Where are our Knifemakers ???????

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OldWrangler

OldWrangler

Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
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Location
Spring, Texas, USA.
I got a knife today that is supposed to be 225 layer Damascus. I have heard that there is a lot of acid etched fake damascus around. This knife looks good but when I went to polish it, a lot of the damascus figure seemed to fade. I have some good macro photos to show someone who knows these things. The guy is selling a lot of his knives that may just be junk coming in from China. The sheath is a piece of cookie-cutter stamp-out in black leather that clearly must fit a dozen different styles of knife and doesn't particularly fit this knife well.

I'd just like to ask a good knife maker if there is someway to tell the difference and make sure. Can post pictures or PM to an email address.

Somebody help.
 
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OldWrangler said:
I got a knife today that is supposed to be 225 layer Damascus. I have heard that there is a lot of acid etched fake damascus around. This knife looks good but when I went to polish it, a lot of the damascus figure seemed to fade. I have some good macro photos to show someone who knows these things. The guy is selling a lot of his knives that may just be junk coming in from China. The sheath is a piece of cookie-cutter stamp-out in black leather that clearly must fit a dozen different styles of knife and doesn't particularly fit this knife well.

I'd just like to ask a good knife maker if there is someway to tell the difference and make sure. Can post pictures or PM to an email address.

Somebody help.
Click to expand...

The damascus should never fade. I have a few damascus knives and they never fade. Actually, polishing should bring out the damascus design. Could you send me a photo, and any markings the knife has on it? Dates, names, any wording or designs. I used to own a knife shop, and am pretty familiar with the different types..
Brian
 
I would think taking a few macro shots of it would help someone tell, but I'd guess it would be pretty tough without seeing it in person. There are a few knife makers on here.
 
Russianwolf said:
isn't Damascus a folded steel? if so how can you fold something to get 225 layers?
Click to expand...

They usually start with different type of steel sheets (say 5 layers)...
1st folding = 10
2nd = 20
3rd = 40
4th = 80
5th = 160
6th = 320

If they started with 7
1st = 14
2nd = 28
3rd = 56
4th = 112
5th = 224
6th = 448

Heat is used to weld or fuse the layers together. Using various kinds help accentuate the layers when etched since they will get "eaten" by the acid in different rates.

Usually the etched steel is rubbed then sealed with a coat of lacquer.

Too much buffing can end up smoothing and polishing the layers to even sheen and you cannot tell that it is damascus anymore.
 
Russianwolf said:
isn't Damascus a folded steel? if so how can you fold something to get 225 layers?
Click to expand...

Oh, I think I got you now. :biggrin:

Yep, 225 layers is very odd. Can be attained but difficult.

Start with this:
If they started with 7
1st = 14
2nd = 28
3rd = 56
4th = 112
and on the 5th, sandwitch a middle layer = 225
 
PM sent. Send me the pic if you want me to have a look.

If you want you can also buy "Etchant" (ferric chloride) from Radio Shack. Dilute with distilled water (1 water : 2 acid). Dip the blade in the acid solution for a few minutes. Rinse with water and repeat until you get the desired depth. If the pattern doesn't come out then it is not damascus.

On the final dip, rinse and again with baking soda solution to neutralize the acid. Dry and let the oxidation end. Coat with oil, wd-40, or anything to protect it from oxidizing.
 
Dario said:
Oh, I think I got you now. :biggrin:

Yep, 225 layers is very odd. Can be attained but difficult.

Start with this:
If they started with 7
1st = 14
2nd = 28
3rd = 56
4th = 112
and on the 5th, sandwitch a middle layer = 225
Click to expand...

see. I knew the math wasn't making sense. :biggrin:
 
Mike,

I believe that is how they did the original Damascus actually. The middle layer is the cutting edge and they can choose it to be the hardest (but brittle)...while the outer layers provide flexibility.
 
Damscus steel

Just a FYI for anyone interested. This is from my Time Life Library. damasc1.jpg

damasc2.jpg
 
Having worked with much Damascus I can say that acid is used to bring out the patern. If polished it will pull the effect out. You will still be able to see the patern but it will not stand out any where near if it is etched with acid. The acid blackens the carbon steel.
 
Hey George;

I've done quite a bit of knifework, both with damascus and differentially hardened carbon steel. I am fairly confident that I could ID whatever it is you have. If you are going to be down around Atascocita/Crosby anytime soon, your welcome to bring it by the shop. I'm here 8 to 5 weekdays. Drop me a pm for directions.

Some general knowledge on knife materials. Damascus steel is a misnomer. The process that was used to make the ancient blades in the middle east died with it's parent culture a couple of millinia ago, and can by definition never be recovered. Some people claim to have "Reinvented" a process for making a material that is similiar, but no matter how closely a modern material mimics the ancient original, it is not the same. Some will argue with me on that, but I'll stand by it.

Now that being said, there are many wonderfull modern blade materials that sometimes go by the trade name "damascus steel" The most common is "pattern welded" or "forge welded" steel. That is what has been discussed so far, composed of several layers of metals of differing composition, and then welded and folded to produce a pattern. These can vary widely, in both the component materials, and the process and QC of the manufacturing. Take a couple of mediocre steels, and no matter how skillfully you weld and shape them, you get a mediocre blade. Take a couple of wonderfull high quality steels and weld them with poor temp control and process execution, and you get about the same thing. Do the right thing with the right stuff and you can produce a one of a kind work of art that can be turned into a blade that surpasses the quality of anything made in antiquity. As with most things, You get what you pay for.

And finally, once the blade is shaped, heat treated, finished and polished, it must be etched to show the pattern of the materials. Even though the component steels are considered "different" types of steel, they are pretty much identical to the naked eye. The process of etching chemically darkens one steel more than the other, and makes the pattern more visible. However this is basically a surface treatment, and if the surface is removed, the pattern is very difficult to discern, regardless of the quality of the blade. It can always be re-etched however.
 
Jskeen beat me to it. It could in fact be forge welded steel. The problem with it is that any time you sand or polish the steel, you're going to lose the patterns on the surface until you etch it again in an acid solution. My personal favorite etchant for this is a weak Ferric Chloride solution, though others swear by a vinegar solution.

225 layers sounds dubious though. It can be done, but it sounds like marketing to me.
 
I finally found out about these knives and it is a Packistani fellow in MD. who says he has a foundry and machine shop in Packistan. I called him and we talked a lot. He says some knife makers are using low grade steel but his are 1095 and tempered to 61 rockwell. He makes custom stuff. I send him a drawing of the kind of knife I wanted to make and he said he is make a blank and ship it to me in 2 weeks at n/c,

Too good a deal to pass up. I told him I would have it tested when it came in and he said fine and he would even pay for the test. He just wants people to see the quality of his product. So like any place else, they can turn out crap or they can make good stuff. He said his knives are as good as any from Japan, England or Germany and a whole lot better than China. And they are priced right. He is currently selling on Ebay. His sheaths are not impressive but I make sheaths and can make one that will look good.

So that's the story.
 
Dario said:
Mike,

I believe that is how they did the original Damascus actually. The middle layer is the cutting edge and they can choose it to be the hardest (but brittle)...while the outer layers provide flexibility.
Click to expand...

Dario, that is only one way. Masters of the Bladesmith society prefer one steel. They start with a billet and keep folding until the desired effect is achieved. The steel they use is suitable for a cutting edge.
Most of the imported so-called 'damascus' is coming from India and Pakistan. Some is very poor quality and some is quite good.
Personally, I would pose a question like this on one of the many knife making forums.
 
Thanks! I took a look and it's really tough to tell from the photos. But, since he did volunteer the hardness testing, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. If you do have it tested, please let me know - I'm mostly just interested in what the overseas competition is making. :wink:
 
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