Two Problems/Questions

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Todd in PA

Todd in PA

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Feb 16, 2021
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Port Matilda, PA
As I get into segmenting, I've run into some problems that I'm hoping someone could help me solve.

1. End caps. I love the look of end caps. But mine always seem to crack when I press the parts together. The short pieces of wood, long grain at the thinnest part of the barrel just seem so vulnerable to cracking. I have tried soaking the inside of the drilled blank with CA after drilling, then re-drilling before gluing in my tubes. And I have tried sanding to thin the brass tube before pressing. I'm simply wondering if other turners have developed tricks/strategies to prevent cracking. It's so heartbreaking. Sometimes the crack doesn't appear until 2 days later.

2. Metal. I love adding metal to my pens. The shimmer is very eye catching. Brass for gold kits, and aluminum for chrome. I have trouble keeping them glued. I have had more success with CA than with epoxy. But I don't have confidence in either one. I suspect that I'm using the wrong epoxy. I'm not talking about heat from drilling relaxing the glue-- they often come unglued on the table saw or bandsaw (or even when I just flex it a little with my hands to see if it's solid). What epoxy is the best for wood-to-metal bonding?

Thanks!
 
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I haven't really experienced cracking on end caps, so I can't be much help there. For gluing metal, I have used BSI, System 3, JB Weld, all the 5 minute variety and haven't had many issues. I always rough up my metal and then clean it with DNA. Never drill a blank with metal in it with brad points. Brad points will rip a blank in half almost every time that has metal incorporated in it. When a blank has metal it works best for me to pay attention the the way the metal lays in the blank. If it's angled to the right, I only cut left to right, if its angled to the left then I only cut right to left. Celtic knots, I pray a lot. I use carbide cutters. Hope this helps.
 
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Two HARD questions . . . .

First off, when I am worried about a blank cracking, I always ream out the brass tube so that the hardware piece is an easy fit into the tube end.
Then, no pressing is required, and therefore, no cracking.
I then glue the hardware piece into the tube using 5-minute epoxy on the metal-to-metal joint.
I do the reaming with a small hand reamer . . .
www.busybeetools.com

Buy Adjustable Blade Reamer Set Of 7pcs at Busy Bee Tools

B3125 7pc Adjustable Blade Reamer Set The blades have hollow ground cutting edges for minimal friction and the ends are center drilled. Size: 1/4" - 9/32" to 7/16" - 15/32"
www.busybeetools.com www.busybeetools.com

Second off, when I need to glue metal to wood, or metal to anything, I use 5-minute epoxy. . "Never" had a problem (well, couple of times in 10 yrs).
The epoxy brand that I use is the BSI brand (Bob Smith Industries) purchased at my local tool store.
 
Yesterday I finished three pens with (modified) end caps. Modified = I've started angling the cuts so that the wood has more mass on at least one side.

Anyway, I decided to wait until today to press the finished pens, with the notion that allowing to CA finish to cure overnight might make it stronger. Is this a thing?

Another question: when I assemble the pens, should I leave the ink out until I'm ready to gift/sell it. How long until the ink dries out? Should I buy the 'ink upgrade' if I'm hoping to sell the pen?
 
Not sure if this is answering your question or not but CA does need to cure as well as dry. How long that takes depends alot on amount of coats and temps it sits in.

Not an expert on ink refills but they should last a very long time if not used initially. They usually come with a seal on the tip. Buying upgrade is a subjective question. I always upgrade when selling a highend pen. Over $100. Sierras I will leave original in but will throw a upgraded replacement in after I find out what color the customer likes.
 
Todd in PA said:
As I get into segmenting, I've run into some problems that I'm hoping someone could help me solve.

2. Metal. I love adding metal to my pens. The shimmer is very eye catching. Brass for gold kits, and aluminum for chrome. I have trouble keeping them glued. I have had more success with CA than with epoxy. But I don't have confidence in either one. I suspect that I'm using the wrong epoxy. I'm not talking about heat from drilling relaxing the glue-- they often come unglued on the table saw or bandsaw (or even when I just flex it a little with my hands to see if it's solid). What epoxy is the best for wood-to-metal bonding?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
What drill bits are you using? Brad points are generally not the best to use.

Drill press or lathe? slow but steady, or take a bite, back out, take a bite, back out?

It is not just the type of glue, but the process as a whole.
 
Hi Todd, I'm sure you will get a lot of advise from the members here, probably more sound than what I have to offer, but anyway, this is my approach as it relates to your questions:

1) Cracking at assembly: Some pen kit styles are much more succeptible to cracking than others as you already eluded to, due to how thin the wood gets at the ends on many of them. Personally, I take extra care to make sure that the tubes are clean with no glue residue before I press anything in. If things seem too tight, I use a chainsaw file to clean/thin the tube a little more and then I apply a tiny bit of wax to the inside of the tube to provide a tiny bit of lubrication. If things are obviously too loose, because I filed too much, I use a cotton swab to apply a drop of CA glue inside the tube to help hold the parts more solidly after they are pressed in.

2) Metal segments: I like to use thin metal segments to separate things. Most of the segmenting I have done involves wood, metal, and reconstituted stone (Simstone). Early on my success rate was pretty awful, almost every blank tore apart when I was drilling - usually at one of the wood to metal interfaces. The process I have had the best success with is to use 5-minute epoxy to glue the blank up. I use 150 grit sandpaper on both sides of the metal to scuff up the surface and give it some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. I drill with a very sharp standard 118-degree point drill bit, usually a sharp carbide bit if I have one the correct size, and I drill very carefully and I only drill in about 1-1/2 times the diameter of the bit before retracting it to clear the flutes and to let the bit and the blank cool off. I also have been spraying my bit with Bostik BladeCote blade and bit lubricant before drilling. (I'm sure you will hear from others, but the brad point drills that come from most kit suppliers will catch and tear up your blank when they hit the metal - almost 100 percent of the time).

3) Ink Refills: Since I don't sell any of the pens I make (yet anyway), I always just install the ink that came with the kit. If I am going to use the pen myself however, for Rollerball pens I install a black, broad point, Pilot G2 refill. It is just my personal preference as I think the G2 is a nice smooth gel ink and it seems to last quite a while for me. If I were selling pens however, I think I would buy a few premium Schmidt refills to put in the "demo" pens that my customers would be writing with in order to give them the best experience possible. I would most likely also swap it out for a new one for the customer after the sale and re-use my "demo" refill in a another pen.

Good luck in working through the processes. I am sure that you will arrive at a regemin that works successfully for you.

Regards,
Dave
 
leehljp said:
What drill bits are you using? Brad points are generally not the best to use.

Drill press or lathe? slow but steady, or take a bite, back out, take a bite, back out?

It is not just the type of glue, but the process as a whole.
Click to expand...
66110CD1-7205-4E52-A0AA-ECEF9BA612C0.jpeg

This is my setup. Lathe drilling, slow speed. Chicago-Latrobe bit. I go slow, and back out to cool the bit with air from the shop vac frequently.

I will need to invest in a couple carbide bits. Looks like those are $40 ea. I probably just need 10.5 and 12.5. And/or abandon metal inlay temporarily until I get them.

Perhaps this chuck isn't the best since it only grips on 2 sides?

I also priced the reamers that Mag mentioned. I'm sure that's better and quicker than sanding the tubes out.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas. Trying to grow and improve. 🙂
 
Todd in PA said:
View attachment 326135
This is my setup. Lathe drilling, slow speed. Chicago-Latrobe bit. I go slow, and back out to cool the bit with air from the shop vac frequently.

I will need to invest in a couple carbide bits. Looks like those are $40 ea. I probably just need 10.5 and 12.5. And/or abandon metal inlay temporarily until I get them.

Perhaps this chuck isn't the best since it only grips on 2 sides?

I also priced the reamers that Mag mentioned. I'm sure that's better and quicker than sanding the tubes out.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas. Trying to grow and improve. 🙂
Click to expand...
You don't need carbide bits, you have good quality bits. I use the same type of jaws, just a different brand. Sounds like you're doing everything "correctly", a subjective term nowadays.
 
I concur with Ken, carbide bits are not necessary, I just have a few in my collection that I have acquired over time along with other tools that are quite specialized like drill bits specially designed for drilling plastics. At one time in my carreer I had three top notch machine shops staffed with toolmakers and diemakers so a lot of their standard practices rubbed off on me. It is more important that the bit you are using be sharp than the material it is made of, after all the bits you have are made for drilling through metal. I use carbide simply because I have it and it stays sharp much longer than high speed steel, especially when drilling through the stone based materials I use.

I also concur with Ken that it looks like you are doing everything "correctly".

Dave

PS I use a typical 2-jaw pen drilling chuck too, but it is just a different brand than what you have in your picture.
 
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A few years ago, there was some problems with one production run with the 2 jaw chucks form one company, I don't remember which. I think that got worked out and does not affect yours. BUT double check it. It could be a one-off out of alignment set.
 
I tried again this weekend with the same result. If I'm lucky, the tape and tight chuck holds everything together long enough to drill a straight hole. But when it comes out of the chuck, the glue has failed and the segments are separated. I sand off the glue, clean up the metal, and epoxy the whole thing back together onto the tube and gently clamp the ends. Sometimes the glue joints are good. Sometimes they're sloppy. Sometimes they're so sloppy the product is nil. I step drill at 9.5, then at 12.5. There's very little resistance on the 12.5, but that bit gets super hot even at just a half turn between coolings (~1/16"). So the process is very time consuming.

1. Can I use a coolant on the bit? I reasonably think that using lubricant directly on the wood will soak in and later prevent the CA from adhering.
2. Should I get a DRILL DOCTOR and sharpen my bits? I wouldn't think they'd be dull already, but I can detect some cutting better than others.
3. Also, I now suspect that the cracking that I blamed on the pen pressing may be actually occurring during the drilling. I found a hairline crack after drilling yesterday (the blank had no metal and stayed together). I addressed it with liquid CA in and out, and will redrill prior to putting the tube in.
4. I'm wondering if my chuck is out of alignment as Hank suggested, resulting in both heat and cracks. It's a PSI 2 jaw chuck. How do I check it?

Thanks for your suggestions.
 
I use denatured alcohol to cool my bits, works for me. Sharp bits, generally do not get :super hot". Get a drill dr, you won't regret it. If your holes are round and the bits not wobbling, your chuck is fine.
 
Are you adding a binder to the outside? - Such as adding 2 or 3 layers of gauze on tight and CA'ing the gauze. This will hold everything together at the segment joints while you drill. OH, but to do this, you will need to turn one end round for at least 3/4" for the chuck to grab and hold onto tightly.
 
KenB259 said:
I use denatured alcohol to cool my bits, works for me. Sharp bits, generally do not get :super hot". Get a drill dr, you won't regret it. If your holes are round and the bits not wobbling, your chuck is fine.
Click to expand...
Good idea! I thought it would evaporate too quickly, but drying=cooling so :). I assume I just pour some in a mist bottle and apply it that way. I'll order the drill doctor now then.

leehljp said:
Are you adding a binder to the outside? - Such as adding 2 or 3 layers of gauze on tight and CA'ing the gauze. This will hold everything together at the segment joints while you drill. OH, but to do this, you will need to turn one end round for at least 3/4" for the chuck to grab and hold onto tightly.
Click to expand...
I will also try this if the sharpened bits don't solve my problem.

Thank you both.
 
Todd in PA said:
Sorry I'm so needy this morning. Do you use the split point? They have one with this feature and one without.
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Mine has the split point feature, I haven't used it though. Mainly because I don't quite understand how to use that feature. I have been happy sharpening my bits without it. Other's probably will know more.
 
Todd in PA said:
Good idea! I thought it would evaporate too quickly, but drying=cooling so :). I assume I just pour some in a mist bottle and apply it that way. I'll order the drill doctor now then.


I will also try this if the sharpened bits don't solve my problem.

Thank you both.
Click to expand...
I spray mine on a paper towel and hold it against the bit. The towel gets pretty saturated, seems to work well and doesn't spray all over everything
 
I use the Bostik BladeCote dry spray lubricant available at our WoodCraft store. It is quite expensive IMHO, but I was relying on some of the reviews that said "Keeps bit cooler and cleaner...makes drilling the blank much easier.". So far it is working good for me. - Dave
 
I basically had to sand and reglue the whole works. One (with metal) turned out…one didn't. 💁🏼‍♂️

9ABED055-6534-4EE8-A6E1-9F8AA65A9BB1.jpeg
A444BBB4-71EB-44AD-A491-DF52F8DE32BF.jpeg
E7A4F21B-C8C3-46DA-AFE6-59B314424F21.jpeg

I'm pretty happy with the one I got! The one in the back is the one which cracked while drilling and it turned out fine too. I'm working toward a higher success rate than 50/50. 🙂. Drill Doctor arrives today. Thank you all for the very helpful suggestions.
 
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