Double Start Taps and Dies in M10 and M12

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edstreet said:
skiprat said:
edstreet said:
Please do not forget to use proper fluid with these and be very certain to do a good and proper break in on the die's before production use.
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Using proper cutting fluid for the material is a given, but please can you expand on the 'breaking in' of the dies?
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Sure, break in period will determine the lifespan of the item and help prolong the lifespan.

Since Die's are unable to be resharpened to any substantial degree once they are gone they are gone. A tap is different as it can be resharpened. Also the convex vs concave surface makes a difference.

Same reason you would strop a cutting edge after sharpening it. By a proper break in you will essentially hone the cutting edges and provide for a longer lifetime.

This time also allows you to map the personality of the die on how it performs and where the pitfalls are at.
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I guess I'm a little slow. Exactly how do you break in a die? Do you cut soft metal? Or only something like alumilite? I understand that you're saying to break it in. But how exactly?
 
BSea said:
edstreet said:
skiprat said:
edstreet said:
Please do not forget to use proper fluid with these and be very certain to do a good and proper break in on the die's before production use.
Click to expand...

Using proper cutting fluid for the material is a given, but please can you expand on the 'breaking in' of the dies?
Click to expand...


Sure, break in period will determine the lifespan of the item and help prolong the lifespan.

Since Die's are unable to be resharpened to any substantial degree once they are gone they are gone. A tap is different as it can be resharpened. Also the convex vs concave surface makes a difference.

Same reason you would strop a cutting edge after sharpening it. By a proper break in you will essentially hone the cutting edges and provide for a longer lifetime.

This time also allows you to map the personality of the die on how it performs and where the pitfalls are at.
Click to expand...
I guess I'm a little slow. Exactly how do you break in a die? Do you cut soft metal? Or only something like alumilite? I understand that you're saying to break it in. But how exactly?
Click to expand...


A new die will have burrs, for the first dozen or 2 cuts you will notice some slight shifting of those burrs. In the break in period you are essentially burnishing the cutting surface into a final shape.

This is like buying a new pair of shoes and you have a break in period. Same with clothing, vehicles, motors, equipment and the like. Cutting some materials, i.e. softer materials, you may see a wider variance in that window period.


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Good break in you do want something softer so that the burrs will move and not be chipped off, if you are using super hard material they are more apt to chip and form craters.

On that note good ample fluid that is suited for the material being used really helps. Also not all fluid is the same as each material can/will require a different type of fluid.
 

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edstreet said:
Sure, break in period will determine the lifespan of the item and help prolong the lifespan.

Since Die's are unable to be resharpened to any substantial degree once they are gone they are gone. A tap is different as it can be resharpened. Also the convex vs concave surface makes a difference.

Same reason you would strop a cutting edge after sharpening it. By a proper break in you will essentially hone the cutting edges and provide for a longer lifetime

A new die will have burrs, for the first dozen or 2 cuts you will notice some slight shifting of those burrs. In the break in period you are essentially burnishing the cutting surface into a final shape.

This is like buying a new pair of shoes and you have a break in period. Same with clothing, vehicles, motors, equipment and the like. Cutting some materials, i.e. softer materials, you may see a wider variance in that window period.

Good break in you do want something softer so that the burrs will move and not be chipped off, if you are using super hard material they are more apt to chip and form craters.

On that note good ample fluid that is suited for the material being used really helps. Also not all fluid is the same as each material can/will require a different type of fluid.
Click to expand...

Ed,

I see it's worth harnessing your expertise in to a tutorial or a separate thread on this subject alone as if it needs so many different cutting fluids for different materials then your skills and knowledge would be appreciated.

Breaking in periods on what type of materials and specifics for taps and dies would be appreciated..

As for blood,, used my own too many times so I think I will skip that one..
Thanks.
 
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mine also arrived yesterday. I am debating sending back to Tapco to get Titanium coated. I was under the impression all of them were going to done that way. I suppose i should learn to read next time.LOL

Thanks again for spearheading this group buy Ty
 
seamus7227 said:
mine also arrived yesterday. I am debating sending back to Tapco to get Titanium coated. I was under the impression all of them were going to done that way. I suppose i should learn to read next time.LOL Thanks again for spearheading this group buy Ty
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Probably partly my fault too. I learned about it after the buy was done but right as I put be order in. I didn't want I delay the bug anymore seeing who wanted to get a coating.
 
jyreene said:
seamus7227 said:
mine also arrived yesterday. I am debating sending back to Tapco to get Titanium coated. I was under the impression all of them were going to done that way. I suppose i should learn to read next time.LOL Thanks again for spearheading this group buy Ty
Click to expand...

Probably partly my fault too. I learned about it after the buy was done but right as I put be order in. I didn't want I delay the bug anymore seeing who wanted to get a coating.
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The blame would be all mine. I did not want to further confuse or delay things and I chose not to mention the treatment as we would likely still be debating the process and not have the order ready.

Treatment does several things:
1) prolongs the lifespan of the cutting edge by 2x to 3x the life.
2) since die's are unable to be resharpened once they are gone they are gone.
3) Taps can be resharpened and that prolongs their life greatly. They shave the grooves and that makes the lands more narrow but still functional.
3) treated tap/dies cut smoother, cleaner and less heat; also less energy needed to use them.
4) treatment will allow you to cut harder/stronger material.
5) threading into some materials titanium is not the best method but there are other treatments available.
6) many/most tool companies are unable to treat dies since it's a concave surface area. Tapco was able to treat them as they use a PVD process. Also they came in cheaper, other co's ask $25 per item to treat vs Tapco's $9.15 per item.

At $9.15 per item to treat (price varies to) and considering the dies were $45 and $49 each and to get double the life it seems that *ALL* special order dies like this *SHOULD* be treated.

Taps it is also good to treat them
 
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BSea said:
Ed, thanks for the explanation about breaking in the dies.
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+1

Question: would it make sense to break in the dies before having them treated? I'm thinking there's no point hardening the sprue (or whatever it's called) that you actually want to remove from the brand new die.
 
It's not being removed, it is being re shaped. Over time the coating will wear off then it could be re treated.

Like a new vehicle the oil is more dirty than an old used vehicle. Parts are still wearing and lots of particles comes out into the oil.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner
 
Mine arrived, thanks Ty -- I'm fully booked the next few weekends, but I hope to get a chance to start using them soon!
 
Mine showed up!...a couple of days ago. I'm happy with them, and now they get to be stored away until I take on learning kitless pen making.

Thanks again for hosting the GB Ty!
 
Tap and dies are really simple things to use and not that complicated or difficult. The hardest part is when you are designing threads and that part is out of the way. The hardest part is what was mentioned earlier with the fluid needed. Good attention to details will net you threads like this. (Ebonite and Brass)

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This is also not specific to 'kitless' (whatever that means)
 

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Mine arrived today..

Top marks Ty.

Thanks for everything and all you and your dearly beloved has done to help..

Much appreciated.

Great GB and really well organised. Glad I could be part of it..

Disappointingly a skip in Wales must have had priority mail..
 
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Silver said:
Mine arrived today.. Top marks Ty. Thanks for everything and all you and your dearly beloved has done to help.. Much appreciated. Great GB and really well organised. Glad I could be part of it.. Disappointingly a skip in Wales must have had priority mail.. 
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Not priority mail. I was only able to make the teleported work once!
 
got it

Thanks a lot for the nice service. RCX mine several days ago and will try my first project soon. am trying to stabilise snakewood different ways to prevent the splits.
 
Anyone not received theirs yet? I know Donovan is still waiting. I will run the tracking numbers later to check. After family leaves town.
 
Die holder

I have searched and found alot of different die holders for the dies I bought.
Do you recommend the simple hand held or buying the tailstock one?
The one for the tail stock are rather expencive but if they are better thats the way I will go.
Let me know what your opinion is.
Thanks
Rich
 
RDH79 said:
I have searched and found alot of different die holders for the dies I bought.
Do you recommend the simple hand held or buying the tailstock one?
The one for the tail stock are rather expencive but if they are better thats the way I will go.
Let me know what your opinion is.
Thanks
Rich
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My opinion is based on how easy it is to completely destroy a tenon I'm trying to thread by hand-holding the die.

Just a couple of degrees out of square (in any direction -- left/right, up/down, and all points between) and the threads start out wrong and it screeches to a halt a couple of turns in.

Or I've managed to thread a part correctly, then want to chase it one last time to smooth the surface ... the die goes on cross threaded ... :mad:

The die holders I use were made by a former member here, a steel rod gripped in a Jacobs chuck in the tailstock and a machined delrin bar that slides on the rod, with a recess to hold a die at each end. Not cheap, but worth it to me.
 
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duncsuss said:
RDH79 said:
I have searched and found alot of different die holders for the dies I bought.
Do you recommend the simple hand held or buying the tailstock one?
The one for the tail stock are rather expencive but if they are better thats the way I will go.
Let me know what your opinion is.
Thanks
Rich
Click to expand...

My opinion is based on how easy it is to completely destroy a tenon I'm trying to thread by hand-holding the die.

Just a couple of degrees out of square (in any direction -- left/right, up/down, and all points between) and the threads start out wrong and it screeches to a halt a couple of turns in.

Or I've managed to thread a part correctly, then want to chase it one last time to smooth the surface ... the die goes on cross threaded ... :mad:

The die holders I use were made by a former member here, a steel rod gripped in a Jacobs chuck in the tailstock and a machined delrin bar that slides on the rod, with a recess to hold a die at each end. Not cheap, but worth it to me.
Click to expand...
Yup have a set of these myself.
Lin.
 
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