Vacuum Chamber Build question

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Justturnin

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Ok I picked up a Vacuum pump from HF today and got some fitting to set up a jar to stabilize and dye.

Question,
How do you attach the fitting to the jarlid and make it vacuum tight? I was going to place amale quick release on it and got some 1/2" washers, some Epoxy and a coupling to attach to the fitting. Thr cupling does not fir tightly to the washer and even if it did it will hang down a good ways and I worry about it sucking some liquid in the tube. Also what type of tube do you use? I picked up some polyethelane (sp?). Will that hold up?
 
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If you use a quick release, turn it opposite of what you would do for air. Otherwise, if you have the female on the end attached to the vacuum pump, you will not be able to break the vacuum on the pump and turning off your pump while under vacuum may damage your pump. Can't help on the lid since I don't use jars. For tubing, 3/16" clear hose from Lowes or Home Depot works just fine.
 
Thanks Curtis

I am actually going into test mode to see what is going to work. I have a good bit of dry pecan as a guinie pig. I am putting males at both end to make moving my hose easier. Once I find what works and drop the $$ for a real vacuum chamber I will have a better feel for what I need and already have the best set up for me working. The hose I got was the 3/16 and I got a lot to play with.:)

If you use a quick release, turn it opposite of what you would do for air. Otherwise, if you have the female on the end attached to the vacuum pump, you will not be able to break the vacuum on the pump and turning off your pump while under vacuum may damage your pump. Can't help on the lid since I don't use jars. For tubing, 3/16" clear hose from Lowes or Home Depot works just fine.
 
Chris, just to be clear, I was suggesting that you put the male fitting on your vacuum pump and use the female portion on the end of your hose to attach to the pump. That way you can disconnect the host and break vacuum. Hope that makes sense.
 
Chris: I simply drilled an appropriate size hole in the lid, removed the paint around the hole and soldered in a piece of brass tubing. It worked for me Then I did what you will (Probably) do, somewhere on down the road. I went to a pressure pot setup.
 
HF Pump

Got the cheaper one. They had it for 99 and I used my 20% off coupon on it so it was $79.99... but then I got the 2 yr ext warrantee so I lost the discount but I think the warrantee will be worth it. Yes to the vacuum guage. It reads to 28 bars. I just completed my build.


What I did was drill out the lid smaller than the fitting and 'screwed' it in. I placed a 1/2" washer on top and inside all held together by some 5min epoxy. I am hoping the eopxy will hold the vacuum but I picked up some silicon to make some casting molds too so I can use that if need be.

Chris which Vacuum pump from HF did you get? also do you have a vacuum gauge and know how much vacuum you are getting with the Jars?
 
Sure does.

I just put it together and I put females on both side of the hose so the Jar and Pump both have males.

Chris, just to be clear, I was suggesting that you put the male fitting on your vacuum pump and use the female portion on the end of your hose to attach to the pump. That way you can disconnect the host and break vacuum. Hope that makes sense.
 
Chris,
Can you post a few photos of the setup? I've been thinking about doing sometype of vacuum chamber, but not wanting to spend the money on the pump yet.

Thanks,
 
Pics of my psuedo vacuum setup

Here are some pics of what I put together. The jar is an olive jar for testing before I start punching holes in my larger lids. My hope is this will be successful and I can get a real one soon. My test will be on Pecan w/ dye. Pecan is hard as a woodpeckers lips so if I can dye it I think I would be able to dye anything.:biggrin: That is Epoxy on the lid and not caulk.
 

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You need to put a second jar in your set-up between the pump and the way too small jar you are using to hold what ever stabilization material you are using ... I highly suggest you try Mesquiteman's "Cactus Juice!"

AND ... BEWARE of using GLASS IN ANY PRESSURE SITUATION! Vacuum is one thing, but PRESSURE is just making a potential grenade just waiting to go off in your face. Always check for scratches on any glass jar and do not use one that is scratched, cracked, or chipped.

I have great success using a LARGE glass dill pickle jar ... a gallon size. $5 or so at SAM'S. Throw out the pickles if a gallon is a life time supply and you need the jar now! You do not have to fill the jar with 'liquid', but instead have enough to completely cover the wood with allowances for that 'liquid' which is taken up by the wood, etc. A one inch 'cover' is what I use normally. Different density wood will absorb different amounts. Think along the line of Balsa vs. Oak ... unbelievable differences in absorption!

What looks to me from your pictures is that the instant you put the vacuum on you will fill the small jar with boiling foam ... and I mean instantly in that you will not be able to turn the pump off before damage is done and you and dead in the water with a ruined pump. I believe you should seriously shorten the vacuum line.

The second jar will protect your pump from any fluid that will be sucked up into your vacuum line in your present set-up. This liquid will NOT BE COVERED UNDER ANY WARRANTY you may have regardless of expense.

Also, solder any fittings you use in the lid. Much better vacuum than any washer use ... in a home-built system. You will probably need to remake the lid gaskets as the soldering heat will probably destroy most gasket material already in the lid.

The stabilization liquid you use will have volatile materials in the composition. These volatiles will actually boil the instant you put any vacuum on the jar. The boiling foam can enter your vacuum line and down into the pump it goes. End of pump and end of your experimenting.

BTW, it is not the amount of vacuum you pull, it is the time under vacuum that makes a difference. A 5 inch reduction in ambient pressure over several hours time will render results that will come close to 28 inches in a few minutes. Also, depending on where one's physical location is you may never be able to reach 28 inches of vacuum. It's a physic's thing related to being at seal level and at an elevated location.

This issue has been discussed here over and over again ... kinda like beating the proverbial dead horse. Use the 'Search' function on the Forum for 'vacuum' and be prepared for a lifetime of reading.

Mesquiteman is quite successful in using vacuum for stabilization and you should trust all he, and several others, have to tell you about the process. Some of us have been doing this for years with very satisfying results! :cool:
 
Thanks Fred

To cover you points.
The jar there is just for testing. I am placing small blocks in there to test penetration and I wanted to test my seal. I didnt think of solder then but may go pick up an soldering iron and do it that way on the larger jar.

No pressure here. This is strictly for vacuum. When I need pressure I plan to pick up one of HF's 2.5 gal pressure pots

Vacuum lines length, I made them long becasue I have not decided exactly where I was going to set up yet, figured it is easier to cut them then stretch them.

I looked for the large pickle jars with no luck. Thanks for the sams tip. I dont have a card but know someone that does.

For the boiling foam, I placed a relief valve by the meter, like mesquite man recommended in his vid, and allow the vacuum to build slowly. to keep it out of the lines. I am liking the second jar and had even though of it yesterday during my first test. gonna need a jar that I ca solder 2 inlets onto. I think I have a salsa jar that will work.

For my fist test I left it in vacuum for 1.5 hours which was about 30 mins after the bubbles stopped emerging from the block then removed. That was kind of my control. Today I will add some more color since I used red and did not have much and will test again but allow to soak over night after the I remove the vac.


Thanks again,
Chris
 
You shouldn't have much problem finding a large pickle jar. Most supermarkets carry a number of 'commercial' size products like gallons of ketchup, salad dressing and such and most have pickles in a gallon size. My local Walmast has them in stock. Even a smaller ocal supermarket has a small selection.

Jeff innorthern Wisconsin
 
JARRRRRS!!!!!!

Glass Jars seems to be extinct around here. Everything is in plastic. My mom works fo a company that is able to get some. So she is going to garther some and when I go vist one weekend I will pick them up.

You shouldn't have much problem finding a large pickle jar. Most supermarkets carry a number of 'commercial' size products like gallons of ketchup, salad dressing and such and most have pickles in a gallon size. My local Walmast has them in stock. Even a smaller ocal supermarket has a small selection.

Jeff innorthern Wisconsin
 
Glass Jars seems to be extinct around here. Everything is in plastic. My mom works fo a company that is able to get some. So she is going to garther some and when I go vist one weekend I will pick them up.

You shouldn't have much problem finding a large pickle jar. Most supermarkets carry a number of 'commercial' size products like gallons of ketchup, salad dressing and such and most have pickles in a gallon size. My local Walmast has them in stock. Even a smaller ocal supermarket has a small selection.

Jeff innorthern Wisconsin
Sam's Club, Costco, Gordon Food Supply.

I'm sure there are others in other areas that have the size jar you need.

I found one at an antique shop, but I use a hand pump from HF.

Gallon Jars & Jugs - Specialty Bottle
 
With all due respect, Fred, I have some disagreements with some of what you wrote below based on extensive testing, research, and advice from a retired chemical engineer who was the VP of Quality Control and Processes for Exxon Plastics before he retired. I will address them in blue below.

You need to put a second jar in your set-up between the pump and the way too small jar you are using to hold what ever stabilization material you are using ... I highly suggest you try Mesquiteman's "Cactus Juice!"

AND ... BEWARE of using GLASS IN ANY PRESSURE SITUATION! Vacuum is one thing, but PRESSURE is just making a potential grenade just waiting to go off in your face. Always check for scratches on any glass jar and do not use one that is scratched, cracked, or chipped.

I have great success using a LARGE glass dill pickle jar ... a gallon size. $5 or so at SAM'S. Throw out the pickles if a gallon is a life time supply and you need the jar now! You do not have to fill the jar with 'liquid', but instead have enough to completely cover the wood with allowances for that 'liquid' which is taken up by the wood, etc. A one inch 'cover' is what I use normally. Different density wood will absorb different amounts. Think along the line of Balsa vs. Oak ... unbelievable differences in absorption!

What looks to me from your pictures is that the instant you put the vacuum on you will fill the small jar with boiling foam ... and I mean instantly in that you will not be able to turn the pump off before damage is done and you and dead in the water with a ruined pump. I believe you should seriously shorten the vacuum line.

The second jar will protect your pump from any fluid that will be sucked up into your vacuum line in your present set-up. This liquid will NOT BE COVERED UNDER ANY WARRANTY you may have regardless of expense. Not all liquid will affect all vacuum pumps. Rotary vane vac pumps like used by HVAC technicians frequently get liquids and moisture sucked into them during the HVAC evacuation process. If you stop right away and change the oil, you will not necessarily damage the pump. I have sucked my stabilizing resin into my vac pump a couple of times with no adverse effects. Of course the resin I use has no solvents in it so there is no issue with it eating up anything inside the pump.

Also, solder any fittings you use in the lid. Much better vacuum than any washer use ... in a home-built system. You will probably need to remake the lid gaskets as the soldering heat will probably destroy most gasket material already in the lid.

The stabilization liquid you use will have volatile materials in the composition. These volatiles will actually boil the instant you put any vacuum on the jar. The boiling foam can enter your vacuum line and down into the pump it goes. End of pump and end of your experimenting.
This is certainly not the case with all stabilizing resins. The one that I use has a vapor pressure of less than 5 mm Hg at 72°F which is a very stable material with very little VOCs at at room temperature. It will not boil until it reaches a really deep vacuum and has to be over 85 degrees to do so from my experience and from calculations done by my friend. If the temp is lower than 85 degrees, it will not boil. At my elevation, a really deep vacuum is 28.5" Hg with a maximum theoretical vacuum of 28.92" Hg since I am at about 1,000' above sea level and you loose 1" of Hg for every 1,000'.

BTW, it is not the amount of vacuum you pull, it is the time under vacuum that makes a difference. A 5 inch reduction in ambient pressure over several hours time will render results that will come close to 28 inches in a few minutes. Also, depending on where one's physical location is you may never be able to reach 28 inches of vacuum. It's a physic's thing related to being at seal level and at an elevated location.

This is not what I have experienced, researched, or had verified by my chemical engineer friend. I am no physicist, just a dumb college educated builder but have done a tremendous amount of reading and experimenting with vacuum.

The definition of a perfect vacuum (not obtainable, btw) is the absence of all molecules. The lower the vacuum, the less air molecules there are in the chamber and thus the wood. A 25.98" Hg vacuum at sea level is only an 87% vacuum or 87% of the air evacuated from the chamber. If you bump that vacuum up to 29.62" Hg at sea level, that is a 99% vacuum or 99% of the air evacuated from the chamber.

Remember, wood in very simplistic terms, is a bunch of straws filled with air that were filled with water at one time. As long as that air is still in the wood, the resin can not fill that "straw". The more air you can remove, the more resin you can get to fill those "straws" once the vacuum is released and the air inside those "straws" is compressed by atmospheric pressure. Pulling a lower vacuum for a longer time will not change the physics of removing the air.


Think of it in reverse...stand a pen blank up on your work bench. If you can not knock it over by lightly blowing on it, it will not help any to sit there all day long and keep blowing on it. However, if you use an air gun attached to your air hose and hit it with 50psi, it will blow right over.

This issue has been discussed here over and over again ... kinda like beating the proverbial dead horse. Use the 'Search' function on the Forum for 'vacuum' and be prepared for a lifetime of reading.

Mesquiteman is quite successful in using vacuum for stabilization and you should trust all he, and several others, have to tell you about the process. Some of us have been doing this for years with very satisfying results! :cool:
 
To all those using/planning to build a vacuum chamber.

Dont use glass!! Do some research about what you folks are building!!

Basic concept is you are sucking everything from inside the vacuum chamber. Having a glass vacuum chamber in a lab setting is one thing. But for most shops and the vacuum levels you/we are trying to achieve makes that a very dangerous endevour. All it would take is a tap, unseen crack, flaw in the glass, any number of issues. I will not say YOU will have the glass implode but it is possible!! I will say IT WILL NOT HAPPEN IN MY SHOP. There are much safer options for making vacuum chambers. Pressure pots, pressure cookers, actual vacuum chambers etc.

Play safe.
 
Curtis ... I do not have any objection to you adding to what I wrote. Matter of fact, quite the opposite. The more information one has the better off they are. I highly value your inputs on all that you write and trust in your past, present, and future inputs. After all, ain't that what this Forum is about ... the sharing of experiences! :biggrin:
 
Ok I just cut my last test piece w/ Polycrylic and Transtint dye. 0, zero, nada, zip, zilch, none, no penetration of color. Trying w/ DNA and transtint now.
 
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