Eagle

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Originally posted by ahoiberg
<br />so, sorry for asking such a juvenile question regarding the blank and maybe it was already fielded, but this thread was kinda hard to follow.

are those inlays on the blank done with an exacto knife or something? and are the inlays themselves just REALLY thin pieces of wood or some other material?

I would guess Eagle is useing a small Diablo 7 1/4 inch saw blade in a table saw to cut the blanks on a an angled sled, then useing laminated veneer cut with a Dave Reed Smith vacum rip fence to fill the saw kerf.
It is just a guess though.
Ron Sardo has an article in the 2006 library on how to do something similiar but he is using solid wood instead of laminated veneer for the inlays.
 
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This is a nice looking blank and very neat pen.

Now a little bit of my thinking here, why do we have to lock this topic?? maybe you was right and vise to see the storm coming because of the creator of the blank, I repeat Don question, are we here to share our skill or not and how to do this? if yes let share if not then you shouldn't be here, we are here to share our knowledge and to upgrade ourself for our hobi, Eagle don't do any tutorial ( sorry he did 1 ) please read it and read it, you will find lots of help bettween lines and words I'm not here to save is back but to make you understand is skills ( I hope so[:D] )

Originally posted by penhead
<br />
To clear the air a bit, locking the thread was NOT about censoring, or stifling the Ealge. I personally have nothing against the person, have never met him, don't even know his real name.

And, for the record, I have been doing quite a bit of segmented work lately. Looking at the blank that Ron posted made me stare at it for quite some time wondering if it was segmented or inlay, and mostly how the heck he did that. It looked like feathers to me.

Let me try to explain this blank for you if I realy understood Eagle way.

First look the blank, save and enlarge it, IMHO this blank was Octogonal ( so turn 8 time when cuting for the inlay ), cut is maybe say 30 degree more or less ( up to people to try different angle, that why we got scrape wood [:D] ), cuts as been made on table saw 1/2 way through the blank ( if you look Ron Mc as I done is X pen you will undrestand, but do not cut the blank in half ) let me explain the blank is 3/4 right? the hight of your table saw blade would be ?? ....................1/2 this size, if people read before Eagle posts they will see he use Reed vaccumm slide table and he do is own veneer as well, now if you read and look at is only tutorial you will notice that Eagle use a Diabolo blade so the inlay is the kef size of the blade, now he is the tricky part I think he turn around the blank to do the last cuts ( I mean 4 cuts 1 way (( let say side1,3,5,7 )), turn the blank over and do the last 4 cuts the other way (( let say side 2,4,6,8)), I may be wrong but is good to try, if you don't try you will never know[:D] ) SO........... let's give a try.

Sorry Eagle if I explaind your secrets [;)]
 
Serge,
I don't think you need to apologize to Eagle for explaining his "secrets." He doesn't mind if someone figures out how he does something like this blank. In fact, he would probably be the first to congratulate someone who did the same thing.
 
That IS exactly correct.

Eagle would congratulate someone who DOES the same thing.

Having explained the technique you THINK he employed, once you try it, you will have to "iron out a few details". AT THAT POINT, you gain a greater respect for the finished pen.

GIVE IT A WHIRL!!!![:D][:D] Post the pen, when it's done!
 
Originally posted by ed4copies
<br />That IS exactly correct.

Eagle would congratulate someone who DOES the same thing.

Having explained the technique you THINK he employed, once you try it, you will have to "iron out a few details". AT THAT POINT, you gain a greater respect for the finished pen.

GIVE IT A WHIRL!!!![:D][:D] Post the pen, when it's done!

Please do not imply that is exactly what he would do anyone. I received a different treatment when it came to shell casings.
 
Originally posted by cozee
Please do not imply that is exactly what he would do anyone....

This IS the type of post that's NOT NEEDED. I don't know much history but I know the history between these two is bad.
Without the ability to defend himself, NONE of us should saying anything further about the MAN personally. Talk about his skill all we want, but leave HIM out.

Please.

Respectfully,
Gary
 
Vick and Darley have it right. The one thing that may not have been addressed was that someone said the inlays were paraller to ech other, which would be very easy to do if you already have the strips cutthat are going to be glued in.

If you have the strips, simply pile them up behind the blank on the sled. As you make each cut and turn the blank, remove one of the strips. As you remove the strips, you "advance" the blank by that given dimension. You now can make each cut exactly the same distance from the next while still keeping all cuts parallel to each other. Once you trun the blank, those cuts look round, instead of straight.

Don't ask me to try this right now as I can barely even walk into my garage, let alone work at my table saw.[:(]

&lt;edit for Gary&gt; Gary, if you just posted to Cozee that we don't need what he wrote, why did you not take the previous poster to task the same way for posting his characterization?
 
Originally posted by Mikey
<br />Vick and Darley have it right. The one thing that may not have been addressed was that someone said the inlays were paraller to ech other, which would be very easy to do if you already have the strips cutthat are going to be glued in.
If you have the strips, simply pile them up behind the blank on the sled. As you make each cut and turn the blank, remove one of the strips. As you remove the strips, you "advance" the blank by that given dimension. You now can make each cut exactly the same distance from the next while still keeping all cuts parallel to each other. Once you trun the blank, those cuts look round, instead of straight.

Don't ask me to try this right now as I can barely even walk into my garage, let alone work at my table saw.[:(]

&lt;edit for Gary&gt; Gary, if you just posted to Cozee that we don't need what he wrote, why did you not take the previous poster to task the same way for posting his characterization?

Keep in mind that the blank has a curve in the pattern.

While I never pretended to be an expert on this type of work, I look forward to hearing the explanation of HOW you are going to cut a curved line with a straight table saw blade??? Then repeat it exactly many times over!!!

I am willing to be informed, tho'!!!
 
OK, I see what you mean by curve. I attempted on a piece of paper to mimic what I was talking about with the cut and the curve went in the opposite direction from what the blank goes in.

Now I'm thinking router table and some sort of small dovetail bit or straight 3/32 bit and a jig. Either way, the position being exactly the same on all cuts could be accomplished by using the laminates as spacers on the sled/jig for the blank. (almost just pulling stuff out my butt now[:D])
 
I know, but I ain't saying![}:)] As Eagle would say, figure it out for yourself!! [:D]

Actually Eagle was very secretive because he wanted people to try and figure it out. If he gave away all his secrets, it takes away from the creative juices of others (as he stated it).
 
This type of conversation is the way GREAT processes are refined.

However, not EVERYONE is given the ability to type without offending. I HOPE to achieve that and CONSTANTLY THINK about HOW my words can be misconstrued.
Not all of my friends are equally diplomatic.

Eagle has informed me that I am not completely accurate, however. The pen with which I am most familiar was the Ebony and bloodwood I posted a couple days ago. IT has a curve to the pattern and all the sides are parallel. I marvel at the workmanship. However, I HAVE been told the process to make THAT pen is NOT identical to the two pictured here, so it is POSSIBLE that YOUR suggestion COULD achieve this result.
 
Originally posted by GaryMGg
<br />
Originally posted by cozee
Please do not imply that is exactly what he would do anyone....

This IS the type of post that's NOT NEEDED. I don't know much history but I know the history between these two is bad.
Without the ability to defend himself, NONE of us should saying anything further about the MAN personally. Talk about his skill all we want, but leave HIM out.

Please.

Respectfully,
Gary

Nothing in my statement requires a defense. All I did was simply ask that a statement not be made that isn't entirely true. And no, you only know part of the history. I never recall you asking for nor I discussing with you my side of the story nor the emails I have received.
 
Is this not like this pen I did only lots more and smaller inlays? It looks to be same to me his is just 10 sided or so and multi layered. And of course super design and fit.. I cant imagine the time to get the inlays so nice.

<b>Image Insert:</b><br />
200642252742_2006_0421_204218AA.jpg
<br />
 
I asked Eagle for a direct quote to respond to this question, so it could not be stated that I was misinterpreting HIS thoughts. My e-mail arrived and is quoted below:

Eagle said:
"BTW the blank is based on a hex but there are 12 columns of "Flairs"
I would say, based on the info provided in the thread they should go for it!"


His e-mail goes on to explain TO ME the differences in the method of getting THIS pattern, as distinquished from MY ebony. So, in the future I will make certain ALL of my statements are 100% true and accurate. I hope everyone else will do the same.

Thanks
 
Greg,

...And no, you only know part of the history. I never recall you asking for nor I discussing with you my side of the story nor the emails I have received.
The portion of the statement I quoted is an inference that suggests Eagle would NOT congratulate someone who figures out how he produces something. More than that, you're following sentence of personal experience goes further to suggest that anyone who copies his method will receive harsh and abusive treatment. That is how I read what you wrote. And, that is something I believe an individual would want to defend themself over.

Now then:
I know as little of the history as I can! I work to stay out of personality politics. I get along with Eagle, I get along with you.
When Eagle starts telling me his story, I typically tell him not to.
IF I hadn't been on this forum when you and Eagle were banned, I wouldn't know any of the history between you.
It's not that I don't care; it's that if two adults can't solve the problems they have between themselves, I certainly can't so why get myself dragged between them?!?
Having said that, I still say NO ONE needs to say ANYTHING about another individual -- talk about the CRAFT all day long, leave the CRAFTER out of it.

Regards,
Gary
 
Originally posted by GaryMGg
<br />

I still say NO ONE needs to say ANYTHING about another individual -- talk about the CRAFT all day long, leave the CRAFTER out of it.

Regards,
Gary


Well said and I think something that should be adopted by all immediately.
 
Originally posted by gerryr
<br />
Originally posted by GaryMGg
<br />

I still say NO ONE needs to say ANYTHING about another individual -- talk about the CRAFT all day long, leave the CRAFTER out of it.

Regards,
Gary


Well said and I think something that should be adopted by all immediately.

Funny thing is, you agree as long as it fits your purpose. Sadly, this thread from the beginning goes against what you just supported. I tell ya what. I am simply going to take the summer off!! Got more important things to take care of in life than pens. See ya!
 
Keep in mind that the blank has a curve in the pattern.

While I never pretended to be an expert on this type of work, I look forward to hearing the explanation of HOW you are going to cut a curved line with a straight table saw blade??? Then repeat it exactly many times over!!!

I am willing to be informed, tho'!!!

By looking at the picture, it is easy to count the sides that he had - 6 or 12 by the number of individual inlays at one end. The curve is an illusion of sorts or that can be seen in the mind's eye before the turning - by making strait cuts at an angle on a square or hex blank - then turning it round. Celtic knots on pens are nothing more than thin slices of flat straight wood segmented into the blank then turned round.

I suspect that Eagle made numerous parallel cuts at an angle from one edge of the hex, and then followed this by doing the same down each edge of the hex. After smoothing the six sides off, he then made parallel cuts again on each side of the hex - starting in the middle of each side instead of the edge.

That may not be clear but looking at his pattern, it is easy (for me) to see what is happening. It helps that I have been experimenting with a similar cut on 4 and 8 sides.

A KEY to me is that the blanks must be nearly perfectly square, hex or octogonal down the whole length of the blank. To me, it takes a good jig, good hold down and a good saw sled. But with these three, practice and patience, it becomes very doable!

As far as CURVES go, the picture that Nolan posted above - one without experience might view the inlays as curves. But with exprience, it will probably be veiwed as a straight piece placed in a cross cut angle slot in the wood and turned round.
 
The pen blank Ron has is one Eagle modified by taking RPM's concept and tweaking it.
Here's a link to the early post with a version of the current blank being discussed.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=6538&SearchTerms=120,cut,spiral

Cat. Bag. Out. Let the mayhem begin. One word of caution: don't do these without a dedicated jig -- your digits be too valuable. [;)]

Edited by request from the craftsman asking that this picture be included since he was told It can't be done (Ebony with brass inlay):

HBFIFU_007.jpg


Gary
 
Some of you have the right idea on how to make this pen. What Eagle did was laminate three strips of wood together to the same thickness as a kerf from a table saw blade. Then he cut the laminates into strips and laid the strips into the kerfs. The greater the angle of the kerf, the more "wrap around" or curved the look. Also the depth of the cut has a lot to do with the curve.


http://woodturningdesign.com/issues/current.shtml
 
I say the pens and blanks are a creation of photoshop! It can't be done. [:D]

I've enjoyed watching and participating in this evolution. I salute the skill that has been exhibited by all that have tried it.

Richard (RPM)
 
Originally posted by wdcav1952
<br />Thank you Ron and Gary for getting this discussion back on track. I am afraid that my skill level requires that I remain on the sideline marveling at such work.

Here here. BTW, I stand corrected - the slightly busy looking CB on that last pen compliments the pattern quite well.
 
Hooooo bother! I forgot 4 sides[:D][:(][xx(], Thanks Lee to explain this, that would help members and to try this type of pen probebly with less cuts, I cut some veneer for a pen ( I will post it when finish ) I don't have table saw, I cut it with my drop saw here's the size
2007523215631_laminated.jpg
<br />

Greg ( Cozee ) everyone know as Eagle speak but I can say the same thing I say to my children "" 2 wrong doesn't make right ""
 
I'm sure by now that there are members rolling their eyes about this thread wondering what the value of such bantering is.

Well, I for one would be without a tremendous amount of knowledge had it not been from reading all this.

This thread sparked my interest when I saw eagles pen and got to wondering how did he do it and more to the point, could I do the same thing? Today, when I saw the pen Nolan (n4631x) posted I just had to know what’s going on so emailed him and he was more than happy to share his knowledge.

So… Thanks to Ron for the thread, Thanks to the admin for leaving it open, Thanks to Nolan for the help and thanks to the guy who made the blank to begin with for the inspiration!

And now, without further ado…. My first inlay…….. Don’t laugh,[:p] this is not going on a pen, it’s just practice, the main thing is that it worked!

The Baltic plywood was a hair thinner than the kerf my saw left so I inserted some thin aluminum shim stock on either side of one of the pieces and it actually turned out well. Hmm, I wonder how brass or copper would look?

George


200752422558_first%20shot%20at%20inlays.jpg
<br />
 
You did really well George!

BTW, that is the beauty of a forum...each discussion can evolve to something better than anyone planned. Of course some may go south but that is far in between.

Very good job!!!
 
Hey George, did I say you're a natural. Did I huh, did I?!? [:D]

Thank you for providing further proof to the value of such discussions even if they require a little bit of ledge-gripping excitement. Where would your next pen be had this thread not come along?

Tennis anyone?
Game, set, match. [}:)][;)]

Oh yeah, is that bubinga for the main body of the barrel?

Gary
 
Originally posted by Darley
<br />Hooooo bother! I forgot 4 sides[:D][:(][xx(], Thanks Lee to explain this, that would help members and to try this type of pen probebly with less cuts, I cut some veneer for a pen ( I will post it when finish ) I don't have table saw, I cut it with my drop saw here's the size
2007523215631_laminated.jpg
<br />

Greg ( Cozee ) everyone know as Eagle speak but I can say the same thing I say to my children "" 2 wrong doesn't make right ""

Serge, that's an awfully thin cut for a drop saw! Just thinking about it scares me to death and I'm fearless! What ever you do, BE CAREFUL when making cuts like that![;)]
 
Originally posted by alamocdc
<br />Serge, that's an awfully thin cut for a drop saw! Just thinking about it scares me to death and I'm fearless! What ever you do, BE CAREFUL when making cuts like that![;)]

No worries Billy I use double side tape and waste block to hold my blank, got all my fingers still[:D]
 
For those who've said you could get the equally spaced cuts just by stacking the filler shims... Sorry, it isn't that simple. You have to have the shims PLUS the width of the space between the cuts. Otherwise you end up just cutting the wood away like using the saw to cut our a wide rabbet.

Look at a "finger joint" jig. It has a stop block the width of the slot spaced away from the saw the width of the spacer.

I guess if you were doing a blank where the grooves were some multiple of the kerf size apart you could just remove two or three shims.

This entire thread goes right to what Eagle told me a while ago (my interpretation of his logic): If someone tells you how to do something you go from your skill "A" directly to Z. If they make you figure it out for yourself you go from A through B-Y to Z. Your next project my use Q and R and you now have the skill. If you didn't work it out yourself you wouldn't have those skills.

GK
 
Originally posted by gketell
<br />
This entire thread goes right to what Eagle told me a while ago (my interpretation of his logic): If someone tells you how to do something you go from your skill "A" directly to Z. If they make you figure it out for yourself you go from A through B-Y to Z. Your next project my use Q and R and you now have the skill. If you didn't work it out yourself you wouldn't have those skills.

GK
Sorry to disagree with what you assume to be a matter of logic. IMHO it comes down to one's personal philosophy of what it means to help others advance their skills. It's the same old story that we've heard before ... this field has been furrowed before ...... I'm not interested in plowing it again. [:)]
 
you are correct, it is a personal philosophy. In college I had a professor who would teach you A-D but on the tests he would ask you questions about D-F expecting that if you had learned A-D well enough you could extrapolate. I feel he was my best professor ever.

Now in that same class there was a woman whose lifetime average grade up to that point was 108%. (We had been going to school together since Elementary School.) She absolutely hated that class because her method was to memorize everything and parrot back exactly what she was taught and she had no ability to think for herself beyond what she was taught. She quickly dropped that class.

So who is the better teacher and who is the better student? *SHRUG* It is a matter of personal preference. But if you don't like one method or the other does not mean that it is a WRONG method, just that it isn't YOUR method and you should not take offense (or give offense) because of the difference of opinion.

This is, of course, all MY opinion and if you disagree I am happy to take up the philisophical discussion as long as people don't start getting personal. [:D]

GK
 
Ahhhhh, another philosophical question Mikey. Is more money the root of all happiness?

And another: is getting more money all skill, or luck or both? And/or does skill help lead to luck?

I know my answer was that skill got me in the right place that luck was able to come into play. If only I had sold "high". [:eek:)]

GK
 
Mike,

By your measure, Bill Gates would, of necessity, be the BEST student in the world - but, he quit school (and he has said in interviews he was NOT an exceptional student).

Many RICH people are unhappy.

Just Food For Thought, no offense or real POINT intended.
 
Ed, Bill Gates must have learned more than enough in school to make the decisions he made. Someone doesn't become the richest person on earth by accident.

Greg, I can tell you for sure that money does buy hapiness. I'm sure at some point too much money could lead to misery, but when you have none and are struggling to survive, nothing makes you happier than being able to pay your bills and have enough left over to take your S/O out to dinner.
 
Mike,
Reminds me of what my dad used to say:

You can be rich and miserable or you can be poor and miserable. But you can be a whole lot more comfortable while your miserable when you're rich. [;)]
 
No argument there, Mikey. But "enough money" is different than "the most money". [:D]

Philisophical question: Just what is ENOUGH money?? [}:)]

But this is even further off topic than any of the other tangents in this thread so I'm going to stop here.

GK
 
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Originally posted by gketell
<br />And another: is getting more money all skill, or luck or both? And/or does skill help lead to luck? [:eek:)]

GK

10% skill, 20% luck, 70% perspiration.

--------------------


Ok, here is another pen to mull over,

Wooden nib
Wooden cap
Slightly thinner than a cigar
custom length tubes

The two bands above and below the triangles is purpleheart veneer sandwiched between two ebony veneers

Southwest_Pen_s.jpg
 
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