AFFORDABLE HIGH END KITS

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wood-of-1kind

wood-of-1kind

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As I've shared the news with IAP members, I'm trying to source 'certain' pens kits from China. The samples that I received were for slimlines and although the pricing is very good it still is not substantially better than what our current suppliers are selling for.

Here's a thought, if I persue the 'higher' end kits such as the Emperor, Majestic, Imperial or Lotus. Would there be enough interest to do a large GROUP BUY? These pen kits would be sligthly 'altered' to avoid copyright/patents that may(?) be in place. Nothing has been firmed up yet but I'm soliciting comments good/bad in regards to this proposal.

Feel free to make you views known. I for one would like to go to the next level and try out the upper scale kits but the high prices have lowered both my enthusiasm and pocketbook to the point of extinction. Of the four choices, are there any that you would like to try out more than another?

Your comment(s) are appreciated and if you do not wish to post directly to this topic you are encouraged to e-mail me direct.

-Peter-:)
 
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Peter,
While those kits are all nice and people are certainly selling them, I am not a fan of any of them, just too much "bling" for me. If they would have to be redesigned anyway, why not something completely different, maybe Art Deco instead of oriental? Then it would really be unique. BTW, I really admire you for pursuing this.
 
Originally posted by gerryr
<br />Peter,
If they would have to be redesigned anyway, why not something completely different, maybe Art Deco instead of oriental?
Click to expand...

I am open to any design possibilities. Anyone out there that has a design on paper and wouldn't mind sharing, I can approach the manufacturer and see if it can become a reality.

Thanks for the encouragement and ideas Gerry.

-Peter-
 
The price would have to be substantially lower to interest me. At $40-$50 per kit, I have never bought any and don't have immediate plans to. Reselling such high priced pens could be problematic and investing so much money not wise. If you can get the price in reason while maintaining quality, then I would be interested.
 
I agree with Gerry on the "bling" opinion, however, if you found a comparable version of the Statesman and Gentlemans in both full size and Jr. I would be interested.

As far as a new design goes, I have read posts about the Cigar and that some do not like the clip. Maybe a Cigar with a nicer clip would work. Or a slightly smaller cigar for those who do not like that large of a pen.

Just me thoughts.
 
I think the statesman design is a great start.

Gold centerband with some detail, not oriental-looking.

These could be sold in greater quantities (in my backyard) than the "bling things". (Emperor and other embellished kits).

If the "price is right," I could buy these in hundred quantities and hope to sell them in the $75 retail range. FWIW
 
Something I would like to see and have had plenty of requests for would be a FP/RB similar in design to the Baron/Jr. Gent but substantially thinner. I have a few Flattop Americans but, not only do I not like them, customers don't seem to like them either. A Baron about 2/3 the diameter of the current one would be a great seller. Same would probably be true for the Jr. Statesman. I've had a lot of women say they love the pen, but it's just too fat.

Also, the PK-Montpar with a slightly different clip, a black finial and good platings would be wonderful.
 
I would have to agree with Gerry, Customers really like the look of the high quality pens but almost always say they are just too big.
 
Question:

How much thinner can the fountain pens be, and still accept an ink refill?

I don't know the answer, but I suspect the refill fits tightly now.

OR is there a different refill available you would like to use???
 
Ed,
The FP cartridges and converters are only about 1/4" in diameter. It's far from a tight fit even in the Flattop Americans which are thinner than a Baron. The constraint is going to be the existing threads on the FP section. The Baron I have with me appears to be about 5/16".
 
I would definitely be interested.
The first time I saw one of those "bling" pens, I asked myself, "what's with the oriental stuff?" I still haven't figure out why every high end kit has an asian flair.
I'm with Gerry and Ed.
 
Originally posted by wood-of-1kind
<br />.....The samples that I received were for slimlines and although the pricing is very good it still is not substantially better than what our current suppliers are selling for.....
Click to expand...

I'm wondering how you define affordable?

I don't mean to be negative and if you can pull it off, that would be great; but to me, "affordable high end pen" sounds like an oxymoron?? Higher quality kits are going to cost more than the average mass produced kits like the slimlines etc. Just the nature of the beast.

And I'm wondering if you can't get "substantially better" better pricing on slimlines, what makes you think you can do any better on the high end pen kits??

I'd love to purchase a Lexus at Ford proces; but it just ain't going to happen!!
 
Mostly because it says "Lexus" and we have been convinced it is better.

Witness the reliability lately of the top-end German cars coming in as "Least reliable" but NOT least expensive!

Cost and Quality are NOT synonymous.
 
Originally posted by mdburn_em
<br />I would definitely be interested.
The first time I saw one of those "bling" pens, I asked myself, "what's with the oriental stuff?" I still haven't figure out why every high end kit has an asian flair.
I'm with Gerry and Ed.
Click to expand...

IMHO it is because there is currently a big 'thing' with Asian, particularly Japanese made stuff, in the art world. There is a famous Japanese furniture maker whose products are almost as good as any puncheon bench found in most barnyards. But he gets tens of thousands for his stuff. Some Japanese pens sell in the thousands and I think they are garish.
 
Originally posted by ed4copies
<br />.....Cost and Quality are NOT synonymous.
Click to expand...

Probably would have been more accurate to say: "Cost and Quality are NOT "always" synonymous." There is still a great deal of truth in saying that you get what you pay for!!
 
I'll go along with that!

Knowing the price of gold and what is involved in these kits, the cost of the Emperor and others is "What the traffic will bear", not "Cost plus reasonable markup".

I think as Peter progresses, you will see this is true (if he has sufficient help from us to generate the order quantities needed.)[:)][:)]
 
I would be interested in emperors at discounted prices. I don't care for the other three. That said, if it would have to be redsigned, I would like to see the pen have a postable cap. I know, it would be very heavy when posted, but I have lost too many sales or had customers downgrade to a baron because of the lack of a posting cap.

In the lower end, I agree with some of the others in that I would like to see a slimmer fountain pen. Many commercially produced fountain pens are significantly slimmer than what we have available.
 
The reason the cost of the "high-end" kits is so high (other than metals pricing) is that CSUSA or PSI had to have tooling made to cast the parts for the kits. Tooling is very expensive and is amoritized into the cost of the kits. Once the tooling is paid for (usually a year or two) then the cost comes down or demand says they can keep the price high. Those parts are proprietary to the seller and not available to anyone else.

It's my bet that any high-end looking parts worth getting will be proprietary and not available to us. This means that to get something we design, we have to pay up front for tooling (tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars) or make an order big enough (paid in advance) that the manufacturer amoritizes the tooling into the kits.

Thats my experience with the casting business. What are your thoughts?
 
Originally posted by Rifleman1776
IMHO it is because there is currently a big 'thing' with Asian, particularly Japanese made stuff, in the art world....
Click to expand...

I gotta agree with you on this too Frank. I had a lot of friends in the Navy who would get tattoos with oriental characters. As a comedian has asked, do you think there are a bunch of Asians getting tattoos with random English characters?

Ed,
I need to thank you for your astute observation regarding "cost plus reasonable markup". It clicked for me.
I think that's going to simplify greatly, for me, the nagging question of how much to charge for pens.

Peter,
what figure goes through your mind when you say "large group buy"?
 
"Tooling" has traditionally been expensive because, if I understand correctly, it is labor-intensive and the labor is highly paid.

1. Chinese labor is NEVER highly-paid.
2. Chinese do NOT honor patents, so "proprietary" is not in their vocabulary.

It is said that the amount of Microsoft software that is pirated in China equals the gross national product of something like half the world's nations. If they were afraid of international lawyers, who is more prepared to defend their copyrights than Microsoft? Yet they don't!

FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
 
I would be interested in any of the high end kits at a discount price, and would gladly purchase them from you, as long as the quality is the same. How elaborate do you want designs to be, as I can probably do 5 or 6 designs....
 
Ed - It's true that Chinese tooling is somewhat cheaper, but not by as much as I would have thought. They may not care about proprietary as much as keeping customers. If they sell CSU parts to a competitor, they know that CSU will probably pull thier tooling and give the business to someone else. With the amount of competition over there, they cant afford to get a bad name and lose customers.
 
A few points to clear up.

Tooling is NOT 'high' from this supplier. If I purchase a quantity under 2K, I would have to post a bond and my money would be returned once a 'minimum' volume is reached. This seems fair to me.

As it stands, I need to purchase a minimum of 1,000 pieces + tooling costs to get this off the ground. Seems that this supplier is bending over backwards to land business and they have been extremely prompt with responses.

Seems that 'we' have many different requirements in terms of selection and this is not surprising given the diversity of our membership. Realistically I got to get down to one selection or one clone of a current best seller. The manufacturer will duplicate 'any' current design if I provide them with a sample. If there is an 'integrity' issue from members that do not believe that 'copying' a design is good business then please voice your concerns. 'Copyright' protection means little to Asia and 'everything' goes when it comes to 'borrowing' designs.

-Peter-[:)]
 
I 'know' that I can get better pricing on the 'higher' end kits. The reason is simple, it's called PRICE MARGINING. Randy, it's a big thing to give away a nickel on a .63 cent slimline but not a great thing to give away $5 on a $50 kit. There's more room to move and IMHO the 'higher' ends pens are currently overcharged despite the perception of higher tooling costs.

-Peter-
 
If there is an 'integrity' issue from members that do not believe that 'copying' a design is good business then please voice your concerns. 'Copyright' protection means little to Asia and 'everything' goes when it comes to 'borrowing' designs.
Click to expand...

Somewhere here there is a flaw in both logic and ethics. Whether copyright protection means little in Asia is not the issue. In most of the "Western" world, our countries have adopted the Berne Convention. Many of us extoll the positive aspects of our pen making, such as creating a unique work of either craftsmanship or art. How, then, can we justify copying the design of another without any form of compensation? It's one thing to reproduce a simple slimline. That's been done for decades. It's quite another to ask the supplier to just "knock off" a design such that we can buy it cheaper.

The ends do not justify the means, folks. I applaud the efforts to enter into a business venture that has financial merit, but a simple fairness doctrine needs to be applied or I will be unable to support or participate in the venture.
 
I have a friend in the U.K. who designed and now sells a particular electronic device. He has had it made in both Taiwan and Hong Kong. In one place they tried to knock-off the product. The other strictly adheres to it's promises with the customer. Unfortunately, I forget which is which. I'll have to ask him again.
Overlooked here, Peter is trying to enter into a fairly complex business investment arrangement. That can be scary. He is to be complimented for just considering this.
 
A copy of an existing design - <b><u>no thanks</u></b>! Warranty, customer service and inventory are valuable benefits provided by "mark-up" on pen kits. Stealing a design from existing suppliers is not ethical.

New design - <b><u>yes please</u></b>! Quality components and fresh design ideas - where do I sign up?[:)]

Chris
 
Well, I would not mind a copy of an existing pen, or a new one for that matter provided the plating is of the same high quality we expect from our other suppliers. I know I don't want complaints from my customers and I sure know anyone I buy the from will want the complaints.

As far as stealing the design, they are only protected for so long. Look at Delta Power Tools and how many companies have sprung up making copies of their tools. (don't as Williams N Hussey about what Grizzly did with their molder design- exact copy IMO)

Anyway, I would be in for some and I really like the idea someonme had about making a more deco style. Getting to 2,000 kits, that would be a whole nuther problem...
 
I would like something along the lines of the Gent/Statesman with an optional piece that permits us to build it with the ability to post or not post. We could build that pen to suite our customers desires. No Asian characters. One of the companies changed the nib of one of the pens from something we liked to something we don't like. Let's get that shape back. (I know it was a jr. so it's somewhat different)
We have an opportunity to vote with our pocketbook.
We can create a kit without anything in it we don't like and with everything we do like and then if we have complaints, we can go to a mirror and tell customer service all about it.
 
Originally posted by Paul in OKC
<br />Isn't this an oxi-moron, just look at the title to the thread.[:D]
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Not really. Are the pens that are made/sold by many members not worthy of such a reference? I'll take it further in referencing a 'certain' pen vice made an honourable member here that also fits this billing.[:D][;)]

-Peter-[:)]
 
I like the idea.

If you're going after something slightly different, I've been thinking of something along the lines of the Statesman and/or Jr Statesman but with a simpler geometric inlay instead of the carvings

* 0r *
Something like the Churchill but with metal parts in place of the black pieces, a simple carved/cast inlay in place of the striped bands, and the finial on the lower barrel the same size as the barrel instead of looking like it ought to post. Just a thought.

-Barry
 
Originally posted by Randy_
<br />..... I don't mean to be negative and if you can pull it off, that would be great; but to me, "affordable high end pen" sounds like an <b>oxymoron</b>.....
Click to expand...

Originally posted by Paul in OKC
<br />Isn't this an oxi-moron, just look at the title to the thread.[:D]
Click to expand...

Looks like Peter is not the only one who likes to copy the ideas of others??[:D][:D]
 
Here is a question that just occurred to me that I don't believe has been addressed. Suppose someone buys a few of these $50 pens for $45 and one of them is defective?? How does it get fixed? Are we going to have to pay for international phone calls and deal with someone in Taiwan or will Peter stand behind these pens or are we just screwed?

And another thing, since Peter is in Canada and most of us are not, are we going to have to pay higher shipping charges and perhaps taxes or custom fees that will offset any savings in the cost of the pens??
 
All good points Randy and worthy of consideration. How are current GROUP BUYS warranties currently being handled? I have no intention of paying anywhere close to $45 for a kit. A $5 saving on 'high end' kits is not what I'm after. Don't want to make any price commitments since it's too early in the game but my bracket is probably in the $10-15 range if doable.

If I manage to negotiate a good deal with China, I'll solicit a US based IAP member(s) to assist with the US distribution in order to keep shipping costs reasonable. Many issues to work out but I'm devoting both time and energy in this project. It won't appeal to all but I've already received some positive encouragement from IAP members that see the benefit that may result from this. If nothing else it's been a good personal business experience that I'm going through.

-Peter-[:)]
 
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I know what company makes the standard kits, ie. slimlines, cigars, euro, etc. Through my (limited) research I have not been able to find the manufacturer of the high end kits. Does anyone know these companies are?
 
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