Toilet repair question

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JimB

JimB

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Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,687
Location
West Henrietta, NY, USA.
Update 1/31 - It's fixed!

Here's the story -

I took my compressor and blew air into the holes in the rim. Air came out the other holes but not back into the tank so I knew the clog was in the back portion on the bowl. Next I spent 5 minutes cursing the toillet knowing I now needed to take it apart again.

I removed the tank to find that the new rubber gasket that sits between the tank and bowl was to big and extended to far into the tube and was blocking the passage to the bowl rim. Next I spent 5 minutes cursing at myself for not seeing this when I did this repair the first time.

I took the old gasket and used that. The problem here was that is is a funny one in that not only does it go into that hole but it has 3 'arms' that extend out and go through the 3 holes for the bolts that attach the tank to the bowl. I know I probably could have cut them off and used the 'new' washers but I wanted top 'do it right' so I tortured myself getting these back in. Finally, success.

I then put the tank back and hooked everything up. Turned on the water and watched the tank fill. Flush! Ah, and water comes from under the rim like it should! Success!

I would like to say the story ends now, but it doesn't. Water is leaking from one of the bolts that hold the tank to the bowl. I loosen everythinkg including the supply line and get everything lined up aqnd re-tighten. Turn on the water and the water gushes from the supply line where it connects tot he toilet. I turn the water off and disconnnected it. Turns out the rubber fitting there had turned on its side. Oh yeah, did I mention earlier that that little ruibber fitting had pushed up into the fitting and we had to fish it out?

OK, everthing goes back together turn, on the water again and the supply line starts leaking where the vertical and horizontal pipes connect. I take it apart AGAIN and use some of that teflon tape on the threads and fittings.

Everything goes back together again and..... success. Everything works.

Special note: I keep typing "I", like I did everything. I must point out that my wife was there every step helping me.

I hate plumbing. I hate plumbing. I hate plumbing.

Thanks to everyone who responded with all the suggestions.




Last year one of our toliets kept 'running'. Since it was one we rarely used and I was being lazy I just turned off the water. I finally got around to fixing it. I replaced all the guts in the tank. That fixed the running problem but now I have a new problem.

The toilet does flush but no water, except an occassional few drops, comes out from under the bowl rim to wash down the sides of the bowl leaving toilet paper and other 'stuff' on the sides of the bowl. I used a piece of wire in all the holes under the rim to see if they were clogged. I also used some lime-away to see if there was a lime build up. I also put the wire into the tank and as far into the pipe that goes towards (I think) the bowl to see if there was a clog. Nothing helped.

Does anyone have any idea what the problem could be?
 
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I would guess your water channel along the top of the bowl (that the holes come out of) is probably FULL of rust, lime, crud, etc. Have no idea how you would clean it. IF the toilet is one of the newer 1 gal per flush ones (since 80's??), I would consider replacing it. If its an old one that had a 2 gal plus flush (and, thus, worked), I would hope someone will tell you how to remove the buildup.

I ain't no expert.
 
The toilet is original equipment when we built in 1993 and is one of 3 identical toilets in the house. When I pushed the wire into all those little holes under the rim the wire would go in an inch or two and no rust or anything else came out.
 
If I`m not mistaken I believe the small tube in the tank has to be in the stand pipe and that is actually what send the water to the bowl.
Hopefully a real plumber will chime in and set us all straight.:biggrin:
 
papaturner said:
If I`m not mistaken I believe the small tube in the tank has to be in the stand pipe and that is actually what send the water to the bowl.
Hopefully a real plumber will chime in and set us all straight.:biggrin:
Click to expand...


I double checked that too. It's in the right place and filling into the the white stand pipe.
 
if the wire will only go in an inch or so, it might not be getting in as far as
any blockage.

You might try a guitar or piano string (with windings). That might be stiff
enough to allow you to push, yet flexible enough to make the 90 degree
turn necessary to get inside. And once inside, run it around like a snake.

If you can clear out blockage like that, then you'd still want to run something
through it to keep it clear. The Lime Away is a good idea, but how to get it
where you need it?
 
I am a contractor and my best guess is that a mold/crud buildup has formed in your water channel. I would run water down the plastic tube that comes up from the bottom of the tank where the feed tube goes to wash out all /as much lime away as possible. then pour a cup or so of liquid gell drain opener and open a window then let it sit over night. That should dissolve any crap in there.I say to clear out all of the lime away because you dont want to mix caustic chemicals it could kill you. Be sure to use a drain opener that is safe for pvc pipes(Do not use draino crystals) Also did you check to see if the gasket is blocking the tube at the bottom? I believe that the flapper valve and tube go to the same place some water goes to the rim and the rest goes to the bowl. Let me know if this helps.
 
Matt - I'm not sure what gasket you are refering to. The fill tube goes into the white stand pipe and that pipe empties OK.

Gary - I didn't laugh. I had heard that before and checked. It's all the way on.

I did push a 'plastic wire' into those little holes in the bottom of the rim. It would go in its full length of about 8 inches. I also put it in the flapper hole in the tank. That hole splits into 2 directions and it went in to both. Is it possible there is a clog further in there that is blocking the path to the rim but still allowing the toilet to flush?

Thanks for helping.
 
Did you (in the past) used some of those blue (or white) giant pill like bowl cleaner in your flush tank? If you did, it might have flowed down and clogged your flush line. It has a tendency to turn into a thick goo after left submerged in water for a long time and can turn solid again when left dry for a while.
 
I'm a halfway decent home plumber; but I don't have a clue. That is a new one on me and it hasn't come up on THIS OLD HOUSE that I can recall.:biggrin: But be sure to let us know what the solution is when you get it fixed.

Many of the folks that work at places like Home Depot are ex tradesmen who got tired of getting dirty........some, of course, are people who don't know their a....oh well? Anyway, maybe a call to HD or Lowes plumbing department will provide some help?? Also, there are some plumbing self-help discussion forums on the Internet that offer some help.



 
One of two things is happening and it is in your opening statement. You shut the water off for one year. This now let any sediment harden and become crusty so you probably have a blockage to the rim feed. The other thing is you said you replaced the inner workings. Did you replace it with the right one??? Did you install all the parts correctly. A flush gets its motion from emptying the tank not by the water coming in the tank. Is the float set high enough to allow enough water to fill the tank??? Does the flapper stay open long enough for the water to empty the tank??? If you answered yes to the above questions then you are looking for a blockage. If this is one of those water saver toilets and uses the air bladder than that could be faulty. Does the water in your sinks and bathtub in that room drain properly???? Having a clogged vent pipe can have ill effects also. If water in the other appliances drain fine then I would not suspect a vent problem. These are my guesses. Good luck and let us know what you find.
 
Is it possible that you have air in the pipe after turning the water off? I assume you have flushed several times in succession? I don't think it could be lime or any kind of calcium build up because everything was working (other than the running) when you switched off the water. If there was a lime issue you would notice it in the other toilets.

Believe it or not, I would flush, switch off the water so that the tank is empty, then pour a couple of pots of boiling water in the system and flush.

r
 
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Well, it still isn't fixed after I tried a few more things. Also my wife reminded me it was working OK (including water coming from under the rim which it is not doing now) when we turned the water back on after having it off and the problem only happened after I changed all the guts in the tank. here are some answers to questions asked.

* I have flushed the toilet many times to get water through the system. The tank fills and flushes the way it should except for the lack of water from under the rim (the problem).
* I got a wire to go about 8 inches into the holes under the rim and also into the flapper hole in the tank. That was the full length of the wire I had.
* I ran a hose from the sink into the flapper hole in the tank with the hose in about 8 - 10 inches and ran warm water for about 5 minutes. The water went into the bowl but nothing came down from under the rim.
* All other sinks and toilets work fine.
* I have not yet tried any other drain cleaner as I would need to leave the window open and temps outside are in the single digits and the window faces into the wind!
* We have never used one of those blue or white toilet bowl things that you put in the tank to keep it clean.
* When I replaced the guts I replaced it with a Fluid Master and replaced all parts. This is the standard kit you can get at HD or Lowes.

At this point I think I am going to need to take it all apart again unless someone has another suggestion for me. I hate plumbing so I am trying to avoid this.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.
 
Aw come on Jim, Plumbings fun--- NOT... every plumbing job I've had this past summer has required me to make at least 4 trips under the house, either to replace a broken pipe or connection or something... the crawl hole under the house is 2x2 ft (maybe if not smaller), the crawl space is about 24 inches and I can't do it on my knees.. (which are too old and bony to crawl on hard clay ground anyway) so I've learned to do the marine corp crawl... on you belly walking on your elbows... my elbows are too old and bony for that too.

Not sure I can diagnose your problem from this thread or not, but sounds like you did it all right.. try taking the stand pipe out and see if maybe it has an opening that doesn't match a channel in the toilet to channel water around under the rim. If there is one, you may have turned the standpipe to where it blocks the opening.

I would almost rather crawl under the house than to work on toilets.

Most of the time, unless it's broken off or has some separate problem, you don't have to change the standpipe when you replace the floats and filler valves.
 
I think the key is "it was all working fine untill you changed the guts". Sounds like wrong guts or installed wrong. Are you like me and don't look at the directions and parts list until about the third attempt, LOL.
 
Aw, come on Gary .. real men don't NEED directions..

If the toilet still isn't working, see the other thread on drilling live cartridges.

Take one un-detonated round and mount it under the toilet rim ..
now, get the hammer ... :biggrin:
 
CaptG said:
I think the key is "it was all working fine untill you changed the guts". Sounds like wrong guts or installed wrong. Are you like me and don't look at the directions and parts list until about the third attempt, LOL.
Click to expand...

You're supposed to read the directions???/ what kind of he-man are you?? LOL
I only look at the pictures 'cause most of the times the directions are written in Chinese, translated to French, which is translated to Spanish, which is translated to English so by the time they get to me, they make no sense anyway.

I put in a Moen shower valve the other day and even the pictures were in French. LOL
 
missing hose?

In the plastic riser pipe at the top there should be a small hose coming from the center of the pipe to the float/fill valve. if you have a jet of water shooting into the tank then the hose is missing. The hose directs the flow to the rim until the tank fills. The tank fill is usually slow and from the bottom of the fill/float valve.

Dave

Link to larger image: http://www.canpages.ca/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/toilet-inside.jpg
 

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JimB said:
.....Also my wife reminded me it was working OK (including water coming from under the rim which it is not doing now) when we turned the water back on after having it off and the problem only happened after I changed all the guts in the tank.......
It would seem this is the critical statement. Something that you did during the replacement of the fill valve has apparently plugged up the water flow to the rim holes. Presumably something was dropped in the drain (flapper hole) and has blocked the passage to the rim holes. I can't imagine what it is that you might have done; but do have a comment or two.


* I got a wire to go about 8 inches into the holes under the rim and also into the flapper hole in the tank. That was the full length of the wire I had.
First thing I would do is get a longer wire; but that might not help. It might be possible that a longer wire would displace whatever was blocking the water channel; but would allow the blockage to fall back into place when the wire is removed.

* I have not yet tried any other drain cleaner as I would need to leave the window open and temps outside are in the single digits and the window faces into the wind!
I would avoid this course of action until you have exhausted "ALL" other options and are ready to purchase a new toilet. Problem is that when you put a caustic chemical in the toilet, if that does not solve the problem and open the rim holes, then you have a toilet you can no longer work on it because it is full of dangerous chemicals!! (Same reason you should avoid chemical drain cleaners as well!!)

At this point I think I am going to need to take it all apart again unless someone has another suggestion for me. I hate plumbing so I am trying to avoid this.
Far as I know, the fill valve (FluidMaster) does not have any direct link to the rim holes so I doubt taking it out again will accomplish anything. I will again offer the opinion that you need to talk with someone who is a professional. Most of the folks who are offering advice here have dealt with one or two toilet problems and that is the sum of their experience whereas a pro will have dealt with toilet problems hundreds of times. (I've installed about half a dozen toilets and done twice that many repairs; but have never run into this particular problem.) And will again suggest you look for a plumbing oriented Internet forum or try for some help at HD, Lowes or your local hardware store.

Given that we have all of the information available and you haven't overlooked something or failed to mention something, if it were my problem, the next thing I would do is totally remove the toilet from the bathroom and take it outdoors.

First I would remove the tank from the bowl and set the tank aside. Then I would tip it in a position such that the back of the bowl is on the ground and the front of the bowl is up in the air. Then I would get a water hose and reverse flush the toilet to see if I could blow out whatever the obstruction might be. Placing the toilet in the position I described would give you a little gravity assist in possibly clearing the obstruction. You could also try compressed air if you have a compressor. Maybe you can dislodge whatever the obstruction is and it will fall back into the area visible through the main drain hole and you can grab and remove it.

Since the weather in your part of the world is probably pretty rough right now, you may want wait on this repair until after the Spring thaw!!:wink:

One more thing comes to mind. You could call American Standard customer service at this number:
1-800-423-5537 and see if they have a technician that can offer some advice.
Click to expand...

Best of luck, Jim!! I am about all adviced out. Hope you can find a solution to your problem.:)
 
You don't have a problem as BIG as the one you will have when one of those wires you are using breaks. Get a plumbers snake from Home Depot / Lowes as they are made to twist, bend (within reason), get pushed into and pulled out again and again.

Get a long 'snake' and clean out your vent pipes from the roof all the way down to the main cast iron pipe. Do all the vent pipes. Flush the line with plenty of water as you are doing this cleaning operation.

Then go to the basement and clean the mail drain line. By then you will be a rather proficient 'Home Taught Plumber' and can solve most problems on your own. Keep all this newly learned 'stuff' to yourself as I can just about bet you a new tool or something that the neighbor or some relative will want you to do their house lines as well... Good luck on your endeavors as I know this is a really stinky job!
 
ozmandus said:
You're supposed to read the directions???/ what kind of he-man are you?? LOL
I only look at the pictures 'cause most of the times the directions are written in Chinese, translated to French, which is translated to Spanish, which is translated to English so by the time they get to me, they make no sense anyway.

I put in a Moen shower valve the other day and even the pictures were in French. LOL
Click to expand...

LOML read the instructions while I grumbled at the toilet. Fortunately she speaks/reads Spanish so we were able to eliminate one translation:biggrin:.
 
Dave - The little hose is in place and goes into the tube like the picture shows.

Randy - thanks for all the suggestions. I did go to Google and some internet plumbing sites and tried all their suggestions. I also called Fluidmaster. They are the ones that suggested the Lime Away. I do have a compressor so I may be able to try that or use a flex hose attched on my shop vac and run it down into the flapper pipe to see if it sucks anything out. I'll probably try this next weekend.

Fred - Thanks for the suggestions but I don't think that is the problem. I believe if it is the problem then the toilet would not flush or the water would not flow quickly. That isn't the problem. It's just the rim holes. The rest of the water flows through the toilet very well. I also don't have the tools and I'm not even sure what or where the vent pipes are. Also, I think you are suggesting I go on the roof. There are 2 problems with that. It's covered in snow and I have a healthy fear of heights.

Butch - Buying a new toilet would probably be easier but then I will have been beaten by a toilet! If I do buy one I will be taking a sledge hammer to the old one.
 
If it worked properly 'BEFORE' you replaced the guts (then the problem is obvious)......do it again! You probably did something incorrectly or got the wrong stuff to replace in there. Did you visually compare the parts before reinstallation? As I tell my son......it's 'Home Ownership 101'......lots of fun!!!! LOL

Good luck.....


Barney :bananen_smilies022:
 
I will suggest that (like randy said) you take the tank off of the bowl.
Once you have that off you should have a good view to see if there is something in the water channel that could be blocking the flow to the rim.
You can take the tank off of the bowl while still inside so you don't need to wait for spring.

If you finally are beaten I suggest not using the sledge. Surely as soon as you break the porcelain you will find the problem.:at-wits-end:
 
Take the hammer and break up the toilet into fine little pieces. Cast the fine little pieces into pen blanks, make fine little pens, sell, take profit and buy new toilet.
 
Jim: Glad to hear you managed to solve your problem. I don't think anyone heard about it since you edited your origuinal post rather than making a new one so I have taken the liberty of posting your update in a new thread, here.

I know plumbing is not fun sometimes; but it sure beats shelling out hundreds of dollars to someone else!!




Update 1/31 - It's fixed!​


Here's the story -

I took my compressor and blew air into the holes in the rim. Air came out the other holes but not back into the tank so I knew the clog was in the back portion on the bowl. Next I spent 5 minutes cursing the toillet knowing I now needed to take it apart again.

I removed the tank to find that the new rubber gasket that sits between the tank and bowl was to big and extended to far into the tube and was blocking the passage to the bowl rim. Next I spent 5 minutes cursing at myself for not seeing this when I did this repair the first time.

I took the old gasket and used that. The problem here was that is is a funny one in that not only does it go into that hole but it has 3 'arms' that extend out and go through the 3 holes for the bolts that attach the tank to the bowl. I know I probably could have cut them off and used the 'new' washers but I wanted top 'do it right' so I tortured myself getting these back in. Finally, success.

I then put the tank back and hooked everything up. Turned on the water and watched the tank fill. Flush! Ah, and water comes from under the rim like it should! Success!

I would like to say the story ends now, but it doesn't. Water is leaking from one of the bolts that hold the tank to the bowl. I loosen everythinkg including the supply line and get everything lined up aqnd re-tighten. Turn on the water and the water gushes from the supply line where it connects tot he toilet. I turn the water off and disconnnected it. Turns out the rubber fitting there had turned on its side. Oh yeah, did I mention earlier that that little ruibber fitting had pushed up into the fitting and we had to fish it out?

OK, everthing goes back together turn, on the water again and the supply line starts leaking where the vertical and horizontal pipes connect. I take it apart AGAIN and use some of that teflon tape on the threads and fittings.

Everything goes back together again and..... success. Everything works.

Special note: I keep typing "I", like I did everything. I must point out that my wife was there every step helping me.

I hate plumbing. I hate plumbing. I hate plumbing.

Thanks to everyone who responded with all the suggestions.​

 
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