Arizona Silhouette

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I'm with Jeff on this: I didn't see a personal attack at all. A question was asked about Arizona Silhouette. Those in the know answered the question with the plain and simple facts.

More facts: Some have indicated that they will not deal with him anymore; for this reason or another one. Curtis indicated that they are not asking anyone to refrain from dealing with Bill - he did not leave on bad terms. He left on good terms, for his own reasons, apparently.

So there seems to be no personal attacks. Some have stated that Bill is their friend, or a good supplier, and will continue to use him as such...others have said that they will not...it appears to be a very civil discussion.

If you don't like negative comments, perhaps one had best stay away from Arizona Silhouette threads; like it or not, Bill apparently has a cantankerous approach that seeds negative comments about his personality and/or business practices...he also gets high praise from others, so it really depends what side of the fence you are on!

For me, it doesn't matter at all, as Bill has always refused to ship up here, so I have no personal dealings with him one way or another. Luckily, there are some very generous suppliers who help us "internationals" out!

Call it a pile-on if you like...but to me, it's a discussion.
 
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It is fine to have all these discussions but I know first hand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of "discussions" similar to this one. Believe me I have had the same response as others when dealing with AS by phone.
I my case ("Constant pile on") many/most made it right on what was said but all comments will stay on the web forever for anyone to find.
Know this old saying? " THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD"
If this was a sword or gun forum, you just imagine?
 
Want someone to beat up on? How about PSI? It has been over 2 weeks since I ordered a Barracuda Chuck and when I call and ask, they tell me it was shipped but have no tracking numbers. UPS has no record when I call them. They must have taped it to a turtle and pointed him at Texas. I've got about $300 in this order (with some other stuff) and I really need that chuck.

I have never had this problem with AS. They ship immediately but this long delay with PSI is the norm. I have always had to wait for their stuff. Let's beat up on them. Come on, pile on!!!! Maybe they will hear us. But probably not!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Dear IAP,
You know, I spent the whole day in the shop yesterday and it was so relaxing...................and enjoyable! :biggrin:

Mick

PS ...Come on guys lets get back on track here!
 
maxwell_smart007 said:
Trade Secret for Wood....no idea what it is though - wax of some sort?
Click to expand...

TSW is yet another touchy subject around the forum. If you really don't know what TSW is, do an IAP search on TSW and you will find that there are probably as many threads about it as there are threads about Arizona Silhoutte! And there really shouldn't be half as many of either! :eek:

I'm with Mick, time to head out to the shop for the rest of the day.
 
maxwell_smart007 said:
I'm with Jeff on this: I didn't see a personal attack at all. A question was asked about Arizona Silhouette. Those in the know answered the question with the plain and simple facts.

More facts: Some have indicated that they will not deal with him anymore; for this reason or another one. Curtis indicated that they are not asking anyone to refrain from dealing with Bill - he did not leave on bad terms. He left on good terms, for his own reasons, apparently.

So there seems to be no personal attacks. Some have stated that Bill is their friend, or a good supplier, and will continue to use him as such...others have said that they will not...it appears to be a very civil discussion.

If you don't like negative comments, perhaps one had best stay away from Arizona Silhouette threads; like it or not, Bill apparently has a cantankerous approach that seeds negative comments about his personality and/or business practices...he also gets high praise from others, so it really depends what side of the fence you are on!

For me, it doesn't matter at all, as Bill has always refused to ship up here, so I have no personal dealings with him one way or another. Luckily, there are some very generous suppliers who help us "internationals" out!

Call it a pile-on if you like...but to me, it's a discussion.
Click to expand...

You know, Andrew, this is one of the most thoughtful posts I've read on this subject or any here on IAP. It sees the big picture, it allows for discussion and even disagreement in a thoughtful way, and it really amplifies what Jeff said.

Very good job, my friend! I think there's a future Prime Minister or at least Cabinet Member here on IAP!!! You write very well and should write more.

Thanks,
Dale
 
maxwell_smart007 said:
Trade Secret for Wood....no idea what it is though - wax of some sort?
Click to expand...

From October 2004:

Here's my two cents on Renaissance Wax and the differences between it and TSW-1121.

Right off let me start by saying that I have used Renaissance Wax on at least 30 pens. I think it is a great product. It imparts a tremendous gloss when applied correctly. It adds a layer of protection to both the finish of the wood and the finish of the metal parts. From the research I've been able to do, it is a microcrystalline polymer. What does that mean? It means it's a plastic coating. The fact that it's microcrystalline means that it has polishing capabilities and that it will impart a hi-gloss.

When I was working on TSW-1121, I was looking for a more "controllable" finish/polish. The pure white carnauba was key for me in that it could be lightly hand-buffed for a natural-to-satin finish, or it could be vigorously hand- or machine-buffed for a glass-like finish. I then looked for a way to soften the product so you wouldn't be sticking a hard bar of wax against a well-sanded piece of soft wood, only to find that it left new "marks" to be re-sanded. The third component needed was a polymer to protectively coat the metal components. I have kept this additive to extremely low levels in order to make sure that I was not plastic coating the wood. I also worked very hard to find a polymer that had no negative information from EPA. The final thing was to impart a light scent that was pleasant to work with. Due to the fact that there is only a tiny amount of polymer in the product, I did not have to overcome the "-ene" smell associated with Renaisance Wax.

That being said, I believe that TSW-1121 is a much harder finish, providing a higher level of protection than Renaissance Wax. I also believe that it allows the craftsman much more leeway in creating the level of gloss he or she desires. Finally, the scent is a whole lot easier on the nose.

As a final thought for this post, I am conducting this test, wholly at my expense, because I do not want to make claims based on my intent or my experience. I expect you testers out there to throw everything you can at it. If it stands up to your worst, then it just may be a better product than Renaissance Wax. If it doesn't, I'll be working on TSW-1122!
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TSW-1121 became "President's Choice" and later became TSW. I hope this helps.
 
not a pile on.....only a discussion....i stand corrected. i just seemed kind of harsh to me. i guess the current recession makes my 2 cents worth only a penny. and just to be clear, i like my dealings with AS. they have been helpful on many occasions. and thanks for the advice on not watching AW threads but i will anyway. wife says i'm difficult....i think she's right!
have a good one..bear
 
OldWrangler said:
Want someone to beat up on? How about PSI? It has been over 2 weeks since I ordered a Barracuda Chuck and when I call and ask, they tell me it was shipped but have no tracking numbers. UPS has no record when I call them. They must have taped it to a turtle and pointed him at Texas. I've got about $300 in this order (with some other stuff) and I really need that chuck.

I have never had this problem with AS. They ship immediately but this long delay with PSI is the norm. I have always had to wait for their stuff. Let's beat up on them. Come on, pile on!!!! Maybe they will hear us. But probably not!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Yours is not the first time I've heard people say PSI shipping is slow, yet I've always had very good luck with their shipping. I live in the sticks about 12 miles south of nowhere and seem to get all my orders pretty much on time. 'course I am closer to PA than you are and it's probably further across Texas than it is from PA to TX....
(While I was in Houston I used to get calls from my agents in Europe to ask if I delivered to El Paso... I looked it up one day, Los Angeles was closer to El Paso than Houston was)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldWrangler
Want someone to beat up on? How about PSI? It has been over 2 weeks since I ordered a Barracuda Chuck and when I call and ask, they tell me it was shipped but have no tracking numbers. UPS has no record when I call them. They must have taped it to a turtle and pointed him at Texas. I've got about $300 in this order (with some other stuff) and I really need that chuck.

I have never had this problem with AS. They ship immediately but this long delay with PSI is the norm. I have always had to wait for their stuff. Let's beat up on them. Come on, pile on!!!! Maybe they will hear us. But probably not!!!!!!!!!!!!


ozmandus said:
Yours is not the first time I've heard people say PSI shipping is slow, yet I've always had very good luck with their shipping. I live in the sticks about 12 miles south of nowhere and seem to get all my orders pretty much on time. 'course I am closer to PA than you are and it's probably further across Texas than it is from PA to TX....
(While I was in Houston I used to get calls from my agents in Europe to ask if I delivered to El Paso... I looked it up one day, Los Angeles was closer to El Paso than Houston was)
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Like many people say, if we eliminated a lot of the empty desert in Texas, it would be a nice state! :biggrin::tongue::biggrin:
 
Constant Laubscher said:
It is fine to have all these discussions but I know first hand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of "discussions" similar to this one. Believe me I have had the same response as others when dealing with AS by phone.
I my case ("Constant pile on") many/most made it right on what was said but all comments will stay on the web forever for anyone to find.
Know this old saying? " THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD"
If this was a sword or gun forum, you just imagine?
Click to expand...

Constant,

If you sell a product, you should be willing to accept evaluations and comments. If someone deals with you and doesn't like it, they have every right to say so. That's not a pile-on, it's not a "slam," it's just one member trying to help another member avoid a bad situation. I mean this in the abstract, not directly to you personally, but rather in response to your statement. If I say "Constant is an idiot," that's a slam and a personal attack. If I say "I bought a kit from Constant and I found him to be a real pain in the butt," that goes with the territory.

On a different note, Jeff is absolutely, 100% correct: just because someone disagrees with you, and says so, doesn't make it a pile on or an attack.

Edit to add: I want to emphasize that I am not saying or implying anything negative about Constant's business practices, just adding to the discussion about pile-ons.
 
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This thread has had the crap beat out of it, but I have to agree completely with what Keith said. I've been biting my tongue about what you've said in this thread, Constant. The 2 situations aren't even close in comparison. The gripes I've had with Bill, while not really major, have been actual, verifiable, and real. He sometimes seems to go out of his way to be abrasive, and it's ongoing. Example: On his site right now, he says "Shipping is not free. You'll be charged for actual shipping" or something very close to that effect. No s**t, I was stupid enough to think he would ship stuff for free. You don't find that kind of statement on most business communications. It's a small window into how he sees his customers. I've had another situation where he could have taken care of something without making me dance to his tune, but that's not important here. Andrew said it best, more than a few people don't like the way he does things, more than a few people do. And my sense is he doesn't give a flying rip either way. And if he wants to get his nose out of joint and leave, who cares, one way or the other? It's about choices, from all sides, and it's still a semi-free country...

Your situation was a perceived wrong that clearly got out of control, that most made right, and while the end result may not have been pleasant it does happen, unfortunately. But the situations are not even close to the same. Yours is over and done with. Bill's is ongoing, by his choices and intent and temperment. Lumping Mr. Baumbeck's "choices" for the way he does his business in with yours is a big mistake, because there is zero similarity as far as basis goes.

Just my thunks,
Dale
 
mick said:
Dear IAP,
You know, I spent the whole day in the shop yesterday and it was so relaxing...................and enjoyable! :biggrin:

Mick

PS ...Come on guys lets get back on track here!
Click to expand...

WOW!...Still going on.....I've had a LOT of shop time .....productive shop time , but you guys feel free to carry on. :biggrin:
 
Hey, I'd LOVE to be able to have productive shop time!!!! See my thread about being "Bored". That Oneway SD is looking really good right now...

Dale
 
spiritwoodturner said:
This thread has had the crap beat out of it, but I have to agree completely with what Keith said. I've been biting my tongue about what you've said in this thread, Constant. The 2 situations aren't even close in comparison. The gripes I've had with Bill, while not really major, have been actual, verifiable, and real. He sometimes seems to go out of his way to be abrasive, and it's ongoing. Example: On his site right now, he says "Shipping is not free. You'll be charged for actual shipping" or something very close to that effect. No s**t, I was stupid enough to think he would ship stuff for free. You don't find that kind of statement on most business communications. It's a small window into how he sees his customers. I've had another situation where he could have taken care of something without making me dance to his tune, but that's not important here. Andrew said it best, more than a few people don't like the way he does things, more than a few people do. And my sense is he doesn't give a flying rip either way. And if he wants to get his nose out of joint and leave, who cares, one way or the other? It's about choices, from all sides, and it's still a semi-free country...
Click to expand...

The "Shipping is not free." comment could be taken two ways. First would be that Bill is being contentious. Second would be to avoid confusion. When you get the e-mail confirming your order, the shipping total is not on it. He waits to calculate shipping until he knows the ACTUAL shipping charge. I can imagine that he's had quite a few people call him wondering why the final charge on their card or paypal or whatever come through higher than the invoice they received through e-mail. Do you think that maybe he's just trying to avoid having to take time to explain that? From what I can gather, he's a busy man, so much so that he doesn't even have time to do turning of his own anymore. He's really just trying to be fair and I don't see what's so offensive about that. I can honestly say that I don't know any other online vendors that only charge for actual shipping aside from the good people here at IAP. There is ALWAYS a handling charge of some sort. Not with Bill.

Since we're talking about differences here, both personal and factual, let's talk about what people are really bent out of shape about. Because Bill's not the one bent out of shape. Nothing was said about his reasons for canceling his membership here, so you assume it's because he's the one bent out of shape? Bill's personality may come off to you and others as abrasive, but I get the feeling that's just the way he comes off. There's a difference between someone who is just a jerk and someone who might not say something with just the right tone of voice or in just the right words. The fact that many people find him abrasive is meaningless because there are just as many people, probably more, that don't.

If you have a problem with the way he does BUSINESS, than fine, voice that concern. But it seems that you just have a problem with the way he comes off in conversation, which is highly subjective.

I'm just saying.
 
Weelllll, since you are talking facts here...

You didn't read my entire post. I'm talking about actual incidents, not just his mannerisms. I am not going to go into detail because it doesn't matter. That's been beaten to death here, so I'm moving on. But know my experience is far from "subjective". But how many people here or anywhere are stupid enough to think shipping is free, from anyone? He obviously thinks otherwise.

And you are dead wrong about him being the only one that doesn't charge a handling fee. Craft Supplies not only does not charge a handling fee of any kind, this month they are trying out a "Super Saver" flat shipping fee of 5 bucks. For everything. Try that at AS...

And I really don't care one way or another on this point, but any logical person would figure he got upset by being "bashed" here (it's not bashing, Bill, feedback is GOLD) and packed up his tent and left. Come on, your contention is he got bullied by someone and left for his own safety, and he's not upset about a single thing? Uh, OK, but my guess is something different, but I'll leave it at that because it's immaterial. But when I leave something and take my support with with me, generally it's because I'm not too happy about something. But that's just me.

Your argument tries to insert that probably more people don't find him abrasive than do, and that those who do are meaningless. Sorry, we're just as "meaningless" as the pro side. I'll take Jeff's and Andrew's assertions that it's probably about 50-50 and leave it at that.

Dale

Dale
 
spiritwoodturner said:
Your argument tries to insert that probably more people don't find him abrasive than do, and that those who do are meaningless.
Dale
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Hey, I'll just set up a poll and have the members vote on :

SURLY BB:mad: vs. NON-SURLY BB:)

Naw, I'll stay out of this discussion and just "observe" from the land to where he doesn't ship.:wink:
 
PR_Princess said:
No pictures...didn't happen. :biggrin:
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If I had a nickle for every time a woman told me that...



spiritwoodturner said:
Craft Supplies not only does not charge a handling fee of any kind, this month they are trying out a "Super Saver" flat shipping fee of 5 bucks.
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Well, in BB's defense, his delivery time is probably half of what CSUSA's is and normally cheaper to boot. I've also been annoyed by BB's attitude, but that doesn't negate that the shipping is dang quick.
 
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beck3906 said:
Empty desert?

Better known as a buffer zone.

Gotta go a long way to get to the good stuff. :)
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HEY... i was born and raised in that "buffer zone" and you know what? YOU'RE RIGHT!! thats why i moved away soon as i could. and it only took 50 years. almost as slow as PSI shipping policys.
 
I have never bought anything from BB/AS

Then again, I have never bought anything from CSUSA either.

In fact, I have only bought from LV, WWW, and PSI. Oh, and some members here.

So, I guess I have nothing to contribute to this thread (sigh) ....

Well, I can say that I've never had any problems with BB/AS (or CSUSA, et. al.)

;)

Cheers!

Gary
 
Well, I have been on both ends of the spectrum with Bill and AS - having said that, I have to say I'm very sorry Bill felt strong enough to discontinue his membership with this group. And I do wish him well.

It will in no way effect the business I will send his way in the future. I can be pretty surley all by myself. Why should I "take it out on him" when there are products he carries I may use sometime in the future.
 
OK, I'm going to post one more time, then I'm just going to leave it be.


spiritwoodturner said:
Weelllll, since you are talking facts here...

You didn't read my entire post. I'm talking about actual incidents, not just his mannerisms. I am not going to go into detail because it doesn't matter. That's been beaten to death here, so I'm moving on. But know my experience is far from "subjective". But how many people here or anywhere are stupid enough to think shipping is free, from anyone? He obviously thinks otherwise.
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Subjective: "existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought." Your experiences are what they are, but your conclusion as a result is subjective. It says more about you than it does about the thing you've drawn a conclusion about. You obviously don't like the guy, so you're assuming the worst. That's subjective. Even my opinion is subjective, that's why they call it an OPINION. Have you even asked him personally about this? Until you have, you're right, the details as you have laid them out don't matter. There's nothing "logical" about coming to a conclusion when all you have to go on is your own assumption. So far, you're the only one I've seen who's worried that he thinks you're stupid.

spiritwoodturner said:
And you are dead wrong about him being the only one that doesn't charge a handling fee. Craft Supplies not only does not charge a handling fee of any kind, this month they are trying out a "Super Saver" flat shipping fee of 5 bucks. For everything. Try that at AS...
Click to expand...

OK, you got me, he's not the only one. Let me rephrase. All I know is that I pay more for shipping with CSUSA and less with AS and I ALWAYS receive my shipment quicker from AS. Bill tries to SAVE YOU MONEY on shipping, which really is going above and beyond because he could just charge you a set rate for shipping like CSUSA and not have to deal with the added paperwork. CSUSA charges me the same to ship one pen kit as it does 20. And one month is hardly a comparison to the years that Bill has been saving us money on shipping. I don't have to try some silly "Super Saver" gimmick with AS because he gives it to me straight.

spiritwoodturner said:
And I really don't care one way or another on this point, but any logical person would figure he got upset by being "bashed" here (it's not bashing, Bill, feedback is GOLD) and packed up his tent and left. Come on, your contention is he got bullied by someone and left for his own safety, and he's not upset about a single thing? Uh, OK, but my guess is something different, but I'll leave it at that because it's immaterial. But when I leave something and take my support with with me, generally it's because I'm not too happy about something. But that's just me.
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NO ONE KNOWS WHAT BILL'S REASONS FOR LEAVING WERE!!! I never said that he got bullied and left for his own safety and I didn't insinuate that either. I'm pretty sure that if Bill was the blowhard that you're convinced he is, he wouldn't have hesitated to let us know, in no uncertain terms, why he was leaving. The fact that he chose to do this in private would suggest to me that he didn't want to make a big deal out of it. End of story. Maybe, and here's an idea, he didn't want people thinking it was something negative by making a public scene. It's obvious that you're not too happy about something, but it seems to me that you're blowing this "shipping isn't free" thing a bit out of proportion and taking it way out of context. That doesn't help anyone. Sure, you have the right to take your business elsewhere, but Bill has the right not to waste time worrying about it.

spiritwoodturner said:
Your argument tries to insert that probably more people don't find him abrasive than do, and that those who do are meaningless. Sorry, we're just as "meaningless" as the pro side. I'll take Jeff's and Andrew's assertions that it's probably about 50-50 and leave it at that.
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You're putting words in my mouth. I did not say that those who find him abrasive are meaningless. Let me clarify. There are people on both sides of the fence here. If those on one side ignore the fact that there are indeed people on the other, chances are that there's going to be friction.
 
I just needed something that I ordered from Bill, so I pulled everything out of the box. Now..back when I ordered the stuff, in the comment section when I paid, I said, "send me some of that sunshine up here to Michigan." As I unloaded the box onto the table, I noticed a sun in the box. He, or someone there actually took the time to draw a sun and color it with a big smiley face in the center! That ole curmudgeon has quite a fine sense of humor. Made me smile.
 
Well, I wasn't going to post to this thread but...

I have had several orders with Bill at AS. I comply with his terms, after all it is his business, and have never had any problems. I feel the prices are fair, the selection is good, shipping is reasonable and always very fast.

Whether Bill is abrasive or has other personality characteristics attributed to him, I don't know. Having owned a retail business for over 30 years I do agree that you should try to satisfy the customer. Unfortunately this is not always possible. Some people just simply can't be happy unless things are done their way. My belief is they should start their own business and then they could "have it their way". Perhaps Bill has been around long enough and is comfortable enough with his business that he doesn't have to put up with the crap some people are always willing to shovel your way. More power to him.

If you like his products and are willing to comply with his terms, then do business with him. If not, then don't. It is as simple as that.

My opinion only of course.
 
Boy, did any of you see Tiger get whupped by that little South African guy yesterday?...
 
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