August Tap and Die Group Buy

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Quality Pen said:
Received mine today, and I'm a neophyte when it comes to this but I need to ask, is it OK that the TiN coating is not covering the surface? It seems, to my novice mind, that it is an incomplete coating, but I need to ask. Here is a photo: On the larger die the cutting threads are all coated but the outside is not, but on the smaller die the cutting threads at the end are actually not coated. I don't know if this is OK. Thank you.
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What you have here is bad setup in the chamber. Note the absent of the coating on the teeth.

This should not have made it past Q/A inspections at all. You should send this back for a replace and not a recoating.
 
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Really?

edstreet said:
What you have here is bad setup in the chamber. Note the absent of the coating on the teeth.

This should not have made it past Q/A inspections at all. You should end this back for a replace,end and not a recoating.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your insight and participation in this group buy.

I've already spoken to the company about this. I was on it as soon as I read Quality Pens post about it. As is evident from the two posts I made right after his.

I'm not sure what I did, if anything at all, to earn your constant criticism regarding this group buy. You didn't take part in this group buy nor did you add anything other then the criticism. You were pushing everyone to go for the TiN coating like you get royalties off it. Yet, nothing was ever mentioned about the possibility of the coating not covering the threads effectively on the smaller sizes.

This IS my first group buy and no it didn't go perfectly. Next time I plan to help everyone out by doing a group buy I'll have to remember this ED-ucation.
 
To all of those who DID participate in this group buy, I'd like to apologize for my last post. I didn't mean to sound like a jerk to any of you.
 
I checked my set and the missing coating is where they supported the dies. Mine are fully coated on the threads so the rest is just cosmetic and of no consequence. I need functional tools not pretty ones.
Have you had a response from Tapco?
 
Truth be known, the TiN is mostly for edge retention, corrosion resistance and cosmetic appearance. The thickness is only 20 millionths of an inch. Since it's on the cutting edges and I have no care about corrosion on the face, I doubt any machinist would get very upset about the lack of coating on the face of my set.
I'm delighted with my set so I'll just sign off. I think your group buy went well enough.
 
whteglve said:
edstreet said:
What you have here is bad setup in the chamber. Note the absent of the coating on the teeth.

This should not have made it past Q/A inspections at all. You should end this back for a replace,end and not a recoating.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your insight and participation in this group buy.

I've already spoken to the company about this. I was on it as soon as I read Quality Pens post about it. As is evident from the two posts I made right after his.

I'm not sure what I did, if anything at all, to earn your constant criticism regarding this group buy. You didn't take part in this group buy nor did you add anything other then the criticism. You were pushing everyone to go for the TiN coating like you get royalties off it. Yet, nothing was ever mentioned about the possibility of the coating not covering the threads effectively on the smaller sizes.

This IS my first group buy and no it didn't go perfectly. Next time I plan to help everyone out by doing a group buy I'll have to remember this ED-ucation.
Click to expand...


Yes it was I who brought up the TIN coating in the first place and me who mentioned all the benefits of it. I still side with it being worthwhile for the cost involved.

There has been no criticism towards you in any shape nor form. In fact I did not read your reply when I made that post. The Q/A I mentioned was from the manufacture and not you. Also the manufacture outsources treatment so it should have been picked up on not one but TWO Q/A check points.

Yes coating is critical on the cutting edges but the non-edges it's more cosmetic. the photo shown is clearly lacking treatment in the cutting edges.
 
Got my shipment of 2 tap/die sets today ... West Coast of Canada. The taps are absolutely perfectly coated; the cutting teeth of the dies are also perfectly coated and the few spots of missed coating on the die faces/edges are of no functional concern whatsoever. I am really happy with the look of these products that arrived today on my birthday !!! :):):)

Thank you John (whteglve) for the effort and time you put in to coordinating this group purchase ... very much appreciated.

Now, I am itching to try these out .... ! Please .....

Can someone tell me the correct hole size to drill for the 14/.8 and 12/.8 dbl start taps ?

And also the correct cylinder diameter to turn for the 14/.8 and 12/.8 dbl start dies ?

Thanks in advance. Maybe that info is already available on here somewhere

Thanks again
 
Just got my set in Toronto! Looks just fine to my (novice) eyes.
Thanks again John for all the hard work you put into this group buy. I would never have gotten such a good deal without an opportunity like this. I'm looking forward to taking the next steps in my pen making.
 
edstreet said:
I thought I had posted that info previously. Will look on my pc when I get home tonight and post it. I have all that data.
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Thanks, Ed. I'll check in this thread and elsewhere here too.

But if you have the info handy and if it's no trouble to look it up and send it I would greatly appreciate that. Of course, I can make some close guesses by measuring the taps & dies but I'd prefer to work to the official numbers

Cheers
 
edstreet said:
Don't forget. Titanium coating the die is imperative as they can not be sharpened and TiN coating will double (or more) the life span (assuming it's not misused). The taps can be resharpened and recommended TiN coated but it's not critical like the die is.

TiN makes the tap/die cut smoother, colder and more efficient. Cutting fluid that matches the material is also a must. When you get the tap and die they need to be 'set', tempered If you will for best results.


0.8 pitch equates to 31.75 threads per inch.
m12 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.457'' or 29/64" or 11.6mm
m14 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.536'' or 35/64 or 13.6mm

Die tenon size will have to be measured directly from the die but estimated size is 12.8mm or 1/2" and 14.8mm or 37/64".
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Shameless bump.
 
edstreet said:
edstreet said:
Don't forget. Titanium coating the die is imperative as they can not be sharpened and TiN coating will double (or more) the life span (assuming it's not misused). The taps can be resharpened and recommended TiN coated but it's not critical like the die is.

TiN makes the tap/die cut smoother, colder and more efficient. Cutting fluid that matches the material is also a must. When you get the tap and die they need to be 'set', tempered If you will for best results.


0.8 pitch equates to 31.75 threads per inch.
m12 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.457'' or 29/64" or 11.6mm
m14 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.536'' or 35/64 or 13.6mm

Die tenon size will have to be measured directly from the die but estimated size is 12.8mm or 1/2" and 14.8mm or 37/64".
Click to expand...



Shameless bump.
Click to expand...

Ed, I'm a bit confused by the numbers you've given. My understanding could well be wrong, but here's what stood out for me:

If I use a 13.6mm drill followed by a 14mm tap, there can only be 0.2mm thread depth in that threaded hole. That does not feel right for a 0.8mm pitch tap. I would have expected to use a drill bit 13.2mm (14mm minus the pitch).

Conversely, if I'm about to put a 14mm die on a 14.8mm diameter tenon, it will have to remove the entire 0.8mm surplus, in addition to the depth of the threads that it's cutting. I would have expected to make a tenon that is 14mm (the major diameter after cutting with a 14mm x 0.8 die).

Am I missing something?
 
duncsuss said:
edstreet said:
edstreet said:
Don't forget. Titanium coating the die is imperative as they can not be sharpened and TiN coating will double (or more) the life span (assuming it's not misused). The taps can be resharpened and recommended TiN coated but it's not critical like the die is.

TiN makes the tap/die cut smoother, colder and more efficient. Cutting fluid that matches the material is also a must. When you get the tap and die they need to be 'set', tempered If you will for best results.


0.8 pitch equates to 31.75 threads per inch.
m12 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.457'' or 29/64" or 11.6mm
m14 x 0.8 tap drill size is 0.536'' or 35/64 or 13.6mm

Die tenon size will have to be measured directly from the die but estimated size is 12.8mm or 1/2" and 14.8mm or 37/64".
Click to expand...



Shameless bump.
Click to expand...

Ed, I'm a bit confused by the numbers you've given. My understanding could well be wrong, but here's what stood out for me:

If I use a 13.6mm drill followed by a 14mm tap, there can only be 0.2mm thread depth in that threaded hole. That does not feel right for a 0.8mm pitch tap. I would have expected to use a drill bit 13.2mm (14mm minus the pitch).

Conversely, if I'm about to put a 14mm die on a 14.8mm diameter tenon, it will have to remove the entire 0.8mm surplus, in addition to the depth of the threads that it's cutting. I would have expected to make a tenon that is 14mm (the major diameter after cutting with a 14mm x 0.8 die).

Am I missing something?
Click to expand...


The difference being in form vs cut taping. I just did a spot check and the numbers I listed above is for form taping.

Truth be known in most of our material what really happens is a variety of both.


A quick spot check reveals the following:

Form tap for a M14 x 0.8 with 70% thread you need a 13.619mm or 0.536" drill bit.

Cut tap for a M14 x 0.8 with 70% threads you need a 13.273mm or a 0.523" drill bit.
 
Interesting -- I didn't even know there were two different types of tap :rolleyes:

The 13.273mm value for drilling fits perfectly with what I'd been doing: major diameter minus pitch would be 100%, so increase the drill size a smidge to get to a 70% thread. (Or in my case, rely on the tailstock not being perfectly aligned with the headstock to get that extra couple of thou.)
 
Softer material typically can be formed. I,e. Ebonite, plastics, these types will yield stronger threads if the can be formed vs cut. As in shaped/formed from existing material. The sweet spot when threading any given material is when you have the perfect balance between the two. I.e. Ebonite loves to move when you thread it. By molding it then cutting it you have stronger threads than if that by just pure cutting.


Hard material I.e. Brass works poorly when forming threads and needs to be cut. This is a true test of the life span of the tap/die. Also the very reason taps must be sharpened over time.
 
edstreet said:
Softer material typically can be formed. I,e. Ebonite, plastics, these types will yield stronger threads if the can be formed vs cut. As in shaped/formed from existing material. The sweet spot when threading any given material is when you have the perfect balance between the two. I.e. Ebonite loves to move when you thread it. By molding it then cutting it you have stronger threads than if that by just pure cutting.
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Thanks. Does this mean that the same tap can be used for both forming and cutting threads, or are the "leading edges" shaped differently?
 
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There is a difference. Left is a cutting tap, right is a forming tap.

Technically the cutting tap when used on material that is flexible does both cut and form. The cutting edge does cut but also compresses the material, after the cut it has a bounce back effect and the longer grooves of the tap helps shape and form it. This is why the die is more difficult to use in some materials as the die has less forming threads and relies more on cutting action.
 

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Drill tap (imperial) = Major - (0.01299 * % treads) / TPI

Drill tap (metric) = Major - (% threads * pitch) / 76.98

The M14 x 0.8 case

drill size => 14 - (70 * 0.8) / 76.98 = 13.27254 mm
divide by 25.4 for inches = 0.522541"
on the drill charts we see 0.5156 is 33/64 (equal to a 13mm)


----

The M12 x 0.8 case
drill size => 13 - (70 * 0.8) / 76.98 = 11.27254 mm
divide by 25.4 for inches = 0.443801"
on the drill charts we see 0.4375 is 7/16 (equal to 11.11mm)


attachment.php


The above is the cutting formula


p.s. in case anyone cares, yes I was wrong and yes I corrected myself :)
 

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Ed -- thanks for introducing me to the concept of thread forming versus cutting (versus the combination of both.)

I'm fairly certain my MT2 drill chuck is off-center enough to provide at least an extra 0.073mm when I use a 13.2mm drill bit :biggrin:

Would it be correct to say that a #2 (plug) tap tends more towards cutting than a #1 (taper) tap?
 
The chamfer styles (taper, plug, bottom, semi bottom, modified bottom and others) has a direct and profound impact on how, when, where and why the tap cuts the material.

The lead is the only part of the tap that cuts threads. The longer the lead, the more tapped holes the tap can produce. For this reason it's important to apply the proper length tap lead to the part being tapped.

Because the lead is the only part of the tap that cuts, this feature gives the tap its sharpness so it is very important for the lead to be ground properly, concentric, with equal relief, properly timed to each flute.
 
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Hey Ed! I just want to apologize to you in front of everyone, kind of, for my ugly and uncalled for post the other day. I shouldn't have acted like that. Please accept my honest and sincere apology.
 
Some characters in your post are not coming through, to me at least .... I presume that quotes were intended

edstreet said:
The chamfer styles (taper, plug, bottom, semi bottom, modified bottom and others) has a direct and profound impact on how, when, where and why the tap cuts the material.

The lead is the only part of the tap that “cuts” threads. The longer the lead, the more tapped holes the tap can produce. For this reason it’s important to apply the proper length tap lead to the part being tapped.

Because the lead is the only part of the tap that cuts, this feature gives the tap its “sharpness” so it is very important for the lead to be ground properly, concentric, with equal relief, properly timed to each flute.
Click to expand...
 
I need to get a yay or nay count from those that ordered an M12 die the TiN coating. If the cutting edges aren't coated please let me know. I'm going back and forth with the vendor on how to fix this problem. We might be able to get them recoated, but I'm NOT making any promises.

Please just post "Complete" or "Incomplete".
 
I have received my 14mm tap and die.
Neither of them appear to have any coating on them at all.

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