Buffing-- kicked up a notch!

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Texatdurango said:
I really can't answer this because I don't know what kind of swirls you are talking about. Once I get to 1000 grit, the entire blank has already been leveled out and is already starting to take on a sheen. You shouldn't see any swirls at all by then.

Last year I bought a good supply of Novus plastic scratch remover #2 and #3 and need to use it up so I don't always go straight from 1000 grit to buffing. I might just leave it on the lathe and use the #2 and or #3 depending on the blank and the mood I'm in.:)
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We might be talking 2 different things here. I am talking wood with CA applied. Usually I will get a very minute swirl from the applicator of CA. This all comes out with the first step of the micromesh. I thought you were talking about skipping micromesh and going right to the buffing compouind. Am I in left field here and I misunderstood you?? I do that alot:)
 
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jttheclockman said:
We might be talking 2 different things here. I am talking wood with CA applied. Usually I will get a very minute swirl from the applicator of CA. This all comes out with the first step of the micromesh. I thought you were talking about skipping micromesh and going right to the buffing compouind. Am I in left field here and I misunderstood you?? I do that alot:)
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Are you saying that you don't do any sanding other than the micromesh? I believe that george starts earlier, like at 600 grit through 1000 or 1500 grit.
 
BigguyZ said:
1. Also, The buffing doesn't add a film polish, does it? I thought the puprose of buffing was to abraid the surface with a finer pattern and that is what creates the shine. So the finish that's left is a CA surface that's ultra smooth and free of scratches... Is that incorrect?

2. It looks like you have a sewn buff and a loose buff- is that correct? do you find the sewn on better for the regular polish and the loose for the ultra polish?

3. Also, what RPM is your buffer?

Thanks,
Travis
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1. Buffing is nothing more than sanding... really fine sanding or to be more correct... "material removal", and just like using micro mesh, you have to sand with courser grits beforehand! Have you ever used pumice stone or rotten stone on a really nice piece of furniture with a shellac, lacquer or even polyurethane finish? These are fine and very fine powders, when mixed with a bit of liquid parafin and rubbed in with a soft cloth will bring out a shine that is unbelievable!

Buffing is the same thing only the buffing machine replaces the hand rubbing. The compounds are basically the same thing only the powders are mixed with a wax type emulsion to hold the powder or "grit" together in a stick form for easy application to the buffing wheel.

So when you hear someone like me say I buff rather than use micro mesh, I am simply saying I prefer a different type of grit application. To me, buffing a pen is a lot quicker and easier than running through the micro mesh grits and the results are basically the same to me.

2. The wheels are made of different material and the buffs with the looser sewn seams allows the wheel to provide a smoother lapping action with the compound used. The heavier stitched buff provides a firmer base and I use it with the coarser compound to remove fine scratches.

3. Both my buffing machines run at 3500 rpm. I think speed is a personal preference and there is no RIGHT or WRONG speed. While going through school I worked in a music instrument repair shop and in four years I buffed hundreds of band instruments and remember that I preferred a different buffing speed than the other repairman and we both got good results.
 
buffers

Hey George,
Which buffing machines do you use? I'm thinking about getting a dedicated buffer instead of using the jet mini.

Thanks,

Marty
 
ranchonodinero said:
Hey George,
Which buffing machines do you use? I'm thinking about getting a dedicated buffer instead of using the jet mini.

Thanks,

Marty
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Hey Marty, Long time no hear!

If you look at post #23 you will see my machines, one is an old delta 6" bench grinder and the other is a $40 buffer from Harbor Freight.

Just came back inside from doing you know what to a pound of greens! Shop sure smells nice! :biggrin:
 
jleiwig said:
Are you saying that you don't do any sanding other than the micromesh? I believe that george starts earlier, like at 600 grit through 1000 or 1500 grit.
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When I make a wood pen I use my skew and get to the point I use one sandpaper and that is 800 grit. After that 6 coats of thin CA. Sometimes I use the plastic bag trick for the last coat so I do not get the tiny swirl marks you get with a paper towel. Sometimes I am too lazy and just hit with the paper towel. Then it is right to micromesh and a quick hit with each step using water as a lubricant. The first pad of the micromesh system is the critical one. It takes those little swirls right out and its off to the races. I never use sandpaper after I applied CA. If I have to for some unknown reason strip the CA off I use acetone and take it right back to starting blocks.

Then I finish off with a plastic polish.

I will try adding the buffing or I will try eliminating the micromesh and try the buffing or I may eliminate a few pads of the micrmesh I will have to experiment to see what gives the best look.


I do use a buffing system when working with other forms of woodworking. Especially if I am using wooods from the rosewood family. They are tight grained and they sure do polish up nicely. But there is a big difference making a pen with these woods and making clocks and other items that don't get handled as much.
 
Got my buffs and compounds from Caswell today. Not very happy with them. .

The buffs and 2 foot long bars were stuck in a 3x3x12" box. I paid them 12.01 to ship this itty bitty box. The two compounds were wrapped in newspaper, and only after searching for a couple minutes did I find where they had written the product number on the wrapping. If I had not paid attention I would not have known which compound was which. The buffs have wrinkles and creases in them, that I only hope with centrifical force will come out. Overall for darn near $50 worth of stuff I'm very disappointed.
 
jleiwig said:
Got my buffs and compounds from Caswell today. Not very happy with them. .

The buffs and 2 foot long bars were stuck in a 3x3x12" box. I paid them 12.01 to ship this itty bitty box. The two compounds were wrapped in newspaper, and only after searching for a couple minutes did I find where they had written the product number on the wrapping. If I had not paid attention I would not have known which compound was which. The buffs have wrinkles and creases in them, that I only hope with centrifical force will come out. Overall for darn near $50 worth of stuff I'm very disappointed.
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And the best part...

You will not see a difference from the Trip./WR to those. Especially if any steps are skipped. The human eye can only see a certain range of shine and those products are merely for polishing and not buffing and have to be used with the proper wheel to achieve those results.

You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
Just my $.02.
 
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We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point then.

Tripoli is a much coarser compound than either of these compounds IMHO. I've used tripoli before...have you used these exact compounds?

DozerMite said:
And the best part...

You will not see a difference from the Trip./WR to those. Especially if any steps are skipped. The human eye can only see a certain range of shine and those products are merely for polishing and not buffing and have to be used with the proper wheel to achieve those results.

You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
Just my $.02.
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jleiwig said:
Tripoli is a much coarser compound than either of these compounds IMHO. I've used tripoli before...have you used these exact compounds?
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My point exactly. Tripoli is a buffing compound. WR is a buffing/polishing compound. Those are polishing compounds.

I haven't used those exact compounds, but used the same type under another brand name.

I will put my finish with the Trip/WR up against any finish you can accomplish with any material. I will tell you though, I buff and polish daily as part of my job and also do it at home for all the local car guys.
 
Thanks again George, I have seen your pens in person and know that you strive to make the best pen you can everytime, and don't mind helping others do the same.
 
DozerMite said:
My point exactly. Tripoli is a buffing compound. WR is a buffing/polishing compound. Those are polishing compounds.

I haven't used those exact compounds, but used the same type under another brand name.

I will put my finish with the Trip/WR up against any finish you can accomplish with any material. I will tell you though, I buff and polish daily as part of my job and also do it at home for all the local car guys.[/quote]

Dozermite, I don't get it, if you consider yourself a buffing expert, why not share some of your expertise rather than sitting back waiting for others to post in your field of expertise then taking pot shots at what we say?

It's really easy to sit back making comments like... You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
Just my $.02.

If you have a source for quality buffing supplies at half the price Caswell charges with free shipping why not share the information? How much more effort would it take to include a website link?

I assume by trip/wr you are referring to tripoli and white rouge. I'm sure there are different grades of white rouge but all I have ever seen is considered a polishing compound since it has no abrasives so how it using that any different than the polishing compound mentioned above? By your own admission you have not tried the compound sold by Caswell so how can you make comparisons?
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Texatdurango said:
? By your own admission you have not tried the compound sold by Caswell so how can you make comparisons?
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Because it's a lot easier than to be helpful. Trust me...I'm an expert on it George! :wink:

I too buffed daily for a living for a year. Started off in grinding, then moved to the buffing department. Hot crappy work believe me!

That being said, I'm not about to make comparisions to something that I haven't even tried, because that would make me look like a jackass. :biggrin:
 
Texatdurango said:
DozerMite said:
My point exactly. Tripoli is a buffing compound. WR is a buffing/polishing compound. Those are polishing compounds.

I haven't used those exact compounds, but used the same type under another brand name.

I will put my finish with the Trip/WR up against any finish you can accomplish with any material. I will tell you though, I buff and polish daily as part of my job and also do it at home for all the local car guys.[/quote]

Dozermite, I don't get it, if you consider yourself a buffing expert, why not share some of your expertise rather than sitting back waiting for others to post in your field of expertise then taking pot shots at what we say?

It's really easy to sit back making comments like... You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
Just my $.02.

If you have a source for quality buffing supplies at half the price Caswell charges with free shipping why not share the information? How much more effort would it take to include a website link?

I assume by trip/wr you are referring to tripoli and white rouge. I'm sure there are different grades of white rouge but all I have ever seen is considered a polishing compound since it has no abrasives so how it using that any different than the polishing compound mentioned above? By your own admission you have not tried the compound sold by Caswell so how can you make comparisons?
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I HAVE stated this information before, but I'm not in your club, so nobody pays any attention.
A simple search for supplies will give many suppliers for buffing. It's your choice on which to use.
If you read my post, I stated that WR is a buffing/polishing compound. YES, it does have abrasives in it, very fine, but there. Different manufacturers use different particle sizes and a good quality contains uniform sized particles. This alone eliminates those sudden scratches that people think is caused by something else.
I have received a lot of messages about buffing/polishing for more info. I'm glad to help, but you obviously don't need my help.
And I don't claim to be an expert, just experienced.

No, I have not purchased those exact compounds from Caswell, but I have used the same compound from another supplier. I have tried going through the finer compounds and without a light guage or magnification, you will NOT see a difference.

And as for claiming to skip Trip/WR and going to a polishing compound and receiving better results is just not possible when you stop at 800-1000 grit paper. Put your finish up against mine and prove me wrong.

jleiwig said:
Because it's a lot easier than to be helpful. Trust me...I'm an expert on it George! :wink:

I too buffed daily for a living for a year. Started off in grinding, then moved to the buffing department. Hot crappy work believe me!

That all depends on the material and especially the set up.


That being said, I'm not about to make comparisions to something that I haven't even tried, because that would make me look like a jackass. :biggrin:
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No, your comments do that for you.


If anyone would like help with the buffing/polishing process, feel free to PM me. I'm glad to help if I can.
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"I HAVE stated this information before, but I'm not in your club, so nobody pays any attention."

Which club is that? The local IAP chapter or the IAP itself? These are the only "clubs" I belong to pertaining to pen turning!


"If anyone would like help with the buffing/polishing process, feel free to PM me. I'm glad to help if I can."


OK, PM sent!
 
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BigguyZ said:
Really? I thought I remember people saying that a slower speed is better. Otherwise, I have an old HF grinder I can add the buffs to and be done with it...

Also, The buffing doesn't add a film polish, does it? I thought the puprose of buffing was to abraid the surface with a finer pattern and that is what creates the shine. So the finish that's left is a CA surface that's ultra smooth and free of scratches... Is that incorrect?

Thanks,
Travis
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You need to be at a decently fast speed to get a good buff. The important factor is the surface speed. Different diameter buff wheels need to run at different rpm's to end up at similar surface speeds.

You are correct that the buffing smooths the surface, moving from the coarser scratches from sanding to much finer scratches from the buffing. Many buffing compounds are made of fine grit embedded in a soft carrier compound. The abrasion comes from the grit, but usually you get some of the carrier compound left on the pen. This is a problem if you do not completely fill an open pore wood.
I wipe down the buffed blanks to remove the carrier material before I apply my final coat of Ren wax.
 
Dozermite, As far as I can tell you jumped in on the third page of a thread to offer entirely contradictory information. Even I see holes in it.
If there is a half price source, post it, link and all otherwise you are just making unsupported claims.
You claim the difference will not be visible after George has already posted that he has seen a difference while polishing a blank. in other words he buffed a blank that had been buffed with White Diamond and could see the difference as he buffed it with these compounds.
You challenge everything George has had to say in recommending these products and then want to cry you are not a part of the club. I also have no idea what club you are referring to, what half price source you know about, or have any hand on examples or experiences you have to share. It has nothing to do with any club. your credibility does not hold up for me period.
You are also coming across as pretty whiny and pathetic right about now, but that might just be my judgment. And I will add that George has a tendency to irritate me with his comments well above average for members here, So if he has a club I am anything but in it. As far as I can tell your involvement in this conversation wreaks of provoking George. No idea why.
 
Daniel said:
Dozermite, As far as I can tell you jumped in on the third page of a thread to offer entirely contradictory information. Even I see holes in it.
If there is a half price source, post it, link and all otherwise you are just making unsupported claims.
You claim the difference will not be visible after George has already posted that he has seen a difference while polishing a blank. in other words he buffed a blank that had been buffed with White Diamond and could see the difference as he buffed it with these compounds.
You challenge everything George has had to say in recommending these products and then want to cry you are not a part of the club. I also have no idea what club you are referring to, what half price source you know about, or have any hand on examples or experiences you have to share. It has nothing to do with any club. your credibility does not hold up for me period.
You are also coming across as pretty whiny and pathetic right about now, but that might just be my judgment. And I will add that George has a tendency to irritate me with his comments well above average for members here, So if he has a club I am anything but in it. As far as I can tell your involvement in this conversation wreaks of provoking George. No idea why.
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I just checked about 8 pages of his posts and I can find no link, no source, nor anything relating to a company for cheaper buffing supplies than Caswell.

As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, every post I read of his in regards to buffing was really kind of insulting to the original poster. I guess he doesn't like it when someone comes along with a different way of doing things then he does?

I researched for the canton flannel buffs for a bit because when I initially ordered them Caswell was out of stock. They had the cheapest price on the buffs by far. Even Grizzly couldn't touch their price, so I waited until they were in stock again and ordered them.

I will post a full UNBIASED review of the products as soon as I get done testing them. I have a blue lapis trustone pen that I haven't been very happy with the finish on, and it's finished through all the micromesh grits and plastic polished. I plan on giving that a buff this weekend to see if it does indeed give a better shine than what I've done in the past. I will also test a CA finished piece as well. I think it may be a tool handle though, not a pen.
 
Daniel said:
Dozermite, As far as I can tell you jumped in on the third page of a thread to offer entirely contradictory information. Even I see holes in it.
If there is a half price source, post it, link and all otherwise you are just making unsupported claims.
You claim the difference will not be visible after George has already posted that he has seen a difference while polishing a blank. in other words he buffed a blank that had been buffed with White Diamond and could see the difference as he buffed it with these compounds.
You challenge everything George has had to say in recommending these products and then want to cry you are not a part of the club. I also have no idea what club you are referring to, what half price source you know about, or have any hand on examples or experiences you have to share. It has nothing to do with any club. your credibility does not hold up for me period.
You are also coming across as pretty whiny and pathetic right about now, but that might just be my judgment. And I will add that George has a tendency to irritate me with his comments well above average for members here, So if he has a club I am anything but in it. As far as I can tell your involvement in this conversation wreaks of provoking George. No idea why.
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George said it, so it HAS to be TRUE. Sorry, I'm whining again. Guess that makes me pathetic.
As I said above...
YOU put your finish on and I'll put MY finish on with whatever products we choose, and we'll place them side by side. That is MY proof. Nothing more. I'll let my finish speak for itself.
 
George,

Got the Canton flannel buffs and the Plastic and Plastic-glo buffing compounds.

I have been finishing pens with 4 or 5 coats of BLO/CA with no sanding or micro mesh after.

The finish is almost glass-like without any further polishing.

Tried tripoli and white diamond, but they seemed to be a step backward.

Hut Ultra Gloss liquid plastic polish improves the finish somewhat.

Given the above scenerio, would you use the Plastic and then the Plastic-glo buffing compounds instead of the Ultra Gloss, in addition to it, or go right to the Plastic-glo?

Clark
 
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Dozermite, I'll just recap my thoughts then back out of this thread since it's just going down the toilet now!

In the first sentence of the very first post I started out by saying... "If you like your buffing finishes on your CA finished or acrylic pens and are content with the shine they give you then read no further."

This should have given you a clue that I wasn't all about telling people how to do something or force anything on anyone, just suggesting something to look into if they were interested or not happy with their finishes.

In post #8 I again pretty clearly pointed out that this is just how I do something, just another way of getting the job done and that there were compounds out there other than tripoli and white diamond.

I showed a photo of my setup because someone asked about it, not that I was telling anyone what they should do.

I think that's about when you jumped in with...

DozerMite said:
Those grinder guards are a great way to remove those unwanted fingers.
Not to mention not being able to get to the portion of the wheel you should be buffing on. That has got to be uncomfortable and no way to get a good stroke (cut or color) either.
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Your post was meant to take a shot at me clear and simple and added nothing to the conversation. In your next post you did the same thing finishing your post with....

DozerMite said:
You could have went with a different supplier and for about half the price and they offer free shipping.
Just my $.02.
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All that did was to get everyone curious as to where the supplies could be had, to which you have yet to reply, and I think I know why!

So there you have it, if all you want to do is argue, do it with yourself because I'm outta here! I posted this because a few people had expressed interest in finding other buffing materials than were available at Harbor Freight or Woodcraft, not to start silly arguments over who has the best finish on their pens!
 
George, you're absolutely right, I use blue rouge (sounds like a contradiction I know, lol) after white diamond and what a difference! I also got my compounds from Caswell. They send you a bar big enough to last 20 years, lol. Tripoli, white diamond, red rouge and blue rouge can also be found at Lowes or Home Depot or Sears. I've seen them all three places. The rouge compounds are used for buffing soft metals like gold and they work wonders on CA and/or plastic. There's a noticable difference when I go from tripoli to white diamond, but the difference between white diamond and red or blue rouge is just as noticable. I can see it in the reflection of my shop light.
 
babyblues said:
George, you're absolutely right, I use blue rouge (sounds like a contradiction I know, lol) after white diamond and what a difference! I also got my compounds from Caswell. They send you a bar big enough to last 20 years, lol. Tripoli, white diamond, red rouge and blue rouge can also be found at Lowes or Home Depot or Sears. I've seen them all three places. The rouge compounds are used for buffing soft metals like gold and they work wonders on CA and/or plastic. There's a noticable difference when I go from tripoli to white diamond, but the difference between white diamond and red or blue rouge is just as noticable. I can see it in the reflection of my shop light.
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Glad to see you found a better shine! If I didn't have a lifetime supply of compound already I'd probably give the blue rouge a whirl.

Actually, this was the whole point to this thread to begin with, to let folks know that there are finer compounds available than white diamond or white rouge. Most Woodworking stores and vendors carry tripoli and white diamond and leave it at that BUT there are finer compounds that can be used.

Some are called buffing compounds, some are called polishing compounds, some say they are for brass or stainless steel, gold, silver or whatever. But as we pen makers have found, these work well on plastics and CA glue finishes just as nice.

Some try to make the distinction between buffing and polishing but I say it's irrelevant since from grabbing the first piece of 400 or 500 grit sandpaper, your goal is to progressively work up through finer and finer grits, the finer grits being called buffing compounds then on to polishing compounds.
 
George,
Please disregard my earlier post. I jusr read your original post and realize that the ultra is used first! Validates what I discovered while using it.
 
DozerMite said:
YOU put your finish on and I'll put MY finish on with whatever products we choose, and we'll place them side by side. That is MY proof. Nothing more. I'll let my finish speak for itself.
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I have very much enjoyed reading this thread, (except for the recriminations and claims of superiority).

I am always looking for ways to achieve just that liiiiitle bit of extra gloss and *knock your eyes out* shine on both acrylics and CA finished wood, and it seems George may have found one. I thank him for the tip, and plan on going to Caswell and trying their buffs and compounds.

Dozer, respectfully, you seem to have chosen to not heed the words of the very first line in this thread;

"If you like your buffing finishes on your CA finished or acrylic pens and are content with the shine they give you then read no further".

Also, it is a bit <cough cough> odd to claim to have a supplier that sells the same items for half the price of others, yet offer no accompanying link to said supplier.

I look at the hobby of penturning as more of a collaborative -*Let's all help each other along the journey*- type of undertaking than one of --"I'll take tools less involved or expensive than yours and still I will turn out stuff that's better'n what you can do!"-- competition.

Just saying.
 
This has been an interesting read except for the parts where it sounds like 10 year old kids arguing about their toys. A lot of good info and some not-so-good info. Most of my experience has not been gathered by making pens, but by polishing lacquer finishes on bowls, vases, and platters. Most of the professionals I know wet sand with MM and mineral spirits and wind up with automotive polishes and swirl removers. But, it doesn't matter what you apply if you use too much speed or pressure! I don't use CA as a finish because of the fumes and I can get just as good a finish with lacquer by letting it cure. The longer the cure, the harder it gets. Different strokes for different folks.
 
Texatdurango said:
... if you want to kick the gloss up a notch you might consider trying this.....

1. Visit Caswell plating
2. Order a few Canton flannel buffs. These are GOOD, HIGH quality buffs, not your run of the mill Harbor Freight buffs or those found at Lowes or Home Depot.
3. Order a stick of "Plastic" buffing compound (fine)
4. Order a stick of "Plastic-Glo" (ultra fine - dry grade)
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Old thread revival. I finally got a new drill press, do you think I could modify my old Delta 11-950 to be a vertical buffing system using the stuff Texatdurango mentioned? The distance between the chuck and base is only 10 inches. I've seen other threads on dedicated lathe systems but I don't have an extra lathe right now.
 
JamesB said:
Texatdurango said:
... if you want to kick the gloss up a notch you might consider trying this.....

1. Visit Caswell plating
2. Order a few Canton flannel buffs. These are GOOD, HIGH quality buffs, not your run of the mill Harbor Freight buffs or those found at Lowes or Home Depot.
3. Order a stick of "Plastic" buffing compound (fine)
4. Order a stick of "Plastic-Glo" (ultra fine - dry grade)
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Old thread revival. I finally got a new drill press, do you think I could modify my old Delta 11-950 to be a vertical buffing system using the stuff Texatdurango mentioned? The distance between the chuck and base is only 10 inches. I've seen other threads on dedicated lathe systems but I don't have an extra lathe right now.
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Maybe you could modify the 3 on 1 mandrel from Beall systems to work vertically instead of horizontally. Then I think you'd have a good shot at it working. Or even the Barry Gross mandrel might work.
 
Thanks George,and all others who contribute to the freindly,caring,helpfull comunity you have built here.All families have uncomfortable moments.I,m proud of the kindness shown in mediating these times.As I have said,I stumbled on the site and you made me feel at home.Been here several times nearly every day sents.Learning lots.Just wish I could remember all the great stuff you all teach.Thank you one and all.Have a good day.
 
Thanks to Texatdurango for the post. I just finished my first kitless using the information from your other posts. Did I do everything like you would have done it? Probably not but you sure shortened the learning curve. I appreciate you sharing information. The IAP members can choose to use it or ignore it.

Keep it up!
 
What's the "proper" or I suppose optimal way to actually use these caswell buffing sticks?

I'm not sure if I'm being too "wimpy" on the buffing part...
 
avbill said:
As the bluffing wheel is turning you press a small amount into the wheel and your ready to go.

I spend more time on this part [twice as long]
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Are you saying that you spend twice as long applying the compound to the wheel or that you spend twice as long buffing your pen compared to the rest of the construction process?

Thanks Bill. Always nice to hear from you! :)
 
avbill said:
As the bluffing wheel is turning you press a small amount into the wheel and your ready to go.

I spend more time on this part [twice as long]
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Yeah, I like the term "bluffing" wheel, and that is precisely what it is if, you use it without the correct compounds...!

Sorry mate, I couldn't help myself..! MY turn...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George
 
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