What EXACTLY is a burl?

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Texatdurango

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Is there a clear definition as to what a burl really is and should we as wood workers know or really care? A little searching for a definition brought up some typical descriptions:

"A burl is a tree growth in which the grain has grown in a deformed manner. It is commonly found in the form of a rounded outgrowth on a tree trunk or branch that is filled with small knots from dormant buds
"
"A large, rounded knot growth on a tree. The wood, Burlwood, has a distinctive and mottled grain makes highly figured veneers with beautiful swirled patterns."

"An abnormal, warty growth which usually develops at the base of certain trees. A cut through a burl reveals tight bunches of small knots or eyes"

The reason I ask is that more and more I see folks selling pens as burl that look like nothing more than slightly curved or wavy grain. Or folks selling wood, calling what appears to be straight grained wood, perhaps from a crotch in the tree or a root ball, as a burl. A few recently visited websites show regular lumber being represented as burl and it sure doesn't fit any of the definitions above. I guess what topped my curosity off was a visit to a friend's shop yesterday where he showed me his latest find... a mesquite burl which was nothing more than where the root ball had started into the tree. Wavy, yes but not a burl!

So where do we draw the lines, or do we need to?
 
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I was once of the notion that many are following - but an older timer pointed out the difference between a Burl and a Burr or Burr wood - (Burr wood, deformed type of wood in which the grain has been misformed)

But Wikipedia is mixed in the definitions -

A burl (British bur or burr) is a tree growth in which the grain has grown in a deformed manner. It is commonly found in the form of a rounded outgrowth on a tree trunk or branch that is filled with small knots from dormant buds. A burl results from a tree undergoing some form of stress. It may be environmental or introduced by humans. Most burls grow beneath the ground, attached to the roots as a type of malignancy that is generally not discovered until the tree dies or falls over. Such burls sometimes appear as groups of bulbous protrusions connected by a system of rope-like roots. Almost all burl wood is covered by bark, even if it is underground. Insect infestation and certain types of mold infestation are the most common causes of this condition.
 
George, I agree with you, but it will always come down to interpertation. I am glad you did bring it up though. Good point!
Steve
 
Yes, there are a lot of folks selling "burl" that is nothing more than figured wood such as curly wood. I see a lot of it in the classifieds where folks are calling their wood "root burl". Most of it is "root ball" rather than burl. I have cut up a huge quantity of root balls since that is pretty much all that my "Texas Collection Worthless Wood"™ blanks are made from and I would only consider a small portion of the blanks I make as burl. All of them have a lot of figure but very few are actual burl, IMO.

Like was said above, however, I think it comes down to interpretation. In my own opinion, a burl is an abnormal growth on the tree that is not related to a healed over broken limb or root ball.
 
There is no formal. written, agreed-upon definition of burl. For my purposes, if it doesn't have eyes, it's not a burl. As for the figured wood that has and continues to be sold as burl, it frustrates me but since I cannot quote a definitive source I simply ignore the posts. I do, however, feel that newer or less experienced turners sometime get the shaft.
 
Briar is a root burl. Curtis is right when he says that lots of the root burls sold are actually root stock but the Briar Burl, usually from Turkey, is an abnormal growth ( burl) that is dug up from the underground root system.

Burls, as I understand them, are caused by stress and or virus affecting the tree. They are often caused by external stress such as birds pecking, tree rubbing against each other, insects, and even bullets. Up here in Boston I find most of the burls we have grow close to swampy water leading me to the insect / bird causes.

Not all burls have the look of eyes and random swirling grain that we are accustomed to seeing. Some black ash burl, sycamore burl, cocobolo burl just to name a few have a more pronounced random yet parallel ( if that makes sense) grain pattern to them.
 
Hi,

Been waiting for someone to try and define this! Ever tried explaining why or what a burr is to a none wood savvy customer!!

Although I agree that a burr should contain eyes to be a real burr. But what about trees that there burr doesnt not produce tight eyes like those seen in amboyna. Elm for example has quite a loose swirly grain within a burr but does not produce a burr full of tight eyes, more small clusters of larger eyes. So does that mean you wouldnt class it as a burr?
greggas said:
Not all burls have the look of eyes and random swirling grain that we are accustomed to seeing. Some black ash burl, sycamore burl, cocobolo burl just to name a few have a more pronounced random yet parallel ( if that makes sense) grain pattern to them.
Click to expand...

Also can a burr only be reduced from a growing mishap, or would you count a growth defect where a branch has been lopped or damaged as these prodecu burr like eye areas too?

Also is there a difference other than language between UK/USA between burr or burl?

BURR - Growth defect within the normal timber, containing eyes
BURL - None normal grain, burr like but from tree damage/crotch/root ball, that contains a mixture of burr and curl/figure
???

PHIL
 
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philbaldwin said:
Hi,

Been waiting for someone to try and define this! Ever tried explaining why or what a burr is to a none wood savvy customer!!

Although I agree that a burr should contain eyes to be a real burr. But what about trees that there burr doesnt not produce tight eyes like those seen in amboyna. Elm for example has quite a loose swirly grain within a burr but does not produce a burr full of tight eyes, more small clusters of larger eyes. So does that mean you wouldnt class it as a burr?


Also can a burr only be reduced from a growing mishap, or would you count a growth defect where a branch has been lopped or damaged as these prodecu burr like eye areas too?

Also is there a difference other than language between UK/USA between burr or burl?

BURR - Growth defect within the normal timber, containing eyes
BURL - None normal grain, burr like but from tree damage/crotch/root ball, that contains a mixture of burr and curl/figure
???

PHIL
Click to expand...

This is where, IMHO, it gets a bit ambiguous. I have been under the belief that the only difference between a Burl and a Burr is where you live ( Burl in USA, Burr in England)
 
It's really not that complicated. Burl is the growth on a tree after it's been injured. Much as how the skin will scab over after being cut. Sometimes a burl will have eyes which are unmatured buds, but it doesn't have to have eyes to be burl and often doesn't. Many trees will create eyes, Birdseye Maple being the most well known, but that's completely different than the burl process.

It's possible to put a piece of crotch wood and burl side by side and not be able to tell the difference. Does the customer care? Do they want a signed certificate that it's burl wood? Not in my experiance. It's the beauty of the wood and the craftsmanship that went into making the pen that makes the sale.
 
Rmartin said:
...... Does the customer care? Do they want a signed certificate that it's burl wood? Not in my experiance. It's the beauty of the wood and the craftsmanship that went into making the pen that makes the sale.
Click to expand...

I think your missing my point, I don't think a certificate is necessary, maybe I should have elaborated a bit.

Remember the friend I mentioned? The reason he was beaming from ear to ear over his new "burl" was that he had just paid a pretty penny for it BECAUSE he was told it was a burl. Had he known better, he could have told the seller to get real with his inflated price.

I think the problem lies within the wood turning community itself, we are taking advantage of our own! :eek: Perhaps if we educate ourselves less of the misrepresentation would occur.

I think Lou made a very appropriate comment by saying... "I do, however, feel that newer or less experienced turners sometime get the shaft"
 
I have been trying to ignore this thread, not because the issue is of no importance but in fact, the contrary does apply!.
It makes my blood boil when I see people taking advantage of others, for their own financial game and this burl issue as taken so many for a ride a very long one indeed...!

It starts with the timber sold all over the world as Australian burls, when in reality they come from Tasmania and are not burls (some of them...), this I have been claiming many times before; in many wood forums including here in IAP, but no one seems to care, and this suits the big boys from the Industry, right to the gurgle...!

Then off-course is the wood sold as burl in all other countries, that have nothing to do with Australia nor Tasmania, but presented to the woodworking fraternity, exactly for the same reasons, which are the much high monetary return, when the word "burl" is mentioned or the product is "tagged" as such!

Unfortunately, the great success this lie has achieved, has been caused by the constant brain washing from those with great involvement in that industry, and a few small operators that tried to do the right thing, didn't last long or were forced to "play the game" if they were to survive.

Those on the receiving end, the pen makers in this case, particularly those with little experience and or knowledge of woods/timbers, are easily fooled by appearances, there is, they honestly believe from what they've seen and heard/read that, certain busy figure, are indeed from burls. They are not to blame, after all many other older experienced people within the pen-making or even wood-turn in general, are still buying wood as burl when in reality is not!

The different names from different countries on what constitute a real burl, is irrelevant really, as they all have the same significate or meaning in the end, only the attempt of those trying to make it fit, in what they want to be seen, known and sold as burls, makes the interpretation of the real thing confusing.

I have been ever so careful in correct publicly, anyone that calls some of my woods, burls, when in reality they are clearly identified as "Roots" and occasional refer then as also Root/burly look. This indicates that the particular wood or woods have a identical/similar grain found in certain burls, never I called them or tagged them as burls, ripping the financial advantages of such...!

This matter, is in the same category as the BOW issue, for very similar reasons so, and as much as I really told to myself, leave it alone, don't go there, say nothing..., this issue does push lots of buttons that I can never ignore or not to react. I apologize to those that don't really appreciate what I say/said, more than once or represent but, those that know me, wouldn't expect anything else, and that is also a fact!

I would like to thing that, some how one day, I could be part of the solution and not/ever part of the problem...!

I do sympathize with George's (Texatdurango) question and the sentiment behind it, he maybe doesn't like much of what is going on with this matter, either! Or maybe is something in the Moon affecting all the Georges around...!

PS: I just realized that Texatdurango has post his last post while I was fighting with mine, making mine a little out of "whack" now...! sorry.

Cheers
George
 
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Confused?.................................
Turn PLASTIC!:biggrin:
Then only worry if it's Bakelite, Catilin, Cebuplast,Acrylic,Celulouid,Poly Resin,Alumilite, ETC.:redface:
There's no winning:rolleyes:​
 
OKLAHOMAN said:
Confused?.................................
Turn PLASTIC!:biggrin:
Then only worry if it's Bakelite, Catilin, Cebuplast,Acrylic,Celulouid,Poly Resin,Alumilite, ETC.:redface:
There's no winning:rolleyes:​
Click to expand...


I've got some BEAUTIFUL ALTERNATE BRIAR!!!!! VERY predictable!!!
 
OKLAHOMAN said:
Confused?.................................
Turn PLASTIC!:biggrin:
Then only worry if it's Bakelite, Catilin, Cebuplast,Acrylic,Celulouid,Poly Resin,Alumilite, ETC.:redface:

There's no winning:rolleyes:​
Click to expand...
TERNATE
ed4copies said:
I've got some BEAUTIFUL ALTERNATE BRIAR!!!!! VERY predictable!!!
Click to expand...

Are you sure it's ALTERNATE BRIAR.......OR IS IT ALTERNATE BURL...OR MAYBE JUST HIGHLY FIGURED PR?:confused:
 
If it was true that a burl is from an injury growing over itself, then just about every tree out there would have burls on it and that just isn't the case. A burl has absolutely nothing to do with physical damage. Yes, you can cut off a limb and the tree will curl over the limb, but that is not a burl, that is a band-aid, where the tree is only trying to cover the wound up for it's own protection.

The best way to describe a burl, is Asbestosis. If asbestos gets into the human lung, the white blood cells will attack it. The asbestos will kill the white blood cells though, and that will result in more white blood cells coming to the rescue. This process repeats itself until the lungs become a solid rock of dead white blood cells. This is exactly the same thing that happens with a burl, only the cause is not asbestos. Some places have more burls than others. The source could be in the ground, such as a mineral, it could be a DNA defect in the tree strand, and more likely is a combination of the two. Remember that all tree's have their own DNA just like people. They cross breed, like people. If you get into a dense situation for a very long time, then you end up with more inter relational breeding between tree's...like cousins breeding. Regardless of whether the DNA has a defect, or there is a mineral the tree picked up and is rejecting, the end result is the same...the tree found something inside itself and attacked it, but whatever it is attacking killed the attackers, bringing on an endless attack, resulting a huge cancer like growth.
A root ball is not a burl. A crotch is a crotch. Fiddleback is figure. A burl is always a cap...even though that cap can vary in shape and size, it is always a cap. A burl doesn't have to have eyes.
I agree that it totally sucks if someone isn't telling you what it really is, it sucks to get overcharged, and so much more...yadayada.
If I give you a square block and tell you it's a burl, is there any clues to help relieve suspicion? To this I would say yes. A burl grows over itself. Now if part of the block I gave you is close to the tree, then then it won't be as evident, but on the opposite side of the block, the grain pattern should be like rolling clouds. You know that a normal piece of wood, the grain goes straight. A crotch, the grain is in a V shape. A burl is like a storm and so is the grain. A root ball, the grain is usually like a circle...kinda like looking at the end of a log. Don't take all this too "how to tell" too literally either please. If you tell me the grain is wavy but it travels the entire length...I'm calling that straight grain. And yes, there are always exceptions to every rule.
 
Texatdurango said:
I think your missing my point, I don't think a certificate is necessary, maybe I should have elaborated a bit.

Remember the friend I mentioned? The reason he was beaming from ear to ear over his new "burl" was that he had just paid a pretty penny for it BECAUSE he was told it was a burl. Had he known better, he could have told the seller to get real with his inflated price.

I think the problem lies within the wood turning community itself, we are taking advantage of our own! :eek: Perhaps if we educate ourselves less of the misrepresentation would occur.

I think Lou made a very appropriate comment by saying... "I do, however, feel that newer or less experienced turners sometime get the shaft"
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get what you're saying. People get ripped off all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've bought a hand full of expensive wood blanks only to have 2 or 3 with good figure.
 
There is actually a lot to this issue. starting from people that are claiming wood to be burl when it is not, to burls that simply are not suitable to pen scale work. as in all woods or any materials for that matter. the pattern must be somehting on a scale that works for pens.
as for what makes a burl, nobody really knows. some say it is a defect in the tree itself, others say it is an Injury to the tree. What is known is it is a growth on a tree that is full of undeveloped buds. these buds are what create the eyes.
as with all things in nature the buds and formation of the burl is not limited to any specific size. on burl may form in bubbles or growhts the size of peas. this is very beneficial to the look of a pen. anouther burl may form in growths or bubbles closer to the size of an orange or grapefruit and when cut into pen blank size pieces yields little more than wavy figure even though it is genuinely burl. A more accurate issue to discuss is Pen quality Burl. It does not take a lot of experince in working with wood to become familiar that certain woods are sold as to their appropriate use. Cabinet grade plywood, stain grade, paint grade, A,B,C,D, X and a few others. any other grades of wood are simply made up by the seller and you are relying on the honesty of the seller to trust it. Even Museum quality figured woods is simply a made up term. there are no guidlines established in which to evaluate museum quality wood or display or whatever you want to call it. on the other hand A grade plywood is very well defined. Stain and paint grade wood is something you can expect the quality to be. I can send my wife to the hardware store to get 20 feet of stain grade trim and when she returns I have exactly what I expected to get. pen blanks are something that need to be selected eyes or even better hands on. I never buy wood that effectively costs as much as $96 a board foot without seeing the actually pieces I am buying. unless I buy them from a never fail source like AS. To do so is simply foolish.
I have just a little hands on experience of what it takes to come up with "Pen Quality" burl. 500 lbs of burl yielded maybe and I mean maybe 40 or 50 lbs of pen quality wood, and it was all burl. at the price of the wood I woudl have to sell the blanks that came from the top quality wood for 5 to 6 dollars per pen blank just to break even and everything else is firewood. Or I can try to locate a market for 450 lbs of peppermill blanks and try to recoup the remainder of the money from pen blanks. still they are going to run 3 dollars each or so. Bottom line is I am only going to work so hard. after that the fire pit starts looking real inviting. in short burls are not easy to come by in the first place, and burls that work well for pens is even harder.
 
Jeff Powel hit it spot on as far as I am concerned. A healed wound IS NOT A BURL, it is a scab. I have cut and dealt wtih more pecan than most people (over 5,000 bf of pecan lumber) and after viewing hundreds and hundreds of trees with a local pecan EXPERT, I have yet to find a true pecan burl. This expert has yet to see a pecan burl and he deals with hundreds of thousands of pecan trees every year.

I have seen a fair number of pecan root burl blanks in the classifieds over the years and I still say they are NOT burl but rather just root ball! That is not to say there is no pecan burl but it is VERY uncommon. I have seen and cut LOTS of pecan "scabs" but they all contain the remains of a dead, broken limb inside.
 
On the other hand, a birl is a double gracenote played by pipers on low A. The real controversy is whether one plays a double strike (the purists like me advocate this) or a simple double slide on and off the hole (sloppy birling if you ask me).
:)
Doug
 
DCBluesman said:
There is no formal. written, agreed-upon definition of burl. For my purposes, if it doesn't have eyes, it's not a burl. As for the figured wood that has and continues to be sold as burl, it frustrates me but since I cannot quote a definitive source I simply ignore the posts. I do, however, feel that newer or less experienced turners sometime get the shaft.
Click to expand...

I agree with this 99.99999%.
The one exception to this is where there is no hard defined pupil in the 'eye'.
I've seen timber where the grain just seems to grow around and around itself without
ever forming the sharp center we know as the eye.
I'm not talking about curly, grain-reversing timber, but rather timber wherein the
center of an eye is softer than typical but still visible.

One thing is certain to me (that is, this is MY OPINION based on much experience):
there is way tooooooo much figured wood being sold as burl.
Curly != burl.

FWIW,
G
 
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