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jttheclockman

jttheclockman

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
19,440
Location
NJ, USA.
Well today was the first day I basically went into my shop to do some inventory. I have not been able to work out of my shop for almost 2 years come March. due to some medical issues. Have basically been given an all's clear within reason go ahead to resume normal activities so to me that includes working with machinery again.:) That is the good news.

The bad news is and I should have realized this but at the time not thinking about things like this, just about all my supplies in liquid form have gone bad. This includes all my CA, all my wood glues, all my Silmar41, and my epoxy casting resin 105/207. My epoxy glue looks like it survived I think. It has not discolored but have not tried it out for strength yet. Have not look at my finishing supplies but time will tell on those.

Anyway enough whining about that. I will slowly replace things. But on my hiatus from the shop I had plenty of time to think of projects and boy do I have plenty. A couple of pen projects involve using metal and resin together. I do not have alumilite so I can not experiment with it. In fact right now I can not experiment with anything so I will throw this question out there.

I know we all cast resin pen blanks and many use silmar and some use Alumilite and some use West systems 105. I also know many cast watch part pen blanks and other blanks that have metals in them. But these blanks are encased in resins and the metals are not affected. What I want to do is make pen blanks that have both metal and resin exposed and part of the blank.

So my question is which resin will adhere to metals such as aluminum the best. ??? Now some resins will be colored and some left clear depending on the blank. Before I went down I did make a blank with this in mind and used aluminum and black colored Silmar. I roughed the metal and cleaned with acetone but had a failure of adhesion as pieces broke off in the turning stages. I was going to try the West sytems epoxy resin thinking this may be a better adhesion resin.

Has anyone done anything such as I am attempting and if so what did you use and what are the do's and don'ts ??? Those that use the West system resin, is it a better adhesion resin???

Thanks all for the help.
 
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Glad you are back in the shop and sorry about the lost materials. I have this same project on my todo list also - I didn't think there would be any adhesion problems so I am anxious to see what you discover.
 
keithbyrd said:
Glad you are back in the shop and sorry about the lost materials. I have this same project on my todo list also - I didn't think there would be any adhesion problems so I am anxious to see what you discover.
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Keith, when I did the original test piece back 2 years ago, and I can not find the thread, the thought was brought up that I may have made a mistake. When I cast the blank I put it in the toaster oven to get rid of the stickyness of the resin and also to cure the resin better as I normally do when casting resin blanks of any kind. But what was suggested and made sense was that I may have caused a reaction with the metals. The heat may have caused the aluminum to expand and the resin to shrink. When the blank cooled the 2 materials now lost the adhesion. The metal returned to normal state and the resin now shrunk somewhat. I was not able to prove this or unproof it at the time.

So basically I am at square one. I will eventually do some testing of my own but was hoping others may have done this. Can not remember seeing something like this in one form or other but the memory is not what it once was.:)
 
I've done cast brass shavings and cast aluminum millings. If I recall correctly, I cast the brass shavings in Silmar 41 and the aluminum millings in Alumilite Clear. Both worked. I washed the metal in acetone to remove any surface oil before casting. Both resins adhered to the metal. There was some tear-out (bits of metal separating from the resin) when turning each. Turning on a metal lathe so as to take very small bites helped. CA glue filled any pits, and I covered the exposed metal with a CA finish.

The hardest part was getting the aluminum millings to stay suspended in the resin (and into the pressure pot in time).

Good luck, and I look forward to seeing your results,
Eric
 
John: I think you are spot on about heating the aluminum. I know from having aluminum siding on part of my house, that on hot/warm days you can hear the siding expand and contract. In your casting this movement would have weakened, if not broken, the bond between the two different materials. I have used the West System back when I built a ceder strip canoe many years ago, and found it to be a very good product to bind metal to wood or fiber glass when you don't want screws, nails, or staples to show. I have not tried casting with it yet, but I still have some unopened cans and will try if it is still good. Glad to hear you are back in the shop again !! Hope to see some of those ideas come to life in future posts. Take it slow and don't try to do everything at once. They say us old dogs can still learn new tricks, it just takes a little longer and a few more treats !! Be Well !! JIm S
 
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Hey JT, I'm afraid I can't offer any advice on the resin, but just wanted say that I'm glad you are now well enough to get back into the swing of things.

With Chuck now getting back into it, and hopefully, Butch joining suit soon, we can all look forward to seeing some cool and different stuff. :biggrin:
 
There was a post a while back showing a pic of a pen made with alum and resin. You should contact that person and see if they have any information to share on the subject.
I'll see if I can find the thread and post a link. I remember it being a black/blue rollerball.
 
One of my other hobbies is making things out of composite materials cured with epoxy resin and that often involve using an aluminum mold. One of the reasons aluminum is used is because it has a high CTE...meaning it expands and contracts with the temperature. Aluminum is great because sometimes a mold release doesn't work as it should and the composite adheres to the aluminum mold...one of the tricks to demold a part that is stuck to the aluminum mold is to heat it up and then plunge it into ice water. This almost always will cause the composite to separate from the aluminum.

The West System site isn't working for me right now so I can't see the 105/207 tech sheets but I would be surprised if their epoxy doesn't have a higher shear rate than Silmar 41. In the composites world Polyester resin is considered to be inferior to epoxy in all respects except for cost.

Hope this helps. Nice to see you back ... I'm looking forward to seeing some of your work.

Edit to add: There are literally hundreds of BisA, BisF epoxy resins and curative blends available. Think "outside the box" and explore what is available:). There are a lot more options besides 105/207.
 
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Yes I do believe the Lord works in mysterious ways. I just go to retire 2 years ago and next thing I know I am in the hospital for 2 weeks and countless Doctors and tests to follow. But the good part was that I was able to spend more quality time with my Mom. We all knew she was getting weaker and the dimentia was growing but hanging tough. I wish I had those days back. Now that she has passed I have to move on and keep my mind busy and with the doctors OK I hope to do just that.

I have some catching up to do but in due time I hope to be able to post some cool things. As you say Skip some of the old dogs maybe wagging their tails a bit showing there still some life there. Watching and following the Bash will hopefully get some of those creative juices going again. Hopefully some of the new and fresh talent as I believe there is will step forward and take over. With your work Skip and Chuck taking on a new path and a few others here there is creativeness still seeping out. Maybe I can add something or two also. Will see as the year goes on.
 
Charlie69 said:
One of my other hobbies is making things out of composite materials cured with epoxy resin and that often involve using an aluminum mold. One of the reasons aluminum is used is because it has a high CTE...meaning it expands and contracts with the temperature. Aluminum is great because sometimes a mold release doesn't work as it should and the composite adheres to the aluminum mold...one of the tricks to demold a part that is stuck to the aluminum mold is to heat it up and then plunge it into ice water. This almost always will cause the composite to separate from the aluminum.

The West System site isn't working for me right now so I can't see the 105/207 tech sheets but I would be surprised if their epoxy doesn't have a higher shear rate than Silmar 41. In the composites world Polyester resin is considered to be inferior to epoxy in all respects except for cost.

Hope this helps. Nice to see you back ... I'm looking forward to seeing some of your work.

Edit to add: There are literally hundreds of BisA, BisF epoxy resins and curative blends available. Think "outside the box" and explore what is available:). There are a lot more options besides 105/207.
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Hello Charlie

I am listening. You have my ear. I am married to nothing. If you know of something that may meet my needs better please let me know. I was going off materials I have worked with before. As I mentioned some of the casting I want is going to be colored but there are a couple ideas that I want to do the casting needs to be clear. Now I am familiar with epoxy resins turning yellow but from what I have gathered and can not get a straight answer from people who use it that West Systems 105 may withstand the yellowing effect because the amount left behind after turned is not much and the clarity will not be effected. Maybe you have better knowledge and steer me away from this thought.

I have looked at the differences between Silmar and west system 105 and can not find the answers I wanted. But I am thinking Silmar is more of a casting resin as with 105 it is an epoxy resin that is made for layering on and thin coatings such as bar tops.

Anyone with experience in this area I hope you share so we all can learn. Thanks.
 
In my 'experimenting' PR only adheres properly to aluminum when you don't want it to...Alumilite seems to have a better 'grip'.
 
I am super glad that you are able to get back to it! :)

My understanding on the epoxy casting resin 105/207 is that it has a very long shelf life if sealed in the container. Are you sure that it went bad? Perhaps for the specific use it failed, but is otherwise OK? If using the pumps, those can be cleaned and put back in service. Just a thought, no personal experience to validate the long shelf life, as I have not had the 105/207 all that long. :confused:
 
SteveG said:
I am super glad that you are able to get back to it! :)

My understanding on the epoxy casting resin 105/207 is that it has a very long shelf life if sealed in the container. Are you sure that it went bad? Perhaps for the specific use it failed, but is otherwise OK? If using the pumps, those can be cleaned and put back in service. Just a thought, no personal experience to validate the long shelf life, as I have not had the 105/207 all that long. :confused:
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Yes Steve. I had those pump things on there and what happens is they do not seal as tight as if the can had a lid on it. They gelled over. Doesn't look pretty.:)I can't remember when was the last time I used that stuff so it may have been even longer than 2 years. :)
 
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If the resin has crystallized put the bottle in a pot of hot hot water and stir it until the crystals dissolve. it'll work perfectly fine after the crystals dissolve. . I cast some Abalone the other day in epoxy that I bought 6 years ago and it worked great. The resin was a mass of crystals so I took the top of the bottle and stuck it in a pot of simmering water and stirred until the crystals were gone. Most dgeba epoxy will (eventually) form crystals when exposed to temperature swings.

My epoxy experience is limited to the resin infusion of composites and home made tubular composites made from ( home made) prepregs and latent curatives so I am essentially a rank amateur when it comes to casting.

If you have a lot of time on your hands, check out the Hexion stuff, Hexion.com - Liquid Epoxy Resins and Blends

I been using their resins and curatives for years and they're the best. There are only a few manufacturers of the actual epoxy resins in the world. West system, system 3, raka, mas, adtech.... you name it they are formulating their epoxy from resins/curatives they are getting from Hexion, Dow, 3m. Become familiar with the terms used and you can look at the msds of epoxies like 105/207 and see how it compares to the others.

You might want to Google some of the terminology as it can be a bit foreign to the average person.

Hope this helps.
 
John, I have a couple of alumilite blanks cast with metal chips (aluminum) in them. They were cast by John Dowell a.k.a. Wild Turkey. John is no longer casting blanks but he might be willing to share his experience with you.
 
My 2 cents are that although I agree with the heat expanding and contracting may have a hand in the problem, I think the bigger issue is shrinkage. I think the epoxy would work better because of that. I don't know how the blank would be segmented so if there are slices that will be thin I would be afraid they might let loose because of heat while sanding. Sounds interesting. Good Luck.
 
Welcome back John. Medical issues suck, period. We are glad to have you back!

I use Alumilte almost exclusively and my experience has been limited mixing metal and AL. I have found that when I seal the metal before I cast it, the AL adheres to it just fine. When I don't, well, then it's a crap shoot. ...Just my .02¢
 
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