nibs, converters etc???

But within the IAP or other pen maker community "kitless" does get across what we are trying to convey.

Having said that all that, I don't like the term "kitless" either, so if someone can come up with an equally descriptive word that would be great.

 

[GaryMGg]

Within the forum I actually think kit, modified kit and kitless are very appropriate descriptors. When used, I know exactly what you are saying.... I don't think kitless has outlived its usefulness any more than kit has.

Until such time as someone comes up with more appropriate terminology, I'm in agreement with the above.
For me, it's more important that we understand one another explicitly than it is we like the terms we use.

BTW, and in my opinion, some of the nicest "custom homes" built in the USA were Sears Craftsman kit homes. :wink:

 

[MartinPens]

I haven't made any "hand-threaded" or "self-threaded" pens yet. But I so agree with you and others, George.

Custom works great. Custom Handcrafted is my favorite term; it adds a little more umph. Precison handcrafted is appropriate but could be used for many pens using components.

I'm going to do my best to stop using the "K" word. Lol. : )

Regards

 

[Smitty37]

Within the forum I actually think kit, modified kit and kitless are very appropriate descriptors. When used, I know exactly what you are saying.... I don't think kitless has outlived its usefulness any more than kit has.

Until such time as someone comes up with more appropriate terminology, I'm in agreement with the above.
For me, it's more important that we understand one another explicitly than it is we like the terms we use.

BTW, and in my opinion, some of the nicest "custom homes" built in the USA were Sears Craftsman kit homes. :wink:

Few of us are aware of how common "packaged" homes used to be. Even today you can still buy them - log homes in particular are very often "kits" as are geodesic dome homes.

 

[Drstrangefart]

My 2 cents for what it's worth: Kitless is just a convenient term to mean either no kit was used, or the original parts were completely modified into something else. Technically it may not be the most accurate, but it gets the point across. I would definitely use the word Custom for sales purposes, but for shop talk it's a useful term to have handy.

 

[azamiryou]

Has anybody or will anybody admit to using the word "kit-less" with a customer or is it just used here, between us?

I don't use "kit" or "kitless" when talking to customers or in any of my promotional information on- or off-line. On-line, though, I use "kitless" as a keyword tag, because some knowledgeable shoppers do use it. It's actually in the top ten search keywords used by my visitors.

Same goes for the kit names. I don't talk about them, but I make sure they're in my tags because some people search for them. And if someone knows they want a Navigator Roller Ball, I want them to be able to find pens I've made from Navigator components.

 

[Linarestribe]

I use "kitless" as a keyword tag, because some knowledgeable shoppers do use it. It's actually in the top ten search keywords used by my visitors.

Same goes for the kit names.

I think this is a very good point as far as SEO goes. Thanks for sharing.

 

[firewhatfire]

Gosh I hope not. I have yet to master it. Call it whatever you want. I am amazed at those of you who do it. I hope to master it someday.

Phil

 

[dansills]

I use "kitless" as a keyword tag, because some knowledgeable shoppers do use it. It's actually in the top ten search keywords used by my visitors.

Same goes for the kit names.

I think this is a very good point as far as SEO goes. Thanks for sharing.

Don't forget those searches could easily be (and probably are) other pen makers checking out your stuff (nobody does that right?)- I just can't see consumers searching for a jr retro, Sierra, cigar and etc ... Much less typing in a search for a "kit less" pen. It made me feel stupid to type it just now! I think I will do a search for a kit less knife real fast, perhaps a kitless billiard cue, maybe a kitless tool or even a kitless kit (that statement has actually been used many many times right here on this site in a prior post - what the hell is a kitless kit and when did we all forget what we learned in English class????). Go ahead, google kitless kit and behold the geniuses that appear in the search results. Us! Right here on the IAP discussing kitless kits!! While you are at google feel free to type in kitless p ... Allow google to show you suggestions after typing the "p". All those results are from us talking about it, instructions on it and even making videos of the elusive kitless. It is us pen makers searching for KITLESS - not consumers!! A kitless _________ just sounds retarded. We could fill in the blank with pretty much anything tangible and it will just never sound right!

The reality is simple ... Consumable products require parts to build. Sometimes those parts are sold individually and sometimes those parts are sold together. Those parts could be made by an individual or by a company – doesn't really matter, we need parts (or kits, components, pieces, etc) to make our pens. Re-read that - to MAKE our pens. Are we really so naive to think someone cares how those parts get made and who made them? Nope... Besides the fact, that rarely do we see a "kitless" pen where the finial doesn't look odd, maybe the clip, no clip at all, odd insert material, weird looking portable caps, etc... the list goes on forever. Custom work? Absolutely, no doubt that making a pen without using a kit is highly custom piece of art but none th less just that - custom.

IMO, we should all vow immediately to never say kitless again when speaking of our creations. Let's just all make our own "custom pens"!!!! We ALL do make CUSTOM pens ... some different levels of intricacy and ornate ness, yes but at the end of the day they are all just custom pens.

PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.

 

[chriselle]

PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.

Ya...I'm afraid I can't go along with this sentiment either despite the fact that I have never done any segmenting of any kind. Much respect to those who do excel at it. A few of the pens I'm starting now will be done by...oh....next year sometime.

 

[trapper]

Well my thoughts are that the end product of our efforts is a pen pencil or indeed sometimes such things as laser pens pointer touch pens for pc etc. I've moved away from the kits as to be honest there seems only so much you can do based on the same chassis. i concentrate on pens based on rollerball or twists at the moment and apart from the refills and mechanisms make all of the components.
is this kitless after all once i made the bits i have a kit of parts to assemble. all a question of semantics i guess

 

[Twissy]

As far as my customers are concerned I refer to all of my kit type pens as custom pens....I take the component parts and customize a body to suit. For my kitless pens I refer to them as "bespoke" I designed them, and they are totally unique.

As far as this forum is concerned, kit and kitless acts as a good filter, for me. If I'm browsing SOYP and saw "abc123 kitless" I would definitely look at it. If I saw "abc123 Jr Gent" I may or may not look at it.

You say tomaytoes I say tomatoes!

 

[glycerine]

I use "kitless" as a keyword tag, because some knowledgeable shoppers do use it. It's actually in the top ten search keywords used by my visitors.

Same goes for the kit names.

I think this is a very good point as far as SEO goes. Thanks for sharing.

Don't forget those searches could easily be (and probably are) other pen makers checking out your stuff (nobody does that right?)- I just can't see consumers searching for a jr retro, Sierra, cigar and etc ... Much less typing in a search for a "kit less" pen. It made me feel stupid to type it just now! I think I will do a search for a kit less knife real fast, perhaps a kitless billiard cue, maybe a kitless tool or even a kitless kit (that statement has actually been used many many times right here on this site in a prior post - what the hell is a kitless kit and when did we all forget what we learned in English class????). Go ahead, google kitless kit and behold the geniuses that appear in the search results. Us! Right here on the IAP discussing kitless kits!! While you are at google feel free to type in kitless p ... Allow google to show you suggestions after typing the "p". All those results are from us talking about it, instructions on it and even making videos of the elusive kitless. It is us pen makers searching for KITLESS - not consumers!! A kitless _________ just sounds retarded. We could fill in the blank with pretty much anything tangible and it will just never sound right!

The reality is simple ... Consumable products require parts to build. Sometimes those parts are sold individually and sometimes those parts are sold together. Those parts could be made by an individual or by a company – doesn't really matter, we need parts (or kits, components, pieces, etc) to make our pens. Re-read that - to MAKE our pens. Are we really so naive to think someone cares how those parts get made and who made them? Nope... Besides the fact, that rarely do we see a "kitless" pen where the finial doesn't look odd, maybe the clip, no clip at all, odd insert material, weird looking portable caps, etc... the list goes on forever. Custom work? Absolutely, no doubt that making a pen without using a kit is highly custom piece of art but none th less just that - custom.

IMO, we should all vow immediately to never say kitless again when speaking of our creations. Let's just all make our own "custom pens"!!!! We ALL do make CUSTOM pens ... some different levels of intricacy and ornate ness, yes but at the end of the day they are all just custom pens.

PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.

Specifically pertaining to the IAP and pen making in general:
It's a natural progression. Most of us started making pens (and other items) from sets of pre-packaged parts that we call "kits". When one progresses to making said pens without the need of those "kits", it's natural to call them "kitless". Here on the IAP, it's a quick and easy term to seperate those two categories of pens (those made by using "kits" and those made WITHOUT using "kits"). The term "custom" on this forum isn't really a good descriptor because it's a given. Pretty much all pens posted here and discussed here are custom made...

 

[dansills]

PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.

Speak for yourself, in my opinion, you don't know what you're talking about!

Probably not... Excuse me for speaking. I do apologize for stating what should be obvious ( I know it is to consumers) ... Set any custom "kitless" (maybe you can get lucky and it will have a clip at least) beside any custom scalloped and segmented kit pen with a high end plating. Perhaps you will see the difference then ...if not then I recommend an appointment at the eye doctor.

 

[Lenny]

I simply like to call them "Fine Handcrafted Writing Instruments"

 

[BSea]

PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.

Speak for yourself, in my opinion, you don't know what you're talking about!

Probably not... Excuse me for speaking. I do apologize for stating what should be obvious ( I know it is to consumers) ... Set any custom "kitless" (maybe you can get lucky and it will have a clip at least) beside any custom scalloped and segmented kit pen with a high end plating. Perhaps you will see the difference then ...if not then I recommend an appointment at the eye doctor.

I know that some of the scalloped pens have been fantastic. But from my experience (although limited) a custom "kitless" pen is more difficult & time consuming than a scalloped segmented kit pen. Yes some "kitless" pens may seem rather plain in comparison to a fancy scalloped pen. And I'm sure a few of the better scalloped pens take longer than a run of the mill (if there is such a thing) kitless. But certainly not most. I'm not trying to start an argument with you dansills, but unless I'm mistaken, you haven't made either a scalloped or a kitless. You have made some nice segmented & closed ended pens. And that's a good start on the way to the more complicated pens. But it's just a start.

As far as dollar value, I really don't know. Nor do I care. I make pens because I enjoy making them. And I enjoy trying new things. And the most complicated pens I've made have been the kitless ones.

 

[Curly]

If someone does a fancy segmented and scalloped handcrafted custom kitless pen are we going to call them Seglessed Writing Instruments and elevate them to a position higher than other pens? :yawn:

To myself I think kitless. Selling, they are handcrafted, custom, or scratch built. Especially the latter if they have a bad nib.

 

[Smitty37]

Hmmmmmmmm

And folks accuse me of getting upset about "quality".......:biggrin:

 

[IPD_Mr]

I make pens because I enjoy making them. And I enjoy trying new things.

Sometimes in all our zeal, that is the one thing that many loose sight of. For many of us it is the most important aspect of this hobby.

 

[glycerine]

PS ... To start a seperate conversation: We all privately know that there is a hell of a lot more time, customization and dollar value in most of the segmented & scalloped pens here on this site (wiset ), they far exceed the customization of any "kit less" creation IMHO.

Speak for yourself, in my opinion, you don't know what you're talking about!

Probably not... Excuse me for speaking. I do apologize for stating what should be obvious ( I know it is to consumers) ... Set any custom "kitless" (maybe you can get lucky and it will have a clip at least) beside any custom scalloped and segmented kit pen with a high end plating. Perhaps you will see the difference then ...if not then I recommend an appointment at the eye doctor.

First of all, take a look at what the Gisi brothers do. You seem to be under the assumption that a "kitless" pen cannot be segmented.
Secondly, what's highlighted in blue explains your statement highlighted in red. It really all depends on your "consumers".
As far as taking more time to make, heck, it took me less time to make my first herringbone 360 pen than it did to make my first kitless!

In either case, none of this pertains to the original post...

 

[jd99]

I simply like to call them "Fine Handcrafted Writing Instruments"

:good:
Thats sorta what it says On my card "Fine Writing Instruments for the Unique Individual"

 

[underdog]

I don't use the word "kit" for the kit. I use the word "hardware" for the kit. Sounds more professional.

How about "bespoke" instead of "kitless"? Hmmmm?

 

[Timebandit]

For my kitless pens I refer to them as "bespoke" I designed them, and they are totally unique.

I don't use the word "kit" for the kit. I use the word "hardware" for the kit. Sounds more professional.

How about "bespoke" instead of "kitless"? Hmmmm?

Bespoke isnt good because it actually means made to a buyer's specification (personalized or tailored). The term historically was applied only to men's clothing and other apparel, implying measurement and fitting.

The distinguishing points of bespoke are the buyer's total control over the material used, the features and fit, and the way the item should be made. More generally, "bespoke" describes a high degree of "customization, and involvement of the end-user, in the production of the goods.

The word bespoke itself is derived from the verb to bespeak, to "speak for something", in the specialized meaning "to give order for it to be made, so unless every single pen you make is made exactly to the customers specifications(which they might be) then they arent bespoke. Lots of people just make pens for fun and not for customers or sale, and these pens are not Bespoke pens. Custom, yes, bespoke no. Lets not start using other words improperly just to get rid of one we made up.

 

[azamiryou]

Here's a simple and logical system.

When talking within the penmaker community, we have:

• kit The major manufacturers/sellers call them "pen kits", and they aren't going to stop just for us. Whether or not they like it, every penturner knows this term.
• modified kit Whether or not they've made one, most any penturner can easily understand what this means: a pen based on a kit, but not made entirely according to the kit directions.
• kitless Once again, anyone familiar with a kit can figure out what this means even if they've never encountered the word before. The line between "kitless" and "modified kit" is a bit fuzzy, but so what?

When talking outside the penmaker community, we have:

• pen Yep, they're all pens... and that's the part that's important to the customer.

The above is based on communication, which is what words are for in the first place. Anyone new to IAP can understand the terms and communicate with each other, without having to learn any new vocabulary. And on the customer side, you don't need explain to the customer what a pen "kit" is or how "kitless" is "better".

 

[underdog]

I wasn't aware of the real meaning of "bespoke". Thanks for the explanation Justin.

How about that word "hardware" in place of "kit" then?

 

[Glen Schumann]

I wasn't aware of the real meaning of "bespoke". Thanks for the explanation Justin.

How about that word "hardware" in place of "kit" then?

I also learned from the explanation of bespoke.

And I too have been trying to use hardware rather than kit (need more practice).

 

[Texatdurango]

You know, when I started this thread I was in hopes that several folks would chime in agreeing that the phrase "kitless" has indeed served it's purpose over the past few years and that we could move on and just start calling a pen a pen. Instead all we're doing is once again trying to figure out the true definition of kitless or what phrase do we use to replace it.......... as if it needs replacing!

I still think "Here's a nice pen" would probably work 99% of the time.

I guess my whole point now as when I first started this thread was that I doubt seriously that there is one member here who can't tell at a glance whether a pen is made from a kit or from scratch and MORE IMPORTANTLY... DOES IT REALLY MATTER?

And IF there is that one person that can't tell kit from kitless and IF he or she asks what kit was used, I'm sure the pen maker would be glad to tell them what was used.

What amazes me is that we have had at least half a dozen of these "I'm right, your wrong",....." it's kit-less not kitless"....." you didn't make your own nib so it's still a kit"... blah, blah, blah.... And if you think about it, letting the phrase just fade away would actually stop further flair ups in the future.

I must admit, I AM TOTALLY 100 PERCENT WRONG! I would have bet that the majority of members here would be happy for a fellow pen maker who was trying something new and different, having fun in the shop, but nope......... some just can't wait to jump in hollering FOUL because their isn't a clip on the pen or the pen looks plain and ugly with no bling or not hand crafting their own extra fine nib from a sheet of 18k gold so it TECHNICALLY isn't a true kitless.

 

[IPD_Mr]

I must admit, I AM TOTALLY 100 PERCENT WRONG! I would have bet that the majority of members here would be happy for a fellow pen maker who was trying something new and different, having fun in the shop, but nope......... some just can't wait to jump in hollering FOUL because their isn't a clip on the pen or the pen looks plain and ugly with no bling or not hand crafting their own extra fine nib from a sheet of 18k gold so it TECHNICALLY isn't a true kitless.

It is called jealousy!

 

[GaryMGg]

George,

When you originally posted this, I believed you were seeking everyone's opinions on the matter.
Was I mistaken?

Personally, I like terms which operationally define an object
--it's important to have a vocabulary wherein the body of knowledge about this craft can be shared appropriately.

I still remember some of the early segmented pens you posted on this forum because they were of such high quality craftsmanship for someone so new to penturning.
However, I also understood your "exactitude" came from having a long background both as, if memory serves me correctly, an engineer and a woodworker.

I think there are definitely differences in pens:
there are differences in the quality of construction whether constructed from a
COTS package or made from scratch without using most or all the parts from a COTS package.
There is a difference in the quality of workmanship WRT matters such as
segmentation, fit of barrels to other parts, accuracy of centered drilling, quality of cut threads, the finish and more.

If these things didn't matter, none of us would strive to improve.

IMO, to eliminate the language which allows us to discuss these things and try to make all pens just another pen does the pen-turning community a disservice.

I'm not saying there has to be competition between folks NOR am I suggesting anyone should post negative things about others pens.
However, having a useful vocabulary to discuss the craft and being cordial about other folks work are not necessarily mutually exclusive constructs.

And, if someone wants only to hear "NP, GJ", that's fine too. That's their right. :biggrin:

CAVEAT: IF I ask for criticism, I'm sincerely asking for negative as well as positive feedback.
If I ask what someone thinks of my work, I must value their opinion enough to want their true opinion.

 

[Twissy]

For my kitless pens I refer to them as "bespoke" I designed them, and they are totally unique.

I don't use the word "kit" for the kit. I use the word "hardware" for the kit. Sounds more professional.

How about "bespoke" instead of "kitless"? Hmmmm?

Bespoke isnt good because it actually means made to a buyer's specification (personalized or tailored). The term historically was applied only to men's clothing and other apparel, implying measurement and fitting.

The distinguishing points of bespoke are the buyer's total control over the material used, the features and fit, and the way the item should be made. More generally, "bespoke" describes a high degree of "customization, and involvement of the end-user, in the production of the goods.

The word bespoke itself is derived from the verb to bespeak, to "speak for something", in the specialized meaning "to give order for it to be made, so unless every single pen you make is made exactly to the customers specifications(which they might be) then they arent bespoke. Lots of people just make pens for fun and not for customers or sale, and these pens are not Bespoke pens. Custom, yes, bespoke no. Lets not start using other words improperly just to get rid of one we made up.

You're quite right Justin, and I wasn't suggesting it be adopted, just what works for me. The majority of my kitlesssmile pens I sell are as the word implies to the customers requirements, i.e. they choose one of my designs but select the material and their nib requirements.
Cheers
John

 

[Timebandit]

For my kitless pens I refer to them as "bespoke" I designed them, and they are totally unique.

I don't use the word "kit" for the kit. I use the word "hardware" for the kit. Sounds more professional.

How about "bespoke" instead of "kitless"? Hmmmm?

Bespoke isnt good because it actually means made to a buyer's specification (personalized or tailored). The term historically was applied only to men's clothing and other apparel, implying measurement and fitting.

The distinguishing points of bespoke are the buyer's total control over the material used, the features and fit, and the way the item should be made. More generally, "bespoke" describes a high degree of "customization, and involvement of the end-user, in the production of the goods.

The word bespoke itself is derived from the verb to bespeak, to "speak for something", in the specialized meaning "to give order for it to be made, so unless every single pen you make is made exactly to the customers specifications(which they might be) then they arent bespoke. Lots of people just make pens for fun and not for customers or sale, and these pens are not Bespoke pens. Custom, yes, bespoke no. Lets not start using other words improperly just to get rid of one we made up.

You're quite right Justin, and I wasn't suggesting it be adopted, just what works for me. The majority of my kitlesssmile pens I sell are as the word implies to the customers requirements, i.e. they choose one of my designs but select the material and their nib requirements.
Cheers
John

Hey John, i wasnt suggesting that you were suggesting that. You just mentioned it, and underdog suggested it. Call them what you will, but if your customer only choses a pen design that you already make, a material that you have and a nib that you have, doesnt make them "bespoke" either. They just chose from what you have. Having something"bespoke" is to have it greatly customized to fit you perfectly. Now if the customer chose a pen design that you make, but has large hands and would like it longer than you normally make this design, and wants more taper at the end, and he likes a front section from another one of your pen designs and wants that shape on this pen, and decides he wants a clip from a different design that you make, and he wants you to grind the medium nib to a broad, then it would be "bespoke". Now obviously he doesnt have to do all of these for it to be "bespoke", but there needs to be more than basic, this design, this material, this nib, the customer doent have much say in the pen this way. If you go into a suit shop and chose a tuxedo, and chose it in blue, and chose to have a white shirt under it, it isnt "bespoke". It is if you have the tailor measure you and make a suit that perfectly fits your body from head to toe. Just trying to get people to use words properly.:wink:

 

[Texatdurango]

i wasnt suggesting that you were suggesting that. ....... Just trying to get people to use words properly.:wink:

I wasn't suggesting that he was suggesting that we were suggesting that you thought that they were suggesting that others should be suggesting that I should suggest........

Good Grief........I'm getting dizzy! Perhaps continuing to use the phrase kitless isn't such a bad idea after all, even though it's not a real word!

This message courtesy of Mt. View Rv park in Baker, Oregon!