Finishing problem. Help!

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Woodchipper

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Mar 15, 2017
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Yesterday I finished four pen kits with wood blanks. When I finished the last one, I looked at it under the light over my lathe. It had what looked like scratches but were around the blank and were equally spaced. Scratches would be random, I would think. Checked all the blanks and they show the same thing. OK when viewed but the "marks" show up when the blank is seen at an angle.
Sequence: turn to size; sand with the grain 150-240-320-400-600; apply 4-6 coats of thin CA with a paper towel and quick shot of accelerator; polished with Hutt polish. Not sure if I can get a good photo to show the blank.
Adding to the sequence- Arrrggghhh!
I have looked at a couple of YT videos but each one has a slightly different approach. Your suggestions are most welcome.
 
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POSSIBLY it's fine sawdust left in the scratches left by heavier grits (150). Did you wipe down the blank before starting the CA? I use acetone but DNA or mineral spirits work, too, if you don't want to fuss with the fumes from the acetone. They just take longer to dry.
 
This might seem stupid, but depending on how you work, it might be the cause. Check the edge of your toolrest. Make sure it is dead flat and not nicked or dinged at all. If you have some minor imperfections in the tool rest edge and you have a tool that you use consistently for turning that may be slightly entering into the depression or ding, your surface will have a low spot at that point. Since you are getting the 'scratching' at regular intervals and repeatedly, it may not be your sanding at all, but a remnant from your turning. A few ways to see this a little better is to start with a really fine wet paper that is stiff - like maybe a micromesh pad. Wet the pad and then slide it across the blank spinning in the lathe. Be sure the abrasive is stiff and doesn't give. After a quick shot across the blank, look at the residue left from the wetsand. Look for traces of lines that go all the way around your blank - then look at your toolrest and see if anything is in the same plane. The stiff sandpaper will almost work like a sharpie would when sharpening a tool. The paper will sand those areas that are high and in contact with it, but will only leave slurry residue in the low spots. Do a little cleaning of the blank, touch up the tool rest and redo and see if the lines go away. Good luck!

Kevin
 
Kevin, the "rings" are equally spaced apart. If the tool rest was the cause, there would not be a "pattern" to the scratches or rings.
Ted, I wipe the blank after each time with sandpaper.
FWIW, I watched a 20 minute video by Lost River Pens. He goes into detail of what he does and why. Might be a bit involved for some but the results are outstanding.
Never had this problem before. Murphy's Law prevails again.
 
As I sit here contemplating the meaning of life and how it relates to an empty coffee cup, I have a load of wood so I'm going to take the day to experiment with turning, sanding, applying CA glue, polishing or buffing. Hopefully I can come up with an answer. Each step will be examined under light with a magnifying glass to eliminate one step at a time.
Thanks to all for your input.
 
All good answers given. I too agree that the 150 grit is way to low to start sanding. You would have to do a ton on sanding with 240 to get rid of those scratches. Very rarely do I ever start with anything lower than 400 grit. If so I did a poor job with my skew which is the last tool to touch any blank I work on. Sure would like to see photo of the blank with those scratches.
 
As I sit here contemplating the meaning of life and how it relates to an empty coffee cup, I have a load of wood so I'm going to take the day to experiment with turning, sanding, applying CA glue, polishing or buffing. Hopefully I can come up with an answer. Each step will be examined under light with a magnifying glass to eliminate one step at a time.
Thanks to all for your input.


John's (Woopdchipper) approach, to practice , analyze and learn, using "training" materials (specifically NOT those fine blanks that will be reserved for the work AFTER the training has been accomplished) is an excellent example of the right way to develop skills and/or get good at using a new tool, new method or material. I have been my own victim of my "Jump right in" approach, sacrificing some fine materials to the learning process.
 
I had a piece of wood that was drilled, no tube, so I mounted it between two HDPE no-stick bushings. Tons of wood so that is no problem. Played with different ways of applying it and different CA glues. For some reason, I never could get the Titebond medium to set up even with accelerator! Tossed it. Applied several coats of TB thin and got a decent finish with MM. I checked a couple of turned blanks that were set aside for one reason or another. Perfect and no "rings" in the wood. I'm going to drill and glue in a tube to see what I can do by going through the whole process including the MM.
Even tried a tube of HF glue. Very thin so you have to work fast. Handicap is the lathe only goes down to 350 rpm; get a CA shower. Some on YT apply it around 100-150 rpm.
 
Have you tried GluBoost? It is s CA formulated to be a finish.

Titebond and HF are an adhesives. I'm not saying they can't be used for CA finish, I'm just saying that isn't what they are designed for.
 
David, they are also designed to glue your fingers together if you aren't careful. Thanks as GB was on my list to try. Heard lots of good things about it.
Got a blank glued up, think it's walnut but can tell when turning; characteristic odor. Will turn and see what happens.
 
All good answers given. I too agree that the 150 grit is way to low to start sanding. You would have to do a ton on sanding with 240 to get rid of those scratches. Very rarely do I ever start with anything lower than 400 grit. If so I did a poor job with my skew which is the last tool to touch any blank I work on. Sure would like to see photo of the blank with those scratches.
I'm not sure if I can get a macro photo to show to show the problem.
Sand with the grain. Learned that in shop class in the 7th grade.
GluBoost- what to start with? Exotic Blanks carries it.
Off to the shop to see what I can do.
 
David, they are also designed to glue your fingers together if you aren't careful. Thanks as GB was on my list to try. Heard lots of good things about it.
Got a blank glued up, think it's walnut but can tell when turning; characteristic odor. Will turn and see what happens.

You got that right! I have some CA remover, kind of a gel form of acetone that works well, it stays on the spot and doesn't evaporate as quickly.

Question... why, when you glue your fingers together, or to a part, is it always your dominate hand and at some awkward angle. Then you have to use your non-dominate hand to figure out how to get out of the predicament. Asking for a friend. ;)
 
You got that right! I have some CA remover, kind of a gel form of acetone that works well, it stays on the spot and doesn't evaporate as quickly.

Question... why, when you glue your fingers together, or to a part, is it always your dominate hand and at some awkward angle. Then you have to use your non-dominate hand to figure out how to get out of the predicament. Asking for a friend. ;)
Or both hands are glued up. Had this happen to a friend. Try taking off the cap off fingernail polish remover (the olden days) with both hands glued up.
 
When I apply CA glue to the pen blanks, I don't spray accelerator on it, I put one drop on a towel and wipe it on the blank. I do not go back and forth, just one swipe along the grain.
 
Yesterday I finished four pen kits with wood blanks. When I finished the last one, I looked at it under the light over my lathe. It had what looked like scratches but were around the blank and were equally spaced. Scratches would be random, I would think. Checked all the blanks and they show the same thing. OK when viewed but the "marks" show up when the blank is seen at an angle.
Sequence: turn to size; sand with the grain 150-240-320-400-600; apply 4-6 coats of thin CA with a paper towel and quick shot of accelerator; polished with Hutt polish. Not sure if I can get a good photo to show the blank.
Adding to the sequence- Arrrggghhh!
I have looked at a couple of YT videos but each one has a slightly different approach. Your suggestions are most welcome.

Just want to check here...are you SURE they are scratches? I've sometimes thought I had left scratches behind, but after real close inspection (which usually requires me to use my close up glasses), sometimes this is a characteristic of the wood grain. The evenness of the marks, is why I ask... Can you get a much closer look, to see if its actually scratches, vs. a natural grain characteristic? Sometimes a characteristic like this, might only occur in certain spots along the length of the blank, and radially may only occur at certain points around, or may extend all the way around.

In any case...just a thought on grit. I think 150 is a rather coarse and harsh grit to start with for a turned pen blank. I myself will rarely start lower than 400, and then 320 only if I simply cannot correct something with 400. Even then, I'll often try to correct any such defect with a tool, and keep using 400 as the starting grit. I think 150 and 240, relative to a turned pen blank, are rather coarse. Its a scale thing, and you would have to have had pretty rough tooling, to need to sand at those grits, right? In the past, when I started pens, I would sand with 120, 180, 240, etc. I always had problems with scratches. Those lower grits DIG, even when you aren't really applying pressure, shred the fine grain, and otherwise, leave things a mess. Once I learned that there is a scale factor...and that turning a pen, a simple spindle, is not the same as turning a bowl or platter, and I started at higher and higher grits until settling on 400, sanding became a lot easier for pens. Sanding out 400 grit scratches is a HECK of a lot easier than 120, 180 or 240 grit scratches...and, it is far, far less damaging to the grain fibers. IMO even 320 can sometimes shred fibers, and for such a finely turned thing (blanks often end up only a few hundredths thick or so), coarse grits shouldn't be necessary.

This is often quite in contrast to bowls in my experience. I try my best to avoid tearout, and if I get any with a bowl or platter, I try to use scrapers, sheer scraping, etc. with sharp tools to clean it up. Still, if there are any remnants, 180 grit will usually take care of the issue a lot faster, and I will start at 180 or 220 grit with bowls and platters most of the time. The scale of these items, though, is SO MUCH LARGER than the scale of a pen, the scratch factor is quite different. Not to mention the difference in grain orientation, and the nature of engrain vs. long grain sanding and all that.

If you could get a close up picture of your pens, so we could see the marks you are referring to...it might help identify if they are indeed scratches, or maybe just a grain characteristic.
 
Problem seems to be solved. I turned a blank for the Metro pen cap and sanded it, starting with 150. I can see your thoughts as 150 might be a bit coarse. Anyway, I went 150-240-320-400-600, lathe off, with no problems. Applied six coats of thin CA directly on the blank and spread it along the blank, turning it manually. Lathe is 300rpm so I don't care to get a CA bath. Turn on the lathe and a shot of accelerator. I did go through MM but sanded off half of the CA! Arrrgggh! More thin CA with eight applications. Hit it with Hutt and a piece of an old towel. I found before I wiped off the excess Hutt, there were white stripes running the same way as the marks/scratches that I have seen. What to do? Tossed the piece of towel. I have a stack of coffee filters left over from building custom fishing rods- lint free for cleaning the blanks. Folded a piece and put a drop of Hutt on it. Did two applications and the blank is smooth and glossy! I'm tempted to go back and do the same with the other blanks- Hutt with coffee filter. Seems the nap of the towel was the problem. If something screws up, I always have a supply of extra tubes so I can start over. Have a bunch of other pens but they are all the synthetic (to use a generic term) blanks. No problem there.
Thanks as I always learn something from the members, no matter what the topic, finish, materials, etc. 👍
 
Tossed the piece of towel. I have a stack of coffee filters left over from building custom fishing rods- lint free for cleaning the blanks. Folded a piece and put a drop of Hutt on it. Did two applications and the blank is smooth and glossy!
Interesting! I've had a bit of problems with paper towel nap as well. I've tried numerous materials for applicators, but never coffee filter. Going to give that a try next time, as you are right, should be lint free! (Which is actually something that is hard to actually find...even "lint free" cloths and such, usually still leave something behind.)
 
Listen or not is up to you but I suggest lose the 150. learn to use your tools more. They cut and shape better than sandpaper.
I agree as I'm gearing up to do more than pens to display at a local antique and craft mall. I have used a 1" roughing gouge for years but acknowledge that a skew will leave a finish that might only need minimum of sanding. Plus, tools are faster to remove wood than sandpaper. As long as we are on the subject, anyone use a skew to finish synthetic blanks?
There is a saying: Use sandpaper like someone else is buying it. So far, haven't found that person.
 
I agree as I'm gearing up to do more than pens to display at a local antique and craft mall. I have used a 1" roughing gouge for years but acknowledge that a skew will leave a finish that might only need minimum of sanding. Plus, tools are faster to remove wood than sandpaper. As long as we are on the subject, anyone use a skew to finish synthetic blanks?
There is a saying: Use sandpaper like someone else is buying it. So far, haven't found that person.

I often use just a roughing gouge. They can give you a pretty clean cut...depends on just how you orient the tool to the blank. Normally you would use a roughing gouge strait on, right? You can angle it, though, bevel to the wood, with the cutting point kind of in the "corner" where the bottom of the U transisions into the side. This gives you more of a sheering cut, and you can get a real nice surface. It took me some practice to really get it right, and I'm still not perfect with it, but it will usually give you a cleaner cut than strait in. I have never been as skilled with a skew, as much as I want to be, and I do work on my skill, but a roughing gouge can be used to great effect if you are more familiar with it. The bevel ride helps keep the cut clean, and the more sheer nature of it helps when you get down to final diameter, to take finer cuts.

Another question for you. When you sand, is it only radially with lathe on? Or do you sand lengthwise as well? I will usually alternate for the first few grits. Lathe on/radial, then lathe off/lengthwise, etc. Once I get to 400, I just do lengthwise lathe off.

If you get a handle on using the roughing gouge at an angle like that, you shouldn't need to start any lower than 320!! Maybe higher.
 
Sand lengthwise with lathe off. Remember in 6th grade shop class. Dummy me started sanding across the grain. Quickly was told to sand with the grain. After all these years, can still remember his name.
Been turning as you describe, at an angle. I can get the corner of the tool real close to the bushing.
 
Sand lengthwise with lathe off. Remember in 6th grade shop class. Dummy me started sanding across the grain. Quickly was told to sand with the grain. After all these years, can still remember his name.
Been turning as you describe, at an angle. I can get the corner of the tool real close to the bushing.
Ok. Well, in all honesty, you really probably don't need 150 and even 240. I'd start with 320 and see how it goes next time. The nice thing is, if you are indeed turning your surface well with the tool, then the sanding process really just gets easier and shorter. ;)
 
I agree as I'm gearing up to do more than pens to display at a local antique and craft mall. I have used a 1" roughing gouge for years but acknowledge that a skew will leave a finish that might only need minimum of sanding. Plus, tools are faster to remove wood than sandpaper. As long as we are on the subject, anyone use a skew to finish synthetic blanks?
There is a saying: Use sandpaper like someone else is buying it. So far, haven't found that person.
Many people here know I am a big proponent of using a skew for all blanks and no reason they can not be.
 
The four pens used different woods.
I watched a YT video by Robert Gundel who demonstrated the bedan tool. It seems to have characteristics of a skew as he showed. I can get real close to the bushings and no-stick bushings for an accurate measurement. I measure the bushings and the components which can vary in dimensions.
Will be in the shop in a little while to work on a couple of the blanks that showed the hiccup. Will report back.
Edit: John T., do you use the skew for synthetic blanks?
 
Just did three blanks with the coffee filter and Hutt polish. Two came out good wit ho marks of any kind showing and one still has the circular marks around the diameter of the blank. I'm thinking it's either a sanding issue, CA application or a combination of both.
The only way the "rings" are visible is when the blank is slanted at an angle under light.
 
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