absolutely disgusted! Hey Poppers-n-Pens!

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Ron Mc

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I have been very busy all day in meetings and I come home late to read posts in several forums to see what's going on.
There is a thread that absolutely disgusts me and I am truly ashamed at what I see.
Someone asked for help with blanks. That's it. Think about it...This is such a minor request in your lives that could have made a difference in several lives yet it was taken so far out of whack that I sit here in amazement.
I have sent so many members blanks over the years at no cost yet I now find this.:(
Poppers-n-Pens....E-mail me off line and I will be more than happy to assist you. You will be one of the few recipients of several of my custom blanks for a long time to come.

For everyone that posted a reply....Take a look at what you said. Would you have wanted to hear it if you were looking for help? For most of you I really doubt it. If your answer was "Yes" then how about everyone that answers your requests treat you this way?

I am really surprised at what I have been shown tonight and would recommend that several of you go to your shops and turn some pens to change your attitudes.

BTW...No need for acrylic....Your blanks will be wood. Send me a frisby and I'll add it to the blanks.
 
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The purpose of locking a thread is to stop further unproductive discussion of a particular topic. Purposefully starting a new thread along the same topic shows blatant disregard towards the moderators who try to keep this forum running smoothly.
 
I didn't see anything for sale in this topic, so I moved it to casual conversation.

The other topic was locked by a moderator because a post crossed the fuzzy line from heated discussion to personal attack. As long as the same thing doesn't happen in this topic, have at it. Have a civilized disagreement, have a heated debate, criticize ideas, but don't attack people.
 
That's awesome, Ron, that you're willing to send some of your custom blanks to help out. I like the suggestion in the other thread about having that image laser engraved on the ends of the pen. That would be pretty cool.

BTW, Poppers, I like that you're doing this for your student. I think it's a caring, compassionate gesture. Whether you're paying for the materials yourself or not, it's the fact that you want to do something meaningful. That, to me, shows that you have a big heart.
 
I too am disappointed in the locked thread.
It amazes and saddens me that this community, which has been so generous in the past, would find fault with someone asking for a contribution. If one looks at the top (and STICKY) thread on T&G, it's about FREE BLANKS AND KITS. That thread sends a message that one may ASK if they're in need.

Moreover, the key phrase in Popper's original post stated,
I would prefer if someone were willing to donate the blanks and the pen kits ...
That being said, If you can help, please let me know either way <b> be they charged </b> or free
Click to expand...
[emphasis added]

I've only been an active member here since I started making pens in Dec. '06 yet I've given away many blanks, been the recipient of several Gifts from various members, and EVERY time I post something as a WTB in individual classifieds or T&G, I have concern knowing someone may try to give the requested item away.
Thus, I'm just not understanding why feelings were aroused to the point of anger when someone asked for what they wanted.

Terrence, if you're reading this: I have a kit I'll never make. It's an Atlas or Patriot. Either way, PM with your mailing address and I'll send it to you.

Gary
 
What I personally have a problem with is the way the stuff was asked for. Gary nicely put in the parts most of us are arguing about, but what he doesn't put in is how that last sentence almost seems like it was added as an afterthought to an entire thread that is worded as if someone is asking for freebies.

IMO, the entire post goes on about this is what I need for a custom order and how the expectation is for some donations, then the very last sentence says charged for or free (again with the free)

I also think that some of the negativity come from the fact that this person has a very low number of posts and as someone pointed out, is looking at making money off members here by selling a product he is working on.
 
I will stick my head out knowing it can be chopped off any minute...

While I am with Ron on this, there are instances when it does go over. To ask for a special blank, indicate the quantity (3-4?), and ask for kits for it and indicate the plating too (even just hinted) is (for me) one of those RARE instances. I didn't post about it there but in defense to those who expressed how they feel...I understand them.

A while back I started a Christmas donation for those who need it. 9 out of 10, the ones who contacted me didn't need the help (IMHO). My feelings were confirmed by some of the donors too. I regretted ever thinking of running that thread and as of last month, I still get residual requests related to it. Sad but there are some amongst us who are not sensitive enough to know the distinction between WANT and NEED.

IAP members are very generous bunch and help a lot, be it knowledge, moral support, supplies, tools, money, etc. I myself am a recepient of most mentioned. RonMc helped me several times actually. That said, it is different when it is offered vs. solicited.

Maybe the post wasn't worded the way it was meant but my response is as I understood it.

Just my take.
 
Please Reread the OP. It says [paraphrasing]:
1. I am going to give a pen set to someone as a gift
2. I'll surely mess up some blanks
3. It needs to have these colors thus, Gold plating seems like a natural
4. I would PREFER someone donate these to me.
4a. IF any extras survive I'll donate them here or to your selected recipient
5. Free or for money, please let me know.

I don't see the whole post about "free" and I don't see the "if for money" as an after-thought.

I've re-read the entire locked thread several times and it still surprises me.
Grandparents, please stand up.
Now sit back down if you tell your children the baby is ugly.
Same difference.

Gary
 
Gary,

It is the mere reference and mention of words FREE/DONATE that made the difference. That is it. Would you mention those words if you don't expect it?

If you want to make a gift for someone...will you relly on others to provide the components?
Does it really NEED to be of those colors?
Does it even have to be a pen?

Just asking.

It is either YES to all or he just WANT it to be that way. I believe he can make a SPECIAL pen even if it was just made out of firewood.

FYI, My wife's pen is made out of a dull looking driftwood we picked up at the beach while we were still dating. Of all the exotic wood I have...that is the one she chose. Would I have chosen that? NO. But shows you what we think special is...failing to see it from the recepient's eyes.

There is an old saying...IT IS NOT THE GIFT BUT THE THOUGHT THAT COUNTS.
 
Gary, I re-read the post several times and I think your paraphrasing is still not taking things in context or being totally accurate. However, I apologize for my previous mis-characterization will agree that he is not asking for free until the end. That said, the post starts with Need custom... and then goes on to dictate what custom stuff is needed. When one reads this, they expect that there will be speak of funds trasfer, but the OP thought since he is not selling, he should be able to get whatever for free.


This is just a general observation not about this forum:
I grew up hearing a saying that went "beggars can't be choosers". I firmly believe this is a very accurate statement about how much of society believes. however there are many among us (not penturners, just people in general) who wish to choose or demand what they get for free. Some people gladly give in thinking everyone has a right to demand certain free stuff while others say if I'm paying and it's free, don't complain about what I give you.
 
My question is this, how is someone supposed to get something if they don't openly ask for it? To beat around the bush and hint about needing something is nothing but deceptive. To openly ask for something, whether specific or not is quite honest. The only people who take offense at such a request are those who choose to be. And just because one staes at the end of a request, not at the beginning, that they are willing to buy the items requested in no way means they are less sincere about it. It is an individual's perception which believes that they would rather get something for nothing.

In my life I have been at rock bottom but pride kept me from asking for any kind of help. I have since learned to ask as it is not only a blessing for me to receive but also for those who choose so, for them to give. If one has and freely gives when another asks shows selflessness. To judge the intentions of the one asking shows selfishness.

Funny thing is that those who have judged still support with thier money and votes programs which give to those who not only ask, but expect.[:D]
 
Mike,

I was surprised to see the OP's request saying his preference is for free stuff BUT I was more surprised to see the viperous response he got.
I gotta agree with Cozee: the guy was upfront about what he wanted. What more could we want?

How do most people deal with panhandlers and those down on their luck?
Do we tell them to pack sand, ignore them, or toss 'em a 2-bit?
I'm asking the question to tease out whether Terrence deserved the disrespect he received EVEN IF some didn't like his request.

Gary
 
The root of the problem wasn't whether or not it was begging, that is a judgment call that can only truly be made by knowing the intentions of the heart of the person asking. The problem was how it was handled. The poster, even though my son-in-law is new to turning and even newer to the board. Then a post requesting help was made and was met ridicule right from the beginning. Is that what this board is coming to? Is that how we are to treat new turners who ask for help, whether it be advice, items, or what have ye? Seems it was judged he was guilty right from the beginning.

I have lost much respect for certain members of this board because of how they handled themselves in this. It would have been one thing if the poster had a reputation of begging and getting people to give things to him all the time, but it clearly wasn't. Bright side is that I have gained a respect for other members and still, for those whom I have held respect, it has grown.
 
Gary, as Dario put it the wording is everything. I think if the OP had indicated in the first sentence that "I am giving a pen or two away and really need a few freebies" or perhaps "I need some stuff.... I can trade an item or send cash later" then comments would have been VERY different. I think some of the responses in that thread were a bit harsh personally, but I can see how some got their reasoning.

As to your other question, most people ignore those down on their luck. Some try to help those who seem like they want to climb back out, some try to help those who don't seem to care, and yet others feel like it should be everyone's responsibility to pull someone back up.

When I pass by someone asking for help with a cup, I generally don't give anything. I have seen people who beg walking away from their "gig" and getting into decent cars, much nicer than the one I drive. I have also had people who swear at me for not giving anything, or those who complain I did not give enough. I think it depends on the part of the country you live in as well as the location in relation to a major city. Of course, I have been in good moods and have given if the person was at least nice and kind to me.

Cozee, you said "To judge the intentions of the one asking shows selfishness." I don't think anyone was judging the intentions in this case, just the method used to get materials.

I also agree with Dario in saying "it's the thought that counts". Sometimes the thought is what someone really appreciates more than anything.
 
I don't think anyone was judging the intentions in this case, just the method used to get materials.
Click to expand...

Yet discounting his statemnt about free or charged. It isn't always the wording for at times, some only see and hear what they want when they want and at times without reading or hearing everything. Case in point was the clarification by trhe OP of the post. Seems that has been and still is being overlooked. Seems in this case it is ionce wrong always wrong.
 
From what I can tell Terrence is only guilty of a badly worded post. Had he phrased his original post any number of different ways, he'd have folks coming out of the woodwork to donate the things he'd like to use for this project. So why don't we all pile on and kick a guy around b/c he didn't word the intent of his post just so. Maybe it's just me, but when I read the original post, I read it as Gary paraphrased it. Okay, so maybe I'm the ignorant one. I especially homed in on the "and I'll send the survivors to anyone you choose". This did not say to me that he "intended" to destroy all but one. It DID say to me, "Look, I'm such a newb to this that many of the blanks I've tried to date did not survive the unintentional mauling I gave them."

Other things to think about. Is it just b/c some of us (me, Ron, etc.) have met Terrence that we have a different view of this than others? That is indeed possible. So why the such differently skewed views? Maybe it's human nature... maybe it's the nature of the internet (no real faces or personalities to attach to the poster). I don't really know, and it doesn't really matter. I do know this. One of our own asked for help. Yes, the request may not have been written as clearly as it could have. It's difficult to perceive the OP's intent from a series of words strung together. So what was our reaction to this request? The answer is obvious and it's unnecessary for me to spell it out. Others have already done that. Just food for thought, folks.

You know, it would be one thing if that were the end of it. But unfortunately it isn't. He has now been accused of trying to make money off of his fellow penturners through a DVD he is putting together... and educational DVD at that! I find this unconscionable. He's asking half (or less) than most others sell for. OMG, we're gonna make him a millionaire! First, I know just a bit about video production. I've been involved with professionally editting instructional videos for almost 20 years, and it ain't no picnic. Try it sometime. It's hard enough just using the footage from one camera, let alone two! If we were to try and figure the time he'll have invested in this video when it's all said and done, he looses money. And I don't care who owns the equipment being used. JMNSHO
 
IMO - it has to do with history.

If someone who had been on this list, and is well known, asked the same type of question, this would not have been a problem.

I think Poppers-n-Pens faux-pas was not letting others get to know him before asking for a handout. It would have been nice if he offered to pay for services and supplies.
 
I have been on the interent more years then I care to say.. I have learned that people have a hard time putting to words what they mean.. I for one have a hard time. There was a guy that was on a 4x4 site.. I thought he was the biggest asshat around. I almost didn't go on a run because he was going.. Everybody told me he was a nice guy.. So I went.. It turned out that he is one of the nicest guys around.. He would give you the shirt off of his back.. He just as a hard time putting to words what he means.. There is also the opposite.. What I call E thugs. People that hide behind a keyboard. They get real brave because they think nobody can get them. I never take to heart what I read. Only what I hear..
 
good post Hollister, exactly what i was thinking.

asshat? that's classic. [:D]

i've only read this thread as i couldn't find the original post, is it wrong to ask if someone could point me to it so i can see what all this hubbub is about?
 
I would have to assume the guy cant afford the supplies himself. I know I've sure been in that situation. Given that, I would cut him a little slack.
 
In MHO, if Terrence's 2nd post had been his first, the whole thing would have come out the way we all expect it to on this list.

All he had to do was explain his motives and he would have been looking at a pile of stuff coming his way. The way I read it, coming from a "new" guy, it looked like a cheeky request for "freebies".

So is it his fault.....no.......is it the fault of those who responded negatively....no.....

I used to see things like this develop, in inter-office memos, in the pre-email days...when you could go down the hall or call before the SH** got knee deep.

Things move at lightning speeed now.......<b>That's why it's so important to think twice before hitting the send button....</b>

So let's all be nice, have a drink and get a good night's sleep.
 
Well, since I appear to be the “asshat†and various other names, perhaps I should respond to this thread. I do not see where anyone actually challenges the accuracy of my remarks, rather the intensity of those remarks and my interpretation of Terrance’s original posting. Upon looking back at the entire situation, I regret the intensity of the tone of my remarks. I felt attacked by Terrance’s second post, and responded in anger, albeit couched in poly-syllabic wording. I did go over the top, and that was wrong.

I must point out that mine was not the only post that engaged in remarks that were rather personal and in an attack mode. This does not excuse my excesses, but those posters (and emailers) should note that they also are doing that which they did not care for in my posting. In short, name-calling is name-calling.

Disgusting was a rather intense word to use, as it has to fall in the same over the top category as my remarks were.

Another post placed the original request in the Trades and Giveaway forum and took me to task for not reading the sticky. A small inaccuracy, that is true, but the post was in the Individual Classified forum, which has a totally different sticky. I mention this since the poster used the T&G sticky to take me to task.

Charles Emerson Winchester III as a caricature on M*A*S*H was a minor shot at me. I do not apologize for my vocabulary, rather the misuse of it.

I am saddened that some members I feel I know took me to task rather severely for my posting. This does impress me that I overdid it with my post, and I will attempt to learn moderation from this experience and their words.

I am gratified that other members read the original post as I did and were willing to speak up and express their opinions, albeit in far more measured tones than I unfortunately chose to utilize.

As regards my discussion of the proposed DVD sales, there is far more under the surface of that subject than has been disclosed. I ask if any of our attorney members would be willing to speak on the subject of intellectual property and if it applies to this particular situation.

Also, I would like to explain why I apparently posted my inflammatory post after Curtis requested that the discussion be toned down. I took some time composing the post, and I was not aware that Curtis had posted his request until I looked at the thread after I posted my remarks. I regret that it looked like I showed no respect for Curtis’ position as moderator.

The above reflect my feelings on the saga of the past two days. I regret my part in it for a number of reasons. I over-reacted, and for that I apologize. Terrance, since it appears from all directions that I was out of line, I accept that I was wrong, and I personally apologize to you for my intemperate attack on you as a person.
 
Cav,
I, for one, have learned a great deal from you through my time on this forum. You still continue to teach. Teaching what humility means and what it means to be a man and take responsibility for your actions. Thank you.
Terrance, welcome to the insanity. It appears that your rite of passage was a little more rigorous than most.
 
I want to let everyone know why I started this thread...It wasn't to crank something up again that the mods decided to lock. It certainly wasn't done in disrespect and I truly believe they realize my intentions.
I posted this because several years ago I was what turners seem to call a "newby". I couldn't understand why no one would comment on my pens when I posted them or help. I noticed that this behavior happened in all of the forums and it made me feel like no one was out there to help me.
Then one day I posted a pen in a forum that started up an interesting conversation dealing with the difference between a segment and a decorative piece of wood. I steadily pleaded my case that I felt it was a segment to no avail. At the end of the long discussion I received some words of advice that pushed me to start creating pens like they hadn't seen before. I was determined to create segments that they could not say were "decorative pieces of wood". The fellow pen artist that pushed me to go way outside of my comfort zone knows whom they are and I have Thanked them many times.

Why do I share this? Because at that moment I realized that for some reason fellow pen turners would ignore or shun the so called "newby". This felt very wrong to me and I decided that it was something I would never do. I realized that it doesn't matter how many posts a person has or what their pen looked like. They are looking for positive feedback so that they know that they are on the right track. They want to know that the fight they had with their first pen or tenth was worth it. They want a reason to try again. That's it. Not much to ask for when you don't know if you are doing it right.
I also recall when my pen sales didn't cover my habit. Think back my friends.....remember? These were the days when I wanted to keep trying but didn't have the hardware needed to do this until my next pay day. These were the days when I would stand at my work bench with music on and draw designs and figure out how to make them. But I couldn't. No hardware. These were the days that I told my self that if I could ever start selling lot's of pens that I would always share with any forum member from any forum that needed an assist.
This is why I am the way I am. This is why when I receive an e-mail from a school boy saying that he is in wood shop and admires the pens on my website that I donate a wonderful box of wood to his wood shop class. That my friends is why you are creating the works of art you do. Not to sell them, or show them off, but to help when you can.
I have made requests over the years and am always amazed at the number of e-mails I get. This makes me my heart swell and I know that there are fellow artists out there that care! This my friends feels very good....doesn't it?
Why me and not someone else? Is it the number of posts? The fact that when I had lot's of spare time I would help in any thread I could? The fact that I have met so many of you on my business trips?
Why? We have seen so many new turners over the years that would love an assist. Please make them feel welcome. Someday you may need an assist and find that the person you ignored is the one that is more than happy to send you whatever you may need.

My offer still stands to send the blanks, kits, drill bits and bushings. These are such small things compared to what I have been given.
 
Cav,
You are a good man my friend. Keep up the good work by helping others! Unfortunately my work schedule doesn't allow me much free time any more and I am very grateful to see yourself and others help in any way they can.
Thank-You to all.

Now go have some fun creating a true work of art that is very functional!
 
As regards my discussion of the proposed DVD sales, there is far more under the surface of that subject than has been disclosed.
Click to expand...

Wow, and I was gonna retire on the proceeds that we were intending to scam from everyone!!!!! I can't wait to hear these details!!!!! Seems they are pretty juicey if you know that there is far more under the surface than has been disclosed. Heck, I didn't even know there was anything left undisclosed other than final cost and release date. Or did you find out about the subliminal messaging we've interlaced into it so that turners everywhere will send us free stuff?? Or the viruses and worms we've designed to corrupt the web sites of those who are potential pen sales competitors? Or is it the $99.95 sales price which will be triple billed to one's credit card?????

On the other hand . . . . .

Is it the fact that not every presentaion may or may not be included simply to cut down on viewing time? Or is it possibly the rumor that the DVD will be <b>free</b>, only requiring postage to be paid? Or is it the fact the presenters were aware of the filming and the possible inclusion of their demos on the DVD? Or the fact that footage from both cameras of their presentations would be supplied to them for thier own use?

Since you really do not have a clue as to what may or may not be on the DVD, or what it may or may not cost, or what the intentions behind the DVD may or may not be, it may be in your best interest to simply be quiet about it as what you have to say about it and the implications within your words may also be a topic of discussion for our attorney members.

The original and sole purpose of this DVD was so that information which was presented at the gathering could be passed along to those who were unable to attend just as it was, free of charge. That is, was, and will be the sole intention of future gatherings, the sharing of information for the equipping of fellow turners to help better themselves within their chosen craft. It was never the intention, no matter what has been said in other posts, to make a profit from this DVD. And if production costs could be lowered by combining the fliming of this event with a class project for credit and porfollio inclusion, so much the better. That is a common practice around here at the community college and I am all for helping out someone better their educational experience.

You know, you could have called me a jerk, poor pen craftsman, or even made a "your momma" joke or two and I wouldn't have flinched but I don't like insinuations that I am a shady person looking to perpetuate criminal activies on people I have come to view as a family. Nuff said.[}:)]

For those attending next year's MPG, your poppers will cost ya $19.95 each!!
(sorry, gotta make up for lost DVD revenue ya know!!)[:D][:D][:D][:D]
 
See again things get misread...wdcav1952 I was not calling you nor anybody else here a asshat.. I was saying that sometimes people come off that way.. Please, Please, Please understand.. I was not calling anybody here a asshat..I am not taking sides on this.. I can see everybody point of view.. This is one of those things that everybody is a little right and a little wrong..In my post I was trying to say that just about anybody can come out sounding like an asshat.. Write now.. It seems to be me..LOL.. My personnel feelings is that it is getting blown way out of proportion..
 
I just want to say one thing on this subject. Any time a large group of people are together there is undoubtably gonna be "instances" like this. That being said, this is the most incredible place I have ever been associated with. I can't even remember all the times that individuals from this site have helped me out, whether with information or equipment. I DEFFINATELY would not be where I am in penturning today (even though that's not very far) if it weren't for the good people on this site. Let's put all this behind us and put our energy back into pen making. Tim
 
Back in December I went after a member who was obviously pushing the envelope of personal attacks with about every other post he made. I made it public here on the board only after things exploded off board in emails. I got raked over the coals for it by other members, and was utimately banned for a short time and I personally extended the time since it was obvious that certain members were offended at me. Since my return I have tried to be a productive part of the IAP family, offering help where I can, whether advice or material goods. When it comes to material goods, I have by far given away far more than I have received and I have received a lot. I have a handful of local newbies who at times seem to take over my shop, elbowing me out. When the dust settles and the acrylic ribbons finally fall on the floor, I am a little poorer in blanks, kits, and supplies but to watch them leave with smiles on their faces is far more worth every kit, blank, drop of CA, and piece of destroyed MM.

Passing on what we know is what family is all about. Helping others out is what family is all about. No body knows one's shortcomings better than family and no one should stop family members from squabbling faster than another family member. No one shopuld forgive faster than a family member. With that, if in any of my posts concerning this topic I have offended anyone, including Cav, I sincerely apologize.[:)]
 
let's just all assume that penturners are a good lot and we can all get along no matter what happens with internet vernacular! i guess we don't need to assume that we're all good people, because we all know we are...

cheers to everyone for working out differences.
 
Originally posted by cozee
<br />
As regards my discussion of the proposed DVD sales, there is far more under the surface of that subject than has been disclosed.
Click to expand...

Wow, and I was gonna retire on the proceeds that we were intending to scam from everyone!!!!! I can't wait to hear these details!!!!! Seems they are pretty juicey if you know that there is far more under the surface than has been disclosed.

...

....but I don't like insinuations that I am a shady person looking to perpetuate criminal activies on people I have come to view as a family.
Click to expand...

Greg,

I think William meant something else and didn't insinuate you as a shady person.

For what it is worth, it maybe is a good thing for you to make sure all bases are covered. He did mention specifically about "intellectual property" and that is a good place to start. I actually think (and feel) he is helping you.
 
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Ok - before we are locked here :)

I would like to apologize to all for my comment made on the original post. I too frequent several internet message boards - and I understand fully the complexities of bringing forth your real intent from the confines of a keyboard. My offense at the original post is in the wording. I took it - probably incorrectly - that this person was asking for several free items. I guess to me, it seemed a bit excessive, since I have never asked for a free thing in my life. That's not how I do things. I realize and have really come to understand what a special site this is - the people here are unbelievabley generous with their time, donations, etc. It's a truly great thing. I don't know the dynamics however, of how people really know each other here - obviously many know each other in "real life", and/or have been here long enough to effectively know each other quite well. I have not been here long enough to have achieved that level of familiarity. In retrospect, I should have refrained from making any comment - and for that I apologize.
 
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